Would you give up your tenure for a 15-20% raise?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by ecteach, Jun 7, 2014.

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  1. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    Those of you who have figured out where I live know why I am asking this. For those of you who don't.......this is "purely hypothetical." :lol:
     
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  3. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    I don't know where you live and I don't have tenure yet. But if I did, my simple answer would be...

    No flippin way.

    If someone wants to bribe you that much to take away your job security, that should speak volumes.
     
  4. Rhesus

    Rhesus Comrade

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    Agreed. Suppose you get your 15% for one year, and are then shown the door?
     
  5. Pi-R-Squared

    Pi-R-Squared Groupie

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    Didn't Michelle Rhee propose this in D.C.?
     
  6. FourSquare

    FourSquare Fanatic

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    Nope!
     
  7. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    Tenure is going away in my district and I don't have it anyways so I would do it.
     
  8. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    Not a chance.
    :cool:

    I taught in your state for a year. It's a shame how they've done nothing but sabotage education there in the last several years. I also love how they keep calling measures that make a lousy job lousier by taking away benefits and making it more cumbersome, "Education reforms."
     
  9. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Virginia doesn't officially have tenure, but we kind of do since we have due process rights. Long story short... oh HELL no. I'm watching what's happening right now with a colleague... administration is trying to terminate her. She's a fantastic teacher, and she's great with kids... she just kind of stinks with adults. I co-taught with her... it was a miserable experience working with her, but I'd love my daughter to be in her class. There's no chance they'd win if my colleague contests, because she's a great teacher with great evaluations and results.
     
  10. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    No
     
  11. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I would not. I'd be afraid that they'd take away that raise after a year or two, and then I'd have neither the money nor tenure.
     
  12. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Im making really good money...a 15-20% raise would be BIG...but costing a district that much could easily make even a great teacher a target without tenure.
     
  13. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    I read about that and even though I live miles from there-I was mad. I think it's ridiculous that you would have to make that choice. One has nothing to do with the other.

    My fear would be that they would end up taking it away anyway and at least you would be making a salary closer to what you can live on. We don't have any kinds of protections anymore.
     
  14. mkbren88

    mkbren88 Cohort

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    I wpuld only because AZ has gotten rid of teacher tenure.
     
  15. yellowdaisies

    yellowdaisies Fanatic

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    I Googled this to find out where it is, and wasn't surprised. In that state, no, I would not. I've read too much about the horrible way teachers are treated there, and I would not trust this deal.

    However, I work for a charter so I will never have tenure. I haven't seen tenure be that useful in CA over the last several years. Plenty of tenured teachers get laid off when times are tough.
     
  16. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    I obviously know what state this is too, but at least as things stand now, the tenure will automatically go away for everyone---what is it? After four years, I think?!?! That is the way it stands as of right now, of course a different legislature/governor may reinstate the ability to keep tenure.

    I think I would NOT give up the tenure, even though they are saying it will go away no matter what, just because things change so quickly in this state.

    Heck, common core is about to get overturned. And I think it will.
     
  17. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    No. I've said it a million times, but I would never teach in a place without tenure or a union.
     
  18. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    Not sure which state (or why it's such a secret lol) but I might. I don't see my tenure giving me what a 15 to 20% raise would and I'm confident my job is secure without it.
     
  19. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    Assuming this is NC.

    I don't think we should follow anything NC is doing in education. That'd be like following Iran in Women's Rights. (extreme example, but still)
     
  20. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    Ding ding ding ding...at least it fits the bill of what the OP is describing.
     
  21. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    A judge ruled that it is the equivalent of legislators taking personal property, and they do not have the right to do that. But, his ruling could possibly be overturned. THIS is why they have chosen to offer the "raises" if one gives up their tenure. In a press release they stated that the budget allots enough money assuming each teacher will give up their tenure. I don't know WHAT they will do when teachers don't give it up. :dizzy:
     
  22. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    :lol::blush::woot::help:
     
  23. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Where would all this money come from? It doesn't really cost anything to offer tenure, does it? So taking that away shouldn't cause some magical pile of money to appear. NC has been unable/unwilling to pay its teachers a livable wage for many years. Was that for some reason other than a lack of funding?
     
  24. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    Tenure never meant much of anything in NC to begin with, being an at-will state.

    So, as a former NC teacher, and one who was technically tenured, I would have given it up in a heartbeat!
     
  25. yellowdaisies

    yellowdaisies Fanatic

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    Wait...why do they have tenure at all, then, if it's an at-will state? :confused:
     
  26. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    Cuts to teacher assistants, school nurses, Department of Public Instruction Staff, Teaching Fellows, and textbooks. Significant cuts to all of those.
     
  27. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I live in an at-will state with "post-probationary status" (basically tenure). Although it's still at-will, due process exists. It's not pure or perfect tenure, but it's a lot better than what you get working at McDonald's as far as job security.
     
  28. Rhesus

    Rhesus Comrade

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  29. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Yikes! Give up tenure? I wouldn't recommend that to anyone!

    As an administrator, I am on a year-to-year contract. However, if for some reason the district wanted to get rid of me, the worst they could do is place me back in the classroom (which has happened to a few administrators over the years).
     
  30. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    General disrespect for the profession?
     
  31. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    Well, you don't have to sign a contract every year anymore. (insert sarcasm) That's mostly it.

    I know of 'tenured' teachers who were fired. There was always a reason. But, I think in MOST cases, you will not get fired if you are doing your job correctly. This goes for all professions.
     
  32. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    I think this is traditionally true, however, there are places I know of personally where admins or their superiors just didn't like a person. Then they found ways to make sure they looked like they weren't doing their job correctly. I worked with a teacher once who was one year away from retirement, I went to a conference once and she was presenting-really good at what she does. They gave her a "needs improvement" on her final rating-which meant a growth plan after something like 25 years of teaching. She ended up going to another district-but the whole thing was because her assessor didn't like something she said in a meeting.

    I can see the benefits of tenure, however I think it's something that will end up being taken away in many places before they are done with this war on education we seem to be in the midst of.
     
  33. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I do believe that there have to be good rules in place that allow for due process of sorts after working for a certain amount of time. They shouldn't be so difficult that it is so expensive or so difficult and so drawn out that people can not be fired for becoming ineffective and remaining ineffective. This will never solve all problems, even the principal that doesn't like someone.

    However, tenure, as many states have it, has seen its time.

    Just like we can talk about the random admin that might abuse his or her job (and there needs to be checks and balances for that too), we can also talk about those who get tenure and become a completely different teacher in non-beneficial ways. (I compare this to those that go looking for an "evaluation" lesson, as I call them, because they know they are to be evaluated and need to find something that will actually show she is doing her job the way it is expected to be done.

    Give up tenure for extra pay with no major re-vamp in the evaluation process and due process? No way. But I do believe the system needs to be fixed.
     
  34. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    Sure did and we see how that turned out. I feel that job safety is more important than a raise at this point. People in all professions seem to be losing their jobs left and right, plus with all the extra work we're doing with assessments, SLO's, Common Core, I feel like tenure is a small perk in an extremely difficult (and low paid) profession.
     
  35. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    Tenure (or career status) in NC prevents teachers from being fired on the spot for no good reason. A teacher with career status has due process rights. An employer has to show just cause to let him go.

    Two years ago a colleague in a neighboring district pi$$ed off a school board member when, as a coach, he set the boar member's grandson on the bench for a game. Grandma went after the teacher/coach with guns blazing. She wrote him a letter telling him he was dismissed and needed to clear out his classroom. This teacher had been voted Teacher of the Year, had served as a mentor for new teachers in the school and had hosted several student teachers. His students scored high on their AP exams. While he did lose his coaching position, he kept his job because of his career status. No prove that he was a horrible teacher.

    Another nearby district had a superintendent with twins in middle school. Both twins were doing poorly in one subject, but with different teachers. The teacher that had career status was back the next year but the one without was let go. Both teachers had similar evaluation scores. They had the same amount of experience in the classroom - but one was hired as a temp her first year of teaching so she missed "tenure" by a year.
     
  36. DrivingPigeon

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    I don't think so, but I don't really understand tenure. We don't have it in my district, and I've really only heard about it from the media and internet.
     
  37. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    To say that's unfair isn't a strong enough word. I would be so afraid if that kind of situation happened here because each year we get at least 5 - 10 difficult parents on our grade level who (apparently) have no life and like to make ours more difficult. You know the type provides no structure or support for their child at home, but expects the teacher/school to do everything.

    Those are the type that are QUICK to go to the Area Office and file a complaint against the teacher/Principal. Because we have tenure in my state, I don't feel too worried about those situations because I know that there's a safety net and as long as I haven't broken a law, I'm going to be okay. But without tenure, I'd probably worry myself sick.
     
  38. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    Here's why I value tenure. I was non-renewed from my previous district after working like an over-achieving mule for a year. I had great evaluations, I volunteered for everything, my principal seemed happy with me, and my kids made big improvements from the previous year on their state tests.

    So why was I let go? Well, admin just decided to non-renew each and every non-tenured teacher in the district. All of us. They told us, to be fair to all candidates, they were opening up our positions to outside candidates. However, the good news was that we'd be invited to apply and interview for our jobs. Yay!

    So I swallowed my pride and applied. They called me for an interview. I walked into the board office for my interview and was sat at a table. On the table were stacks and stacks of resumes applying for my position and the positions of the other fired teachers. The interview ensued. It was very formal, very tough, but I thought I did well, all things considered.

    A month later I got a letter telling me that they had chosen another candidate, but thanks for my service to their district. I had already learned that none of the non tenured teachers had been rehired. All had been replaced with fresh-out-of-college 22 year olds, hired at step 1.

    None of this came as a major shock to me, though. Within a few weeks of being hired, I had learned that my position and most others turned over every couple of years or so. The district had been doing this to avoid tenure for almost a decade so they could always get the least expensive teachers.

    So no, I don't feel like doing a good job is necessarily enough to keep you safe and I value the heck out of job security.
     
  39. scmom

    scmom Enthusiast

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    On the other hand, I have seen too many incompetent or lazy teachers protected by tenure which makes us all look bad. From my experience, there are a lot more teachers out there who shouldn't be protected than there are teachers who have been targeted for no reason.

    I vote for the raise. My position doesn't have tenure, but in all my years I have never seen a teacher fired who was doing his/her job properly. I know it happens, but it is rare. I have seen unions protect certificated and classified staff from being removed, most of which didn't deserve it either.

    I guess I wonder why we should have protection other professions do not? I think the reasons for tenure in the past - not being fired for teaching evolution, for example, are long gone.
     
  40. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    You're in a lucky situation then. Also, being tenured is not the same as having a job for life. It just requires being fired for cause. Being lazy or incompetent would be cause, as long as the administrator has proof of what they're saying.

    It's also not just teachers that have due process rights. Police officers and many other public employees have it also.

    Among the reasons why I'm glad I have due process rights are because all it takes is for one parent to decide they don't like you for complaints, etc., to file up. Plus as a male, should I ever wrongfully be accused of sexual harassment (or worse) of a student, my district won't be able to just fire me right away. It's also not particularly common in most professions (pretty much just limited to police officers and police, actually) for a client to end up absolutely hating you BECAUSE you did your job perfectly.
     
  41. 2ndTimeAround

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    Well, in NC, education is the last to get the money it needs. Anything the state can do to reduce the employment costs, they will. And that means letting expensive, experienced, teachers go in order to hire cheaper ones fresh out of college.

    This week I was told that there would be no more textbooks ordered and our copy limits would be decreased. There is no instructional supply money available so anything teachers need for the classroom at my school they have to buy on their own. My husband is also a state employee. He saw an advertisement for an instrument and decided to order it right away. The instrument should make his job easier. It cost $450 and no one batted an eye. He was asked to deliver something to Raleigh. He took a state truck, used their gas and submitted an invoice for his lunch (he normally goes home for lunch). My coworker advises a club that had competition two weeks ago. He had to drive his own vehicle, use his own gas, pay for his meals and bought snacks for students that forgot their meal money.
     
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