Zimmerman case: Cursive

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by JustMe, Jun 28, 2013.

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  1. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    Is it just me or did TG describe the benefits of Latin specifically, and not the benefits of a general "dead language"?
     
  2. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Is this conversation not in the context of education and classroom practices?

    You can draw a picture of you being sick to give to your boss, but I honestly thought we were talking about the art of teaching and learning cursive in school.

    IN the context of state standards and education, how would you describe cursive in todays world?
     
  3. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Not sure a picture of me sick in bed would be the best form of communicating that message to my P.:rolleyes:

    In terms of the teaching of handwriting, I stand by writers' needs to get ideas down in a fluid and fluent manner that can be understood by readers. As a writer of district curriculum, my consortium saw the need to include a standard regarding this. We also have standards for using technology to compose and produce writing.
     
  4. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Yikes.
     
  5. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    :beatdeadhorse:
     
  6. BumbleB

    BumbleB Habitué

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    80-90% of all English words have Latin or Greek roots. In order to properly decode and understand our language, it's advantageous to have a solid foundation of these languages. :2cents:
     
  7. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    We do not need to teach the Latin or Greek language to learn English. Do we teach affixes, of course. Does Latin have value, of course.

    Everyone can act offended by my comments regarding the importance of making Latin a mandated language in elementary school. I am willing to bet, as most in this country already have, that you would prefer your child learn a more current language as a language in elementary school.

    Go ahead and deny that Latin is slowly disappearing from our education system.
     
  8. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    No one said Latin needed to be mandatory OR in elementary school. How you reached that conclusion from what was written prior is puzzling.
     
  9. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    My responses had always been to certain things that are antiquated in our learning system and did not merit the mandatory instructional time. Look at my posts regarding this topic. It was about cursive as an elementary standard.
     
  10. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    On the contrary: I particularly wish my younger daughter had been able to take Latin in school: though she's a decent writer, an acquaintance with the ins and outs of Latin prose would have added a variety of arrows to her grammatical quiver, and it would also been a boon to her in acquiring the terminology of zoology, biology, biochemistry, and much more.

    I do know adults who learned Latin and Greek as relatively small children (not surprisingly, they were homeschooled - though that works pretty well when the parents have Ph.D.s in complementary areas and can cover the curriculum well into high school without much help from outside). I don't think any of them regrets it.

    I believe Caesar has also reported that the supply of classics teachers is not keeping up with the demand.
     
  11. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I am willing to bet you are in the HUGE minority.

    Classics teachers? or Latin language instructors? When I was a child latin was an elective...completely gone now.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Latin become a mandatory part of any curriculum. Where did you get that idea?

    As for your claim that Latin is slowly disappearing from our educational system, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that. Latin is edging out German as the third most popular foreign language (after Spanish and French), according to the American Council for Teachers of Foreign Language. Latin teachers are in demand in many parts of the country. A quick Google search brings up hundreds of news stories about the demand for Latin. This is the first result I saw, and though it's a few years old, the claims in it are still true today. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/nyregion/07latin.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
     
  13. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    As to everyone else, I'm feeling the Latin love. :wub: Thanks for fighting the good fight!
     
  14. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I honestly have no issue with Latin.

    I would not want my children taking Latin, as I personally find it an antiquated, nostalgic, and sentimental language. It has very little real world uses in today's world...IMO.

    That article you posted sums up my ideas perfectly about Latin.

    "Latin has quietly flourished in many high-performing suburbs, like New Rochelle, where Latin’s virtues are sung by superintendents and principals who took it in their day."

    "It’s the language of scholars and educated people,” said Jason Griffiths, headmaster of Brooklyn Latin. “It’s the language of people who are successful. I think it’s a draw, and that’s certainly what we sell.”
     
  15. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jun 29, 2013

    :D
     
  16. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Hmmm, what parent wouldn't like that?:whistle:

    Other than ordering in restaurants and a rare international vaca, I have little use for the two years of Spanish and 4+ years of French I took...but as far as etymological roots, yeah, a bit of Greek and Latin are quite helpful in surmising the meanings of unknown words.
     
  17. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    We have Latin at my school. As an English teacher, I'm glad we do, for reasons already given. Besides, Latin teachers tend to be really quirky/cool people who know stuff like that the little bits in a mosaic are called "tesserae," or that the Belgiae or somebody worshipped oak trees (genus Quercus), or how many parts Gaul had (three). Having that kind of knowledge around the old schoolhouse is invaluable. And I am not (for once) being facetious. If you knew me, you'd know stuff like that is important to me.
     
  18. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Any parent that realizes its a sentimental and nostalgic take on the language.

    I suppose if you think Spanish has the same influence in our country as Latin on a daily level, then your right. If you are going to deny the benefits of certain languages in the work force compared to Latin, your right.



    A BIT of Greek and Latin are helpful.
     
  19. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Pashtun, the high-performing suburbs were onto something, and they knew it. The less high-performing suburbs dropped Latin as the teachers aged and retired - that certainly happened at my high school - but now it's coming back, and it's coming back in much less genteel areas as well.

    The study of Latinate morphology in English is incredibly helpful. The study of Latinate sentence structure and text structure, to which I've already referred, however, simply doesn't happen outside of a Latin classroom. With practice, it's not hard to find in the writing of two average English-speaking eighteen year olds the markers that indicate which one took Latin.
     
  20. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Here's the thing. There are lots of things that we teach that aren't necessarily directly relevant in today's world. I mean, I can't think of the last time I had to calculate the temperature in degrees Celsius by hand, or measure an angle, or calculate electrons. Even though I don't do those things in my daily life, the skills that I developed while learning how to do those things are invaluable. Our goal as educators is (or should be) to empower our students with the knowledge and skills necessary to function in today's world. Sometimes that means learning how to do things the old-fashioned way, so that they can understand the hows and whys of a thing. All of us here obviously have the skill to turn on a computer, log into a website, and type posts. Great! For many of us, that's enough to get by in life. What many of us don't have is an in-depth knowledge of how computers work. Obviously, the problem here is that if no one ever learns how computers work, our skills at typing out posts will become irrelevant. If we neglect to help our students develop a deep understanding of some concepts, we will ultimately fail them--and society at large. Not every student needs to learn every concept deeply, but certainly every student should learn something deeply. For some students, learning about language, grammar, and vocabulary in a deep, meaningful way is what's going to help our society survive and thrive. I'm sorry that some don't find it useful, but I do. And I will fight for that.
     
  21. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    By the way, and I feel silly for even having to say this, but Spanish IS Latin. If you're going to imply the merits of Spanish, you have to understand that it IS Latin in modern clothes.
     
  22. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    EXACTLY. I 100% agree Caesar..100%.

    Yet the day to day practical applications is why I place a high value on a language like Spanish and a diminishing value on Latin. You simply get more bang for your buck from Spanish in today's world than Latin, from linguistics to work force.
     
  23. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    I might be a bit nostalgic and sentimental, but as a professional educator I do believe that knowledge gives us options... I can tell you for a fact that I never use the Pythogorean theorem in my life outside of school and tutoring, knowing the twelve pairs of cranial nerves is as best a nice party trick or maybe someday I'll make it on Jeopardy...but the sum total of my learning ( a journey that continues) has enriched my life, developed critical thinking skills, has offered me choices and opened doors in life.

    “The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go.”. Dr. Seuss

    Or even better:

    ipsa scientia potestas est
     
  24. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I would even make a "similar" analogy to cursive.

    Typing is the modern cursive.
     
  25. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Never disputed that.
    Anything one chooses to learn has value.
     
  26. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Unless your goal is to learn more than Spanish. Many would argue that by learning Latin first, a person will be better equipped to learn Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian, Portuguese....Instead of learning five different languages, a person would really just be learning one language with five (admittedly large and varied) dialects.
     
  27. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Pretty much, Caesar. Though none of the daughter languages exhibits anything very near the degree of complexity on the text level that Latin does and can.
     
  28. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Agreed.

    Honest question Caesar.

    Do you believe on a daily basis in this country that Latin has an equal amount of practical uses?

    Because honestly, there is absolutely no comparison to me. Latin has value. But it wasn't an opportunity as a BCLAD in teaching, I can't employ it as a career in translation where I live, I am not offered an entire cable package in all Latin, it is not a prominent language in any country, it simply does not have the same functional value as a language such as Spanish.
     
  29. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    Hmm. Confusing.
     
  30. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Hmm, I agree.
     
  31. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    ...Which is exactly why we should learn Latin first! Get the hard stuff out of the way, and everything that follows is easy-peasy. It's why I had to learn all the Ancient Greeks before I could learn Koine. Koine was the easiest, and my teachers didn't want us getting lazy on that one and thinking that the rest of them would be a walk in the park. Boy, did I come to appreciate the simplicity of Koine after learning Attic and Aeolic.
     
  32. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    Bravissimo! Now that's a Caesar talkin'.
     
  33. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    The words I need to know in Spanish they don't teach in Spanish! :lol:
     
  34. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    If learning Latin improves English communication, I say, yes, it has more practical uses than learning French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Korean, or Russian which are all offered through my school district.
     
  35. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    100% agree.

    As you said "if"

    If learning Latin(not a 2nd language), truly has this effect, than Latin should be required in every elementary school.

    Do they offer Latin at your district?
     
  36. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Pashtun, I took both Spanish and Latin in California schools. I've gotten much, much more mileage out of the Latin.
     
  37. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Yes. They do. Also, Arabic, German, and ASL.
     
  38. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    I've never taken Latin, but often thought I would have loved to have taken it.

    Having said that, the French I have taken has been incredibly practical.
     
  39. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    Wow, this thread went from being about a trial and the value of cursive to the virtues (or not) of Latin.

    I hadn't checked in on here since I posted and realize I can't keep up with threads on here anymore, apparently.:dizzy:


    As a side note: I learned French but if Latin had been an elective, I would have chosen it. All the aforementioned reason as to its value are the reason why. Just trying to keep up with this thread.:lol:
     
  40. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I am ok with we can agree to disagree.

    Many years ago, my wife and I had our first child and I got my first teaching job. I remember the hospital having to provide a translator for my wife. I remember the principal commenting on my BCLAD.

    Nowadays I have to sit in on teacher conferences to translate. I turn on the radio and the t.v, I hear several foreign languages. I drive an hour in 4 different directions and I am in an ethnic neighborhood where all the store front signs are in non English.

    None of these were Latin.
     
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