Would you give up your tenure for a 15-20% raise?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by ecteach, Jun 7, 2014.

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  1. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    Jun 8, 2014

    I would give up tenure for absolutely nothing if it meant I could legally get out of my union and be subject to my own contract.

    It should go without saying that I'd gladly do it for any raise.
     
  2. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    It is my opinion that we teachers bring a lot of this upon ourselves by allowing our districts and states to exploit us in this way. I think that we need to stop all this craziness: no more buying school supplies for our students to use, no more volunteering our time outside of contract hours, no more buying food or clothes or personal items for students, none of it.

    What we allow is what will continue, and at this point we have allowed ourselves to be abused and mistreated, especially financially.

    I have stopped sponsoring the club that I had run for seven years. I loved it, but I was getting overwhelmed at what I was being asked to do, on my own time and dime, without any sort of compensation or acknowledgement or anything. I do not plan or grade on my own time (including weekends) unless I feel like it (which is pretty much never)--my day-to-day planning and grading can get done during the school day, and if they can't then it means that I'm doing too much and I back off. I do not provide school supplies for students, even though I used to in the past (by stocking up at penny sales, which don't really exist in the same way anymore); students who don't have their own supplies are out of luck and will need to ask classmates to borrow supplies.

    I might sound like an ogre or something, but I'm tired of giving everything of myself and getting nothing, not even a personalized "we appreciate you" card from my administrators during teacher appreciation week. Shoot, I don't even get a generic "we appreciate you" card from admin. It's hard to really want to put every bit of myself into my job when no one gives a hoot and, what's worse, when everyone begins to expect, demand, and feel entitled to my everything, even when it comes at the expense of time and money spent with and for my own family at home. I'm not willing to sacrifice my own family for my job. Sorry (but not sorry).
     
  3. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    I totally agree with you. Except, since NC doesn't have a teachers' union, we don't have contracted hours. We are told our normal working hours but also told that we are expected to work any additional hours as set by our principal.
     
  4. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    I have a feeling tenure will be gone in a few years in all states. Not in the way the OP is taking. In the like "You became a teacher after 2024, no tenure for you" sort of way. Maybe 2024 is a bit early but it would surprised me if the teachers of 2034 don't have tenure. NJ had a great union and we're losing the tenure battle. Those who have it can lose it via evaluations and those who don't have it have to wait an extra year to get it.
     
  5. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    I feel like tenure works in the favor of the district most of the time. I.e. "We have this person for 3-4 years and know we'll just fire them at the end of it. Due to the hope of gaining tenure, we can keep them in line". I know many teachers, even ones who taught me when things were better when I was in elementary school, who were fired right before getting tenure just because they could get someone to replace them. I also feel like unions are mostly unless you're tenured.
     
  6. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    I know this is hypothetical and so this isn't a choice that people are being given. But what must be remembered is the state of the economy going forward. People around my neck of the woods (in education) are coming out of there holes, jobs are popping up left and right, and I think it is lulling a lot of folks into a false sense. Our economy is due for a hit in the near future. Nothing has changed as far as I can tell, since 2007-8. The only thing being: billion and trillion have slowly replaced the word million in our economic lexicon (not a good thing).

    I don't think I would give my tenure up for a 100% raise at this point.
     
  7. CFClassroom

    CFClassroom Connoisseur

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    I agree it sounds very risky. In many states tenure will matter less and less as teacher evaluations change, but for now it seems like a gamble.
     
  8. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    I'm assuming this means you guys didn't get a luncheon that was organized by admin? ;)
     
  9. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    We do get things here and there from admin. Mostly I was exaggerating out of frustration. I stand by the fact that we don't ever get anything personalized, though. Half a cold cut sub once per year is nice and all, but it would really mean something to me if I got a little note in my mailbox from my principal letting me know that he appreciated it when I did XYZ or whatever. I work my tail off at school when I am there, but my efforts are rarely (more like never) acknowledged. It's hard to sit through the last meeting of the year when admin hands out huge plaques and trophies to all the "coaches of the year" and gives these three-minute speeches about each one and everything they do for our school, especially when few or none of the academic coaches are rewarded in the same way or even mentioned in passing. This tells me that admin is fully capable of acknowledging good efforts and results and that they understand the value of that acknowledgement but that they choose to only acknowledge certain things/people. That sort of blows.
     
  10. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Honestly I would be shocked if tenure sticks around anywhere for much longer. More and more states are taking it away and NOT offering raises instead- I'd probably take the raise if offered. Like others were saying though, I wonder where that money is coming from. In my state, most districts have started "pay for performance." However, these same districts have had freezes or pay cuts for the last 5-7 years. How will they suddenly have money to "pay for performance?"

    My state has always been at-will but previously had a "probationary" and "non-probationary" status where there were at least some due process rights for non-probationary. Admins could still get rid of non-probationary teachers pretty easily by making up "evidence" but at least they'd have to do some work on their end to make it happen and they couldn't just make a snap decision. They completely got rid of the non-probationary status thing two years ago, with the same bill that introduced test scores as part of evaluations. Many districts do have a kind of "union" that is voluntary to join. My district has one and we have over 95% participation. However, since the school boards are not legally required to recognize the unions, some districts have simply said they won't negotiate with them anymore, and the "union" has no recourse. That's happened to two large districts in our metro area within the past two years. Both used to be high performing, desirable districts for both teachers and students/families and now both teachers and students are leaving those districts in droves. One district is just to the south of us, and used to be the highest performing on state tests (wealthy population). They were under 80% proficient for the first time in history this year (usually above 90%).
     
  11. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    And let me guess...many of these students are now headed to charters??? Sounds like the efforts to privatize education are going well.
     
  12. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Well, in this particular situation, the "charter people" are what started it all in this district. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, the people that are now running this public district originally wormed their way into it by starting charters that operated under the school district, and then got their own people elected to the board, and now they control the public district. A lot of the parents truly do know what's going on, so they're not going to charters. They're going to other public school districts in the area. My district has benefited immensely because we've gotten a lot of high SES and involved families from this district, as well as many experienced teachers who are willing to take a pay cut to get out. The parents also started a huge opt-out movement for the state tests, which I'm guessing is why the scores were so low. Since the teachers can't strike, the parents have organized things like student walk-outs at the high school and they have hundreds rallying outside every board meeting (public is not allowed in). They're really fighting back, but the people they're up against are extremely powerful- the current board members literally had gotten hundreds of thousands in campaign money from the Koch brothers. Even though it's not my district, I'm proud of what the community is doing there. I always check their FB page to see what they're up to, and I end up hearing about it anyway because literally about 1/3 of our staff came from there, as well as our superintendent and assistant superintendent. We benefit because they saw what happened there and are adamant that they will not let outside organizations in here.
     
  13. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    Movements like this are already having a negative impact in our area. There's been a sharp decline in college students choosing education for their major/career. Two retired colleagues of mine who work(ed) as adjuncts for local colleges as student teacher supervisors. One was told there are no longer enough students enrolled in the program to keep him for that (so now he's FULLY retired) and the other had his schedule drastically reduced.

    No surprise. Why would anyone want to invest four years of tuition in an effort to gain entrance into a profession that wipes its backside with you??
     
  14. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    If you can get a job. I blame colleges a lot. Letting THOUSANDS of people graduated to compete for limited jobs. I have a high classmate I ran into last school year while subbing. She was going to the same college I went to with the same professors from three before that. I said "Be careful, they will tell you there's jobs when there's not". She told me when someone in the class asked about job prospects "Professor X said we can't deny it any more. Most of you won't be getting a job come September."
     
  15. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    The other day, I spoke with the superintendent of HR. He told me that several HUNDRED people applied for the one and only teaching position the district posted last month. Mind boggling! :dizzy:
     
  16. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I don't think that it's up to colleges to control how many people become qualified to enter a particular field. College is supposed to be about expanding your horizons and being a place where you get the tools to become who and what you want to become. There aren't (or shouldn't be) quotas for that.

    Individuals should do a little research before entering any field, including teaching. It's not anyone else's responsibility.
     
  17. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    Why not? Why train all these people when you know there is no job for them? Basically taking their money for nothing. There's very few things you can do with a teaching degree. If you go somewhere else, you're starting at the same salary as someone who has no college. For example, my cousin wanted to be a graphic artist. This was before I graduated. To get into that major, you have be the best of the best and spots were limited.

    It's morally wrong to lie to people. Her statement, and my former classmate got more in detail with me, was basically like "We knew you guys weren't getting jobs when you started your major".

    I think it's easy for you to feel that way when you have a job and tenure.
     
  18. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    Jun 9, 2014

    I think I live in the same state you do. I'm not giving mine up, nor is anyone else I know.
     
  19. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    If you're talking about changing the standards for getting into Ed programs and making them more rigorous, I'm all for that. I am not, however, in favor of colleges dissuading students from following their dreams. That's not what colleges do.

    Furthermore, I think that you are grossly exaggerating the "lying" happening. Yes, I think it's true that some professors (as well as most of the general public) believe that there is this big, vast teaching shortage everywhere. We obviously know that isn't true. What you're suggesting, though, is that professors "know" that there are no jobs anywhere, and that's just not the case. There are plenty of jobs, but they are located in places that might be less desirable than others. That's not the university's fault, or anyone's, really. It's just how it is.

    I strongly believe that people these days are less inclined to accept any form of personal responsibility, and that makes me sad and frustrated. It is no one else's job to do my research for me. If I want to enter a certain field, I need to step up and find out about salaries and benefits, job prospects, job security, expected duties and responsibilities, etc. Most people do this sort of research before most other big decisions, from buying a home to upgrading a cell phone even. Why is it okay to just be like, "Meh, I'm sure it's all good because a handful of people along the way told me that it will work out," about something so important as a job? Take some ownership of your (general your) life. Do some research. Make some real and informed decisions. That's on you (general you), not on anyone else or any university.

    I guess we will agree to disagree on this one.
     
  20. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    Who lied? Unless the college promises someone a job in the field they majored in once they graduated, no one lied or was lied to.

    Not to mention, people have been majoring in fields with few career opportunities for years - this is not unique to teaching. Some people still take the chance to follow their passion and major in these fields hoping they will be able to find a job.

    Not to mention, a college is a business and they have no moral obligation to anything or anyone, IMO. They are there to make money and they do not have the responsibility to turn people away from majoring in fields with few career aspects.

    Also, certain districts are hiring but many people do not apply to these cities because of the district's demographics, poor performance, violence, etc. Many people don't want to teach in this type of environment. Everyone wants to work in a great district and environment, but if you need a job, take a job.
     
  21. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    All the research I did said there was a teacher shortage or teachers would retire in VAST numbers. Was I supposed to go to every school in a 10 mile radius and say "I graduate in four years, will give me a job?". I did the research, people (in my college) lied to me and the statics were swayed. I'm sure I can get 10 articles right now about teacher shortages and teachers going to retire in huge numbers.
     
  22. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    I feel like people are giving the colleges too much credit, because they're colleges. Yes, they lied to me personally. That professor said to may class four years earlier when someone asked about the tough market "No, you don't have to know someone to get a job. Schools are hiring". I was also lied to because I was told time and time again, I would make more money, by the school, with a degree. I made more money working in a private daycare as I did subbing after college.

    I think that's terrible you feel business have no moral obligations. :eek:hmy: You have a job, I wonder how the shoe will feel when it's on your foot.

    I've never refused to teach any part of NJ. I don't have a job, because there's too many teachers in NJ. Before anyone suggests move, how will I afford my plane ticket and to move my belongings? I think it's easy to say "Oh, you don't have a job because of X and Y" when you do have a job.
     
  23. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    I agree with the posters who are saying that no one lied to you (generic you). There are plenty of teaching jobs...just maybe not in the location you want to live.

    You do interviews by skype if you can't afford to go to the new location.

    So...you pack what you can carry in your car, drive to the new location and maybe you will have to stay in an extended hotel until you get a couple of paychecks under your belt. Many districts will give a bridge loan to new teachers to get them started.

    You get a second job to get some money to buy furniture and stuff.

    You live on ramen noodles if you have to.

    I really think that many students leaving college now feel entitled...they should have their dream job right now...they shouldn't have to work in the trenches for a few years.

    I realize many of you are now going to trash me for my views, that's ok. When you reply...just tell me what you CAN do, not what you CAN"T.
     
  24. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    I don't working in the trenches. You can't expect someone to go to college and pay for it, and then be like "Take whatever job, where ever we tell you, for what ever salary". Most people go to college to make more money. It's a trade. Four years you can't work a 40 hour a week job for a degree. You also can't expect someone to life worse after college than they did before. I never lived off Ramen noodles and don't want to live in a motel. Why don't I just live in my car and sell oranges by the free way? That's a job, too. I'm just done with this thread. I know it's easy to feel superior to "lazy" entitled me when you guys got a job straight out the gate. I want to see how you feel when you guys have kids who graduate college or for some of you grandchildren.
     
  25. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    I totally agree.

    I was hired right away. But I had experience and education that no one else applying had. Just on paper I beat everyone out - including the four people that I graduated with. They didn't get permanent jobs until two years later. They worked at other jobs in the meantime.

    I stacked the deck in my favor years BEFORE I applied. Years before I entered the credential program. I knew there would be competition for a job. I subbed and volunteered. I made sure that people in the central office knew me well through my work (paid and unpaid) throughout the system. I had an undergraduate degree that was pretty rare for teachers. I took extra college courses outside of my degrees to make me more marketable.

    Many of my classmates had never stepped foot in a public school classroom until they had formal observations. None of the ones in my program had been in a position of authority with teenagers before. These are things that employers will consider when hiring. It isn't the college's responsibility to find you a job - it is yours. You can disagree with me on that point all day long but it doesn't change anything. The college can be in the wrong but you'd still be out of a job unless you make it happen for yourself.

    I do agree with culling the herd by making the standards higher for education students. That would make life easier for everyone.
     
  26. yellowdaisies

    yellowdaisies Fanatic

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    I'm getting the impression that you think most people on here have been teaching for years and years and that's why they don't "get it." Well, I was hired for my first job in 2012 after graduating in December 2011, so I think I can speak from experience in this job market. I also graduated into one of the toughest markets in the country - elementary ed in southern California. By 2012, SoCal districts had been laying people off for YEARS. I was very worried I wouldn't get a job. I worked all through college in after school programs and day camps, trying to gain whatever relevant experience I could.

    Once I entered the credential program, I felt that our faculty was too optimistic, but I already knew the reality. My mom is a teacher who had been pink slipped more than once. I had been working in the schools and saw pink slips happened myself. I read the education section of the local papers and read all about the massive layoffs and lack of any hiring happening. I did research that myself.

    For my first (and current) job, I got hired at a charter school and moved about 60 miles from where I was previously living. There were no jobs in my immediate area, and the public districts weren't hiring at all. It worked out very well for me. Sometimes you do have to do something that might not be your dream job or ideal situation for awhile. I was lucky - I actually love my school - but that does not happen to everyone. I don't like the area I've had to move to for this job, but it's not permanent; I'm already moving for another job.

    I understand that you are frustrated and want to blame someone, but I really don't think it's the colleges OR the teachers with jobs on this board. :2cents:
     
  27. gr3teacher

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    I mean this in the nicest way possible.

    Had I kept my job search to within ten miles of my home, I would have never gotten a teaching job. Ever. For that matter, had I stayed in my home state (New York), I would have been waiting around quite awhile.

    I've had two job searches in five years. In each of them, I received multiple job offers. Those jobs required me to move, yes, but that's life.
     
  28. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    I didn't get a job right out of the gate. After I graduated, I worked part time at a bank and subbed. My first year subbing, I worked a grand total of 12 days. Then, I worked in tiny (think fewer than 75 students) private schools and in an integrated nursery school; I didn't earn more than $20 000 a year for the 5 years I worked in those. Then, I had kids and stayed home with them for 10 years. I returned to subbing, then finally landed a contract after 2 and a half years. It was a long, long haul to get where I am now. I wish it had been easier. I see the hoops that new grads need to jump through in order to even be considered for any type of job and I wish things were better for them, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

    I am the mom of a college grad (who is going to grad school in September) and a college junior. They know how tough things are--even landing a part-time or summer job as a student is a huge challenge here.

    If I could go back in time, I would have done things differently; I would have taken the advice I have given my kids and gone to where the jobs are instead of waiting for jobs that simply weren't there for me. It's far easier to say that in hindsight, but I'm glad that my children have a far more adventurous spirit than I had at their age; hopefully they won't have to wait until almost 20 years after they graduate to find their "dream" job.
     
  29. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    I don't feel superior to you, but the situation you are facing is something millions of recent grads are also facing. From people with teaching degrees to people with law degrees; millions of people are out-of-work and/or underemployed because of a tough job market in various fields. While this is not entirely your fault, it is definitely NOT your college's fault. They did not promise you anything and if you thought they were promising you a job simply because you earned a degree from them; well, I worry about your judgment.

    Basically, you sound angry with everyone who has a job simply because you don't. Your anger does not mean that what others are saying is wrong and that some of the responsibility does not lie with you.
     
  30. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    So...the research you did said that there was a teacher shortage. The professors also said that there was a teacher shortage. Perhaps the professors were misled by the same "research" that misled you. How exactly did the professors lie to you then, if they simply reiterated the exact same information you yourself had researched independently?


    I haven't had a job forever. I haven't even been a teacher for all that long. Oh, and I had to move 1600 miles to get this job. If I would have limited myself to my home state, I still wouldn't have a job.

    Yep. All of this.


    I work in the trenches. That job I had to move 1600 miles for? It's at an inner-city school, the "most violent in the state". Awesome, huh? It certainly wasn't my first choice, but it was what was available when I needed a job, so I took it and I still have it. I suppose I could be like, "Oh, hey, I went to college, you guys, and I'm like way educated, so I really need to work at a better school. I'm so much better than the trenches." You know what would happen then? I would probably have to move again, because there aren't any jobs for my content area in my state right now. If I were unwilling to move, then I would sort of be out of luck, wouldn't I?

    (Perhaps you're not aware of this, but you're coming across like you feel like you're better than the teachers who work in the "trenches". What exactly gives you the impression that you, with your degree and your college experience, makes you better than those teachers to the point that you should be able to bypass that experience?)
     
  31. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    I basically did this. I had an apartment, but I only had what fit in a Chevy Cobalt. So, a lawn chair, a TV, an air mattress, and my computer. A few weeks later, my parents brought my SUV down with my clothes, pulling a trailer that had my bed, kitchen table, and kitchen stuff. I had to buy furniture after 6 weeks or so. It would have cost more than my old furniture was worth to move it.
     
  32. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    Well, sometimes you just have to try to find a way to make it work. Borrow money from family for the move, look for a roommate in your new city, apply to places where there are obvious teacher shortages (places with lots of TFA like programs, high teacher turnover, etc.).

    I went to grad school in Michigan and once I graduated I left because the job market for teachers was roouuuggghhh in the metro-Detroit area. I'm from New Jersey and both of my parents worked/work for districts there (Newark PS and East Orange PS), but I didn't apply to any NJ districts because I knew the job market did not look good in NJ back in 2008 (I also knew that Chris Christie would probably make things worse for public school teachers). The writing was on the wall and it said I may have a long wait if I wanted a job in NJ (although, I probably could have got a job with Newark PS through my Mom).

    So now I teach in Baltimore City. It's a rough city, with some rough kids and some rough schools. It is not ideal at all (or even tolerable at times), but they were hiring and I needed a job. You have to expand the horizons of your search or you may never get anywhere.
     
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