Zimmerman case: Cursive

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by JustMe, Jun 28, 2013.

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  1. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I was taught cursive too, but IMO it has no use nowadays. Typing is a far more important skill that children should be learning.

    What purpose does cursive serve nowadays, other than nostalgia?
     
  2. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Can you post the link? I must've missed it.
     
  3. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    No, I misread it, it is an added standard for California. Which I suspect will be removed.
     
  4. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Yesterday ,I visited several museum's in Louisiana with family. The museum had handwritten cookbooks, family letters written during the civil war ECT. Everything was written in cursive. It seems a shame to me that many people can't read cursive (including my 20 year old 2nd cousin) Think of all the historical documents in the Smithsonian.
     
  5. geoteacher

    geoteacher Devotee

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    I don't know what the future of cursive will be. However, for my part, while I don't require students to write in cursive, I do encourage them to read it. For that purpose alone, I use cursive on the board in my room. We often read over the information together, but it allows the students to see and read cursive on a daily basis.
     
  6. Bella2010

    Bella2010 Habitué

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    I'm about to the point that I don't care if kids write in cursive or print - I just want to be able to read it.
     
  7. bros

    bros Phenom

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    I dislike cursive - mostly because I can't really read it that well.
     
  8. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    Most kids write in an idiosyncratic amalgam of cursive and print. I do the same (and I am old enough to remember doing the old Palmer method with a genuine fountain pen). If I can read their stuff, I'm fine. When I write on the board, their only complaint is the way I make my old-style lower-case z's, which to them look like malformed y's. Sometimes I relent and make those little scored-through Eurostyle z's they like so much, but sometimes too I persist in my zeddish archaisms, out of sheer geriatric willfulness.
     
  9. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

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    Having watched part of her testimony, I find it more troubling that so many people across the nation find it easy to make fun or her.

    I find her defensiveness, dialect, and body language to be a typical representation of many of my students.

    Even if she were born and raised in Miami, if she spoke Haitian Creole and Spanish at home, she would most likely have been placed in an ESOL setting in school. Cursive was probably not high on her teacher's list.

    While cursive has been a part of the third grade curriculum and the required form of writing in fourth and fifth grades in the FLNGSSS (see standard LA.4.5.1.1, for example) it has not been taught and enforced with any sort of consistency for the last several years.
     
  10. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    It's out of control! Her weight, general looks...it's pathetic the number of adults who are being so mean and critical.
     
  11. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    The Scottish Rite dyslexia program that a school of mine used over fifteen years ago only used cursive, and the kids were very successful. I haven't looked up any brain research on cursive, so that may be one of those things that the kids were successful in spite of using cursive.

    My second and third graders have always been excited to learn it, but it's been harder to teach recently because so many children do not print correctly.
     
  12. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    I for one have not said anything about her weight or her "general looks." I am, however, "critical" of her merits as a witness where a man's freedom is on the line. Assessing the credibility of a witness is necessary in such circumstances: jurors have an affirmative responsibility to do so, and if they stray into what some fragile souls might regard as "meanness" in discharging this responsibility, so be it. This witness' deficiencies in intellect, emotional maturity, moral insight, and self-expression are patent. I do judge her, as the jury must, by the quality of her mind, and by the evident content of her character, an expression you may recognize.
     
  13. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    This is probably more accurate than most people think.

    She's 19 going on 20 heading INTO her senior year of high school. A combination of several things tells me A LOT about students like her.

    She reminded me of the 30 +/- Rachel Jeantel's I have every period.


    :dunno:
     
  14. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I was teaching 3rd grade, where cursive is introduced in our district. One of my students had such chronic letter-reversal problems, that he viewed himself unable to learn to write. He suddenly caught fire when he learned cursive. Seldom have I seen such a surge of confidence in a student! No more reversals!

    Now there is little support for cursive instruction in our district, with so many new "now teach this" mandates, that it's falling to the side.
     
  15. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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  16. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    BINGO!

    Printing isn't even addressed until 2nd grade and then it is given minimal focus but students get lots of criticism for the lack of skills that 2 previous years of public school decided to not address.

    3rd does teach cursive, but once "taught" it is never enforced until the students happen to get that 1 teacher a few years later that decides it is important. We do have HS and MS teacher that write in cursive. Students that get those teachers tend to be able to read it moreso than those that don't draw that stick.
     
  17. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    Interesting, by this logic, I should instantly dislike all reading material when in the dark, or when without my glasses, or when reading Bulgarian. Yet I do not! In fact, this may be the first time I've ever thought of Bulgarians, except to wonder whether they invented that wheat groat stuff my vegan wife eats.

    (playin')
     
  18. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Cursive doesn't tend to have figures that are the same. Print does. b, d, p, and q tend to be printed the same. n and u are the same also. The orientation is different, but basically they are the same exact figures just flipped or turned. Cursive also stops the pencil or pen from being lifted except to finish off some letters. The flow tends to help some students that struggle with print and knowing where to put the pencil next.
     
  19. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I see so many posts about teachers who write on the board in cursive. That's so interesting to me because my TESL program specifically advised us to never do that! I have always made an effort to print, print, print at all times--and I'm one of those hybrid print/cursive writers, so this is not always easy for me.
     
  20. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    That makes sense though, Caesar. Teaching 2 written forms while learning a language is extra work and more difficult.

    Even for students with disabilities, those that have dysgraphia or other motor issues, cursive is most often abandoned. But with abandoning the writing of it, they also abandon reading it because it takes a lot of time for those students with certain disabilities to learn it.
     
  21. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    I would think the same as print: to communicate. Yes, typing is an important skill but one important skill does not necessarily make another skill less important. I would hate to see printed books disappear just because e-books are popular.
     
  22. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Thanks for sharing that! Very interesting.
     
  23. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    This makes sense. In my mind, I'm holding a little wake for our deservedly moribund, curly friend. Requiescat in pace. Sic transit gloria mundi. Somehow a dead language seems apt.
     
  24. teachinnola

    teachinnola Rookie

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    I find it very interesting that people cannot read cursive... I guess because I was taught it as a child, and it doesn't seem that different from print to me. I write in a combination of cursive and print, and I've never had anyone tell me that they couldn't understand what I wrote or what any of the letters are. I also learned typing in late elementary school, but I felt like I couldn't really type well until high school (around the time I got an AOL IM account :p ). I can definitely type faster than I can write, but I think that cursive served me so well because I am able to write in the mix faster than I can write in print OR cursive alone. I don't write as much as I type, but I do write enough each day that it is invaluable.
     
  25. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    That´s interesting. I often mix the too as well.
     
  26. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

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    I'm not speaking of anyone on this board - I'm speaking directly about the number of people in other online areas.

    Her actions, words, and body language are distinct to the Haitian culture. I also find her deep distrust of law enforcement and the trial proceedings distinct to those raised in poverty.

    People are judging her based on the rules and expectations as they pertain to the upper-middle class. She's not middle class and she exists in a sub-culture that many people are apparently unfamiliar with.

    I only write in cursive - even on the board! I learned cursive before I learned to print, so it's much more natural and comfortable to me. I find printing to actually be incredibly awkward.
     
  27. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    The same can be said for 8 track tapes, short hand, cassettees, VHS, Latin...the list goes on.

    My point is, IMO, it does not deserve instructional time anymore. Instructional time is better served on students learning to type.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Not Latin.
     
  29. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I can't wait until we are all electronic and no one knows how to write or print (except for the few that are seen as archaic and unchanging). Then when there is a major problem with electricity production we will have a populace poking at their ipads not knowing what to do.

    Let's get rid of the written word. We have the ability to record everything. The deaf could still keep some sort of written language or have a robot that will sign for them as an accommodation. Let's just teach people to speak and listen. With technology, the rest is just unnecessary.
     
  30. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Care to elaborate, i don't understand your point.
     
  31. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Latin is a language well worth teaching and learning, Pashtun.
     
  32. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    How so?

    Of course teaching and learning anything has value if those involved are interested.
     
  33. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    The obvious place to begin is vocabulary. If academic English is a basket of fairly stubborn macadamia nuts, a knowledge of Latin constitutes a first-class nutcracker: it's good to be able to recognize -son- 'sound' in consonant (a sound made when articulators come together), sonorous (literally 'sounding', but the sense is 'sounding good'), and the like.

    Then there's grammar. It gets taught in ELA classes, of course, but there is nothing quite like being thrust into the analysis of another language to get one reflecting about how one's own language works. Unlike English (but like Pashto), Latin is a highly inflected language; like many highly inflected languages, Latin allows for more variation in word order than is possible to achieve smoothly in English (that is, Puer amat puellam and Puellam amat puer both mean 'The boy loves the girl', but the latter would be used when the girl is in focus, whereas in English we'd have to translate the second with something like "As for the girl, the boy loves her.") Exposure to the more intricately constructed sentences of Latin tends to rub off on one's ability both to read and to construct analogous sentences in English, with fairly obvious benefits to one's grasp of academic languages.
     
  34. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    You are misunderstanding me. I am not questioning the value of learning a second language. I am questioning the value of dedicating classroom time in elementary school to a "dead" language.

    I would be VERY disappointed if my children's elementary school made Latin obligatory, there are FAR more valuable languages that I would rather they taught in today's world.

    Same with cursive. Cursive has VALUE. I just think there are far MORE valuable things that classroom time should be dedicated to other than antiquated writing or languages.

    It is not that I don't think they have value, its that their value is much lower on the priority list of mandated standards.
     
  35. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    I'm afraid you weren't being clear, then, Pashtun.
     
  36. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Sorry, I was under the impression that we were in the context of elementary school standards.

    Anything that someone wants to learn has value.
     
  37. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    I'm not sure I'd call cursive 'antiquated'...as a teacher of literacy, I want my students to be able to get their words dwn on paper fluidly and fluently, in a way that can be read. I personally don't care if that writing is printed or in cursive or a combo (which is how I tend to write)...While much that we communicate is now electronically produced, there are certainly times and reasons why pencil and paper are more convenient, or preferable.
     
  38. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    or the only thing available.

    I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the reason teaching of cursive and print was given up is because it is tedious and it requires lots of correction. It isn't "fun".
     
  39. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    You don't think cursive is antiquated?
    What word would you use to describe its state in today's world?
     
  40. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    A way to get ideas down on paper quickly.
     
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