why do some children slip throught the education system

Discussion in 'General Education Archives' started by marydoll, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. marydoll

    marydoll Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 18, 2005

    Why are children able to get through school without spelling or punctuating correctly? Why do teachers not do anything or highlight the problem? If the system that has failed them, surely the education system is not that good at all, why do some children flourish and others are left behind?

    The government has a policy of no child left behind, yet I help out in a first school and the children are struggling with phonics in year 4!

    why
     
  2.  
  3. litlmama

    litlmama Comrade

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 18, 2005

    Because the politicians are too involved in education. when the "fuzzy bunny" policies went through years ago that tied educators hands in terms of retention. Children could not be retained without parental permission.

    The other problem is huge classes, small budgets, lack of positive parental involvement, lack of importance of education at home (if the parents don't care why would the kids?) Way too many options for parents to put their kids on the easy track... You name it, it's there. Give education over to educators and things would be different. Teacher's don't want to pass kids that are not up to snuff, but currently there are some serious issues in this regard. At the 9th grade level I have kids who received straight F's throughout 7th and 8th grade, because they can't be held back. If there was a consequence that is hard on the kids more kids would be on the ball.
    The good thing about high school is if they don't earn their credits they don't graduate. In many cases this is a student's first real set of educational consequences and boy is it an eye opener.

    This of course is my humble opinion.
     
  4. mommaruthie

    mommaruthie Aficionado

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    3,013
    Likes Received:
    1

    Apr 18, 2005

    also, a child may not be retained in consecutive grade and also only be retained from grades k-3 once and 4-6 once. Then each grade there after once.
    Another way a child slips thru the cracks is if there isnt a pronounced deficiency between performance and IQ the child receives no services.
     
  5. Fawn Lori

    Fawn Lori Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 18, 2005

    Why? Some of the reasons have been touched upon already but one of the things left out in this list is a learning disability. Why are you first seeing it in 4th grade? Because 3rd and 4th grade are when a lot of these disabilities are first noticed because this is when learning makes the conversion from the concrete to the abstract and that's where a lot of processing disorders show up.
     
  6. Beth2004

    Beth2004 Maven

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,168
    Likes Received:
    1

    Apr 18, 2005

    Just an example to add to what mommaruthie said, I have a student in my class where I'm student teaching that has an IQ of 81. To be eligible for special ed. services, the student needs to have an IQ of 79. We try to make accommodations for the child, but she really should be receiving services from the Sp.Ed. department.
     
  7. ViolaSwamp

    ViolaSwamp Habitué

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 18, 2005

    A few thougts...
    Why are some children born with disabilities? Why are some children better at picking up on body language? Why are some kids better at auditory learning, or kinesthetic learning? How do some students figure out what the teacher thinks is important and take notes on it? Likewise some students are better at hiding their difficulties than others. Also, I've discovered that kids that usually need extra tutorial in reading just do not internalize phonemic patterns. Whereas I can look at a new word and sound it out because I internally know how certain letter groups sound together (and no one ever taught me those patterns), some kids do not "get" those patterns. Another thing is that some movements in education have moved away from a phonics based method, or have lessened it's importance because they want students to focus on the meaning of the text.

    Also, I'm confused. Are you talking about U.S. students when you refer to the "year four" you are working with? Are you talking about U.S. Teachers when you said, "Why do teachers not do anything or highlight the problem?"
     
  8. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    6,699
    Likes Received:
    66

    Apr 18, 2005

    I teach 4th grade. This is the grade that the kids stop learning to read, and begin reading to learn. It's tough. They do more writing than they have ever done. There are more chances to see those problems. Also, there are problems with our special ed services. A child has to have an exceptionality. They have to have a strength in one are for it to be a "true" learning disability. Our pupil progression won't even look at a child until he or she fails at least once. Some kids squeak by w/o ever failing. The sad truth also is, not all children are A students. Some are simply weak.
    Another problem, no consistency between grades. Grade 1 teaches a certain way, then along comes grade 2 with new ideas, etc. Our parish has chosen not to use a speller. I don't know how a child can learn the rules of spelling by having a random list each week.
    Our parish has chosen to use Shurley (if you have it, no offense, but I hate it) It's rote memorization. They can rattle that sentence all day long, then you throw them a curve ball and they don't have a clue. They remember the songs, but don't know what they mean. I'm sure, as a supplement, if you have time, it's great, but it is not a stand alone program.
    One last issue. Kids don't read today like we did. I LOVE to read and always have. They would rather play Nintendo or watch tv. A book is "boring". The more a child reads, the more they learn.
    Ok...I'm off my soapbox now! Next one up?.... :D
     
  9. Mamacita

    Mamacita Aficionado

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    12

    Apr 18, 2005

    I hated Shurley, but I was forced to use in for 8th graders, if you can even imagine the horror. But I've posted about this method before.

    Personally, I don't think any child under any circumstances should be allowed to leave a grade level until most of the skills are mastered. If that means being in first grade, at age seventeen, then so be it. That's how it used to be, you know. Stupid political correctness. . . . .
     
  10. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Guest

    Apr 18, 2005

    England has a NCLB policy too? :confused:
     
  11. AMK

    AMK Aficionado

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 18, 2005

    Many educators believe that retaining will not benefit a child in middle school and that it should be done in the primary grades.
    I have had two students who I wanted to retain but the parents would not even think about it and now they are struggling academically and socially.
     
  12. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    6,699
    Likes Received:
    66

    Apr 18, 2005

    I've talked to parents about retaining their child before, several times. My biggest argument for it is the child's self esteem. If they repeat a grade because their parents chose to hold them back, it is so much better than "failing" a grade.
    I've had several children repeat over the years. I can't name a single child who didn't benefit from repeating a grade (some were helped more than others, but none suffered). Some parents can't get over the stigma, though, of having a child repeat.
     
  13. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Guest

    Apr 18, 2005

    True. But, if a child has to repeat THEN they've got to repeat the grade. There's no shame in repeating a grade. If a child's not ready to move on then they shouldn't move on. Not everyone learns at the same pace.
     
  14. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    6,699
    Likes Received:
    66

    Apr 19, 2005

    Yes, if a child fails to make the grades required, pass all the reading unit tests, and/or pass the LEAP (state mandated criterion-referenced test) with the proper score, they have to repeat a grade no if's, ands, or buts. However, if it is a case of a child scraping by on grades, that I feel would benefit from repeating my grade, then it becomes a decision for the parents. That's what I was referring to. Some parents can't get over the idea of other people knowing their child has repeated, and aren't willing to do what is best for the child.
     
  15. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    6,699
    Likes Received:
    66

    Apr 19, 2005

    Also, in a parish where high school sports are all important, that is always part of the equation. If they repeat too often and reach certain ages in Jr. High and High School they are unable to play. Some parents base their decision on this.
     
  16. Heavenlybrat926

    Heavenlybrat926 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 2, 2005

    :mad: My sister is in 6th grade and she can barely read or write. I have been trying to work with her I read with her every night and she looks foward to reading with me but why cant she do it on her own. I believe she is an intelligent girl but no one in her school ever noticed that she cant spell at all she writes like she is in first grade. It really depresses me becasue she is so smart in other subjects but she can't spell or read on her own. she has had trouble for a while now, I think i might start working with her the way i work with frist graders. I want her to succeed, she wants to be a vet when she gets older but I feel she wont be able to if she cant read. Does any one have any idea why no one in her school noticed her not being able to spell or read? Does any one have any ideas on what I can do to help her move foward,I dont want her to go the seventh grade with out knowing how to read or spell. Thank you all in advance. :mad:
     
  17. marydoll

    marydoll Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 2, 2005

    Hi Heavenly

    I think your right about going back to basics! If you start working through phonics with her, it will enable her to see how the vowels are used to change the meaning of a letter or sound. This is a great starting point, the other issue may be that she has some form of Dyslexia, some children are very bright but struggle with certain parts of literacy, i.e. how they percieve the words, poor eyesight etc, thsi maybe a route you should ask the teachers to explore or maybe you could do so. The other area maybe that the teacher is not very good! big statement I know, but some are just not great at differentiation within a class. This is very important to help identify weak areas in children and look to solving the issue rather than ignore it!

    I am doing a research project on Dyslexia, if you have any further questions please feel free to email.

    Mx
     
  18. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,367
    Likes Received:
    1

    May 2, 2005

    My reading disability (comprehension) wasn't even discovered until my sophomore year in high school.
     
  19. D2theMcV

    D2theMcV Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 2, 2005

    First, I agree with littlemama, just with different emphasis. The lack of parental positive involvement, and lack of emphasis on education at home--I believe--are the most important factors. That's what generates the the political hot air. My principal refers to the various NCLB-type proclamations by politicians as "like me going to (very well respected hospital) and telling a neurosurgeon how to perform brain surgery." Also, it is shocking for some of these kids when they get to high school. Even kids who have had good grades get here and are flabbergasted when I give them a zero for not turning in an assignment.

    Second, when it comes to LD's, I see kids use it as an excuse to do nothing or have someone else do it for them. I also see kids who won't go to the "resource" room even when they need to because they don't want anyone to know--and get A's and B's. Again, I think this comes from emphasis from home. I have a relative with dyslexia--and he owns/actively operates a million dollar a year company.

    Also, despite the fact it's anathema for an educator to say it--some people are just stupid. Doesn't mean they aren't good at something, or can't contribute to society/community. But no amount of government intervention is going to improve their test scores (at least in an honest fashion).

    Finally, based on personal experience as a child, and observations as both a teacher and a parent, anyone who doesn't believe phonics is the way to go probably can't spell themselves.

    I could go on for hours about any of this!!! But, I've said before, I'm preaching to the choir.
     
  20. sdhudgins

    sdhudgins Comrade

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 2, 2005

    some learning disabilites go unnoticed for a very long time.
    I have discalculia, and didn't figure out what the problem was until college algebra.... I scraped C's out of math classes, and had just convinced myself I wasn't very good at it... then when we figured out what was wrong in college algebra, and started using filters I suddenly was able to pull an A...
    It really could be something like that that allows lots to fall through.
     
  21. clarnet73

    clarnet73 Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2002
    Messages:
    6,123
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 2, 2005

    Your sister sounds a lot like my brother when he was younger (well, even today...). He's your ADHD LD Gifted kid... no one knew what to do with him.

    In elem. school, he tested and qualified for the gifted program... so that meant he wouldn't be tested for LD or given considerations, even though my mom knew EARLY ON he was having trouble... handwriting was atrocious, spelling didn't always even have any of the right letters, could comprehend and analyze GREAT if someone's reading to him but if he's reading himself, forget it!

    Wasn't until he switched schools in 6th grade (moved from TN to IL) that they cought on to his reading disability, which also turned out to be dyslexia. Seems he was REALLY good at fooling everyone... when the teacher would assign reading in class, he's notice when the other kids turned pages and turned with them... and would wait in the conversation until he got a feel for what everyone was talking about, then chime in (so no one really knew he hadn't really read it). He's SMART, he just doesn't see words the same way.

    What really helped was the school finally recognizing it and putting him in a resource homeroom with a teacher who helped him stay organized and on top of things... and my parents helping him with homework EVERY NIGHT through high school (keeping him on task, etc). One summer, I remember my mom (also a teacher) doing INTENSE phonics work with him... his K was whole language strictly, so he didn't really know all the phonics rules and such. This really DID help him...
     
  22. CindyBlue

    CindyBlue Cohort

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    20

    May 6, 2005


    What are the "filters" that you used to help you in math?
     
  23. tracieteaches

    tracieteaches Companion

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 6, 2005

    Yes, I'd like to know more about the filters for math, too!
     
  24. sdhudgins

    sdhudgins Comrade

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 7, 2005

    it works with reading also. Sometimes a colored filter (usually you can get colored transparancies even!!) will help. The color depends on the kid and takes time to figure out what's going to work. Blue helped me. Yellow helps some... *Shrug* it's all in helping the mind see the thing right.
     
  25. tracieteaches

    tracieteaches Companion

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 7, 2005

    Thanks, Cindy. Another weapon for the arsenal for the battle to win the war!
     
  26. litlmama

    litlmama Comrade

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2005

    sdhudgins- I'm a green, and a grey combined.

    My mother is researching this, and is actually the first in her school district to diagnose this problem with the students. It has helped their academics immensely. Not to mention that now when I read info. texts I don't get blinding headaches and lose my place ever other paragraph. Especially the boring stuff ie- CLAD.
     
  27. kay_2oo7

    kay_2oo7 New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2005

    I suppose that is right about them not suffering at the time of repeating a year and gaining more experience. But have you thought what will happen to the child in the future. i know its going off the subject slightly but i had a friend that lived in england and her family migrated to Spain after being at an ENGLISH school in spain for a few months they decided she should be kept bac a year. she was 14 at the time! and when she had to repeat the year over the other teens in her year started to tease her once they realised that she was actually made to repeat a year..

    she got called stupid and all sorts.... have you thought that although it may seem best for the child NOW the parents are just trying to think of the best interests of the childs future after all no parent wants their child to be bullied and teased and not only can it be heart breaking for the parents but it could also effect the childs self esteem later in life which may lead to more problems in education! so not only could the child self esteem be effected badly if they do not repeat the year but also if they do.

    so remember think not only of the child now but of the childs future and think that the parents may have good reasons for not wanting their child to repeat the year over!
     
  28. D2theMcV

    D2theMcV Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2005

    What if they aren't held back and get through just barely keeping their head above water? When they graduate, they probably won't be going to college. Then, they can't get a "decent" job with only their high school diploma. What happens to their self-esteem when all of their friends are buying cars, houses, and flat-screen TV's while they live a hand to mouth existence?
     
  29. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,367
    Likes Received:
    1

    May 9, 2005

    Just to add a a little something. My husband and I both went to college, and my husband and I fall under the whole "middle class scraping by" category. My brother, who never went to college because it just wasn't for him, makes just as much money as both my husband and I combined. He found a good job at an early age, has grown in the company, and at 21, is living on his own, making good money, and has a pretty decent head on his shoulders. I am not saying that people shouldn't go to college, but I am saying that college isn't for everyone. Even when you have a college degree, it doesn't always get you the job you thought you wanted. My husband is having a real hard time finding a job in his field where we live. There is also more to life than material objects like nice cars, flat screen tv's, etc. We might just be barely ahead, but we are happy and thankful for what we have recieved in our lives.
     
  30. D2theMcV

    D2theMcV Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2005

    I couldn't agree more. And maybe my hypothetical student does go to college (I tutored LD college students when I was an undergrad). But my point is that statistically most people without a college degree are more likely to work for substandard wages. And, I'm not talking about "middle class scraping by." I'm talking about "Quickstop clerk scraping by."

    Therefore:

    When most people are starting to benefit from the fruits of their proverbial labor in school, someone who wasn't held back for the sake of "self-esteem" as a child, loses what self-esteem they have...at a time in their life that for most people self-esteem isn't a top ranking issue. When is it more damaging? I don't know the answer. Just pointing out there can be consequences on either choice when talking about "emotional" vs. "educational" well being.
     
  31. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,367
    Likes Received:
    1

    May 9, 2005

    I understand.
     
  32. litlmama

    litlmama Comrade

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2005

    I truly believe the whole "fuzzy bunny" approach to education is how these kids slip through. I really do think that holding kids back should happen at the Pre-K years. It is detrimental to them as they continue on with the kids for years and then are forced to stay behind.

    The earlier we catch them the better it is all around!

    Of course that's just me. My father was held back in third grade. He "quit" school at that point because he thought he was too dumb. The younger the kids the less stigmatism there is in the action of retention.

    That's just my experience.
     
  33. Heavenlybrat926

    Heavenlybrat926 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 10, 2005

    I had posted a reply a few days ago and it was about my sister and how she cant read or spell. Well I worked with her the other day and she is good at reading but she leaves out words or adds words, But her spelling is horrible she cant spell even if you sit next to her and pretty much sound it out for her. She knows all her letter sounds and vowel sounds but she cant spell. can some one please give me some suggestions about what i can do to help her read, she is in sixth grade and i dont want her to fail the rest of her life, i want her to go to college and get good grades, i really care about how she does in school and i want to help her. If any one has any thing that will help her spell please let me know. thank you so much in advance.
     
  34. kay_2oo7

    kay_2oo7 New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 10, 2005


    i understand what you mean but people have to realise that like you said and like i said the childs self esteem will be effected sometime in their life if something or nothing is done.

    its just the point of weather or not the child is strong enough and in the correct circumstances to do so now or later in life.

    but i do completely agree with what you said =)
     
  35. FallCreekGal82

    FallCreekGal82 Companion

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2005
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 10, 2005

    My school district does not believe in retention at the elementary level. I believe once the students hit 7th grade in my district there is between 20-75 kids held back each year. The administrators continue to pass the kids on even if the classroom teacher does not. I have some collegues who have refused to sign off on a student and the administrator will sign instead. It's sad to see kids continually struggle and know there isn't much support for teachers who care.
     
  36. tracieteaches

    tracieteaches Companion

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 10, 2005

    Heaven,
    I admire your determination to help your sister, and that is what is going to get her through. I have 2 sisters that are learning disabled and while I was still in high school, I worked with them a lot. We are all in our 20's and 30's, well, I am 38, but one of my sisters is a hotel manager and the other is a computer programmer!!! You may want to try to find these workbooks by Diana King, a renowned Learning Disablities expert, How to Spell[/B. I have seen them in a lot of special education classrooms, and I bet if you explain to the principal, secretary, or teacher what you are trying to do they would let you borrow them. Some Special Ed. Depts. at the school district level have lending libraries so you could check them out. Also, try to find F. A. T. City which is a video that will show you what your sister is going through and keep your motivation to help up. The F.A.T. stand for frustration, anxiety, and tension. Here is a website where you can order the workbooks: www.epsbooks.com They specialize in all types of materials for LD students, which it sounds like your sister is. Has she been tested for a learning disability? Also, you may want to look at this website: ldonline.org/ld, but don't be turned off by the homepage that just talks about ADHD, but dig alittle further until you find something that fits your situation. I wish I owned all of these materials because I would send them to you. Best of luck.
     
  37. Heavenlybrat926

    Heavenlybrat926 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 11, 2005

    tracieteaches

    Thank you for your help. I am going to try those websites and see what they have. But with my sister she has not been tested for a learning disability, and i believe she might have a slight case of ADD. She also has a speech problem she cant really say her R's. Which I think might be causeing her to misunderstand the sounds of the words. Thank you again and Iam just going to keep trying as hard as I can with her. If any one has any othe suggestions I would really appricate it.
     
  38. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,367
    Likes Received:
    1

    May 11, 2005

    I would really suggest getting her tested for even more than that. There is something more to it (I believe) if she is having that much difficulty at reading in 6th grade. It seems more learning disabled if she is having that great of difficulty at her age. That's just my opinion, but I wish you the best of luck in getting her help.
     
  39. tracieteaches

    tracieteaches Companion

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 11, 2005

    Keep your head up; it is a tough job, but easier when you love that person as you do your sister. It will be hard keeping yourself motivated when she may not seem to care. However, that is usually just a defense mechanism, a shield that she has had to establish for herself for dealing with these difficulties for such a long time. Let her know that you are willing to help her as long as it takes. You MUST find the F.A.T. City video that I am referring to, though, because I was ready to quit teaching after six years until I saw it. It changed my life and how I approached kids with learning problems.
     
  40. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,367
    Likes Received:
    1

    May 12, 2005

    Heavenlybrat, your sister is very lucky to have someone like you who cares a great deal. It's great that she has such a positive force in her life and someone to look up to.
     
  41. Kitty

    Kitty Rookie

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 16, 2005

    I am reading this thread with great interest.
    Looking back at my own class mates at school and what has become of them it is remarkable to state that those who were "bad" students are the most successful lawyers, business men, journalists etc right now.
    Some of them even failed grades or always had bad marks in almost all subjects. They were not even good in the subjects in which they excell right now in their professions.

    These were not "dumb kids". The schooling system was unable to give them the proper treatment. Or maybe it´s some other factor I am not aware of.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

Total: 300 (members: 1, guests: 267, robots: 32)
test