What was the point of this?

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Pashtun said:
So your sped kid get nothing for being identified a sped?
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A tutor comes by twice a day for forty minutes. Usually she is late because she is over scheduled and trying to deal with too many kids with too many issues.

Eighty minutes a day may sound great to some, but not when you look at the range of needs within my special education students. Some of the students are LD, some CD, some behavior, and some are dealing with issues such as autism or hearing loss. Some of them need quite a bit of support in all areas whereas some only need support in math or language arts. :dizzy:
 
Curiouscat said:
A tutor comes by twice a day for forty minutes. Usually she is late because she is over scheduled and trying to deal with too many kids with too many issues.

Eighty minutes a day may sound great to some, but not when you look at the range of needs within my special education students. Some of the students are LD, some CD, some behavior, and some are dealing with issues such as autism or hearing loss. Some of them need quite a bit of support in all areas whereas some only need support in math or language arts. :dizzy:
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Hour and twenty minutes is a good chunk of support. My at and above grade level students get nothing.
 
czacza said:
What supports would your 'at and above grade level students' need other than your good teaching?
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They could use the exact same small group support with content at their higher level. They can be pulled out for 45m minute blocks to engage in GATE activities or projects.
 
Pashtun said:
They could use the exact same small group support with content at their higher level. They can be pulled out for 45m minute blocks to engage in GATE activities or projects.
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Wouldn't they miss instruction in their regular core classes if they were pulled out for 45 minutes?
 
Pashtun said:
They could use the exact same small group support with content at their higher level. They can be pulled out for 45m minute blocks to engage in GATE activities or projects.
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Just because a student is at or above grade level doesn't mean they necessarily qualify for GATE. Students who are actually gifted and talented should already be receiving those services too.

I always think of the phrase that says something along the lines of fair doesn't mean equal, it means everyone getting what they need to succeed. A student on grade level really doesn't need any extra services other than their classroom teacher to succeed. Yes, a highly advanced gifted student might need special services to keep them engaged and keep them from getting bored with the regular curriculum. But students that are on grade level and slightly above really don't need much else.
 
iteachbx said:
Just because a student is at or above grade level doesn't mean they necessarily qualify for GATE. Students who are actually gifted and talented should already be receiving those services too.

I always think of the phrase that says something along the lines of fair doesn't mean equal, it means everyone getting what they need to succeed. A student on grade level really doesn't need any extra services other than their classroom teacher to succeed. Yes, a highly advanced gifted student might need special services to keep them engaged and keep them from getting bored with the regular curriculum. But students that are on grade level and slightly above really don't need much else.
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:thumb: agreed.
 
iteachbx said:
Just because a student is at or above grade level doesn't mean they necessarily qualify for GATE. Students who are actually gifted and talented should already be receiving those services too.

I always think of the phrase that says something along the lines of fair doesn't mean equal, it means everyone getting what they need to succeed. A student on grade level really doesn't need any extra services other than their classroom teacher to succeed. Yes, a highly advanced gifted student might need special services to keep them engaged and keep them from getting bored with the regular curriculum. But students that are on grade level and slightly above really don't need much else.
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I never said they were gate, I said they could be working on GATE activities...good teaching.

I disagee. A student at grade level may succeed, but that is not ok for me, they should be challenged at their level. A student at grade level has the same right to read one to one with an adult, small group..etc.

We can agree to disagree.
 
smalltowngal said:
Wouldn't they miss instruction in their regular core classes if they were pulled out for 45 minutes?
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Yes, they would, just like low students, GATE students (in some areas), and I guess bubble kids.

I absolutely believe that every student deserves attention. My at grade level students deserve very similar attention to SPED, bubble, high, low...whatever.

I am not saying they have to be pulled out, but they deserve "services" as well.
 
Pashtun said:
Yes, they would, just like low students, GATE students (in some areas), and I guess bubble kids.

I absolutely believe that every student deserves attention. My at grade level students deserve very similar attention to SPED, bubble, high, low...whatever.

I am not saying they have to be pulled out, but they deserve "services" as well.
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No, not every student needs "services". Attention and instruction are different from receiving special services.
 
Pashtun said:
A student at grade level has the same right to read one to one with an adult, small group..etc.
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Why? Most of the times the kids reading 1:1 with an adult need the support because they are not capable of doing so independently. The grade level or above grade level students are capable of reading independently and can even push themselves without 1:1 support.

If someone in the class is in a wheelchair should everyone get to ride the elevator because it is more fun than walking the stairs?
 
a2z said:
Why? Most of the times the kids reading 1:1 with an adult need the support because they are not capable of doing so independently. The grade level or above grade level students are capable of reading independently and can even push themselves without 1:1 support.

If someone in the class is in a wheelchair should everyone get to ride the elevator because it is more fun than walking the stairs?
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EVERYONE in my class deserves to read one to one with me. Every student in my class deserves individual attention.

I am glad I work at a school where admin tried scaffolding reading groups. They tried putting 30 high achieving students with 1 teacher, while the below, at..etc had like 8 kids to a teacher...it was shot down immediately. The high kids deserve to have small group with a teacher as well.

Comparing a kid in a wheelchair, to all children deserving to read one to one with a teacher is silly and moronic.
 
Could the resources going towards accommodations for SPED students be used in a way to benefit on-level and/or gifted students?
 
RadiantBerg said:
No, not every student needs "services". Attention and instruction are different from receiving special services.
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We can agree to disagree. I simply believe that above and at grade level students deserve attention, its simply not ok with me that they are passing , so they are good.
 
dave1mo said:
Could the resources going towards accommodations for SPED students be used in a way to benefit on-level and/or gifted students?
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That's what we are trying at my school. I was impressed with our school, when teachers demanded a similar teacher to student ratio between the high achieving and the low achieving.

Edit: our GATE students in the district get no resources or services. I guess in some districts GATE students get services.
 
Pashtun said:
I never said they were gate, I said they could be working on GATE activities...good teaching.

I disagee. A student at grade level may succeed, but that is not ok for me, they should be challenged at their level. A student at grade level has the same right to read one to one with an adult, small group..etc.

We can agree to disagree.
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Are you using differentiated instruction in your classroom to meet all student needs, develop critical thinking skills and challenge students at their own levels?
 
Pashtun said:
Yep. Of course.
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So why would they need additional services? Special services budgets are stretched thin in many districts and are intended for those students whose needs can't be met by regular Ed (even with differentiation!)
 
czacza said:
So why would they need additional services? Special services budgets are stretched thin in many districts and are intended for those students whose needs can't be met by regular Ed (even with differentiation!)
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Because high achieving students needs are not met by differentiation either.

Honestly, I am not in favor of pulling kids from classrooms. I am tired of ever conversation being directed towards low achieving students, I am tired of what seems like many PDs, frameworks for management,..etc are directed towards low achieving teachers.

Professional learning communities for teachers? You mean professional learning communities for crappy teachers who don't like to talk about teaching... great teachers have always talked about strategies, what works, what doesn't work...etc
 
czacza said:
So why would they need additional services? Special services budgets are stretched thin in many districts and are intended for those students whose needs can't be met by regular Ed (even with differentiation!)
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Special services are stretched thin because the federal government has imposed unfunded mandates on local school districts; even so, SPED services make up a HUGE chunk of the instructional costs of most districts.
 
dave1mo said:
Special services are stretched thin because the federal government has imposed unfunded mandates on local school districts; even so, SPED services make up a HUGE chunk of the instructional costs of most districts.
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An aside: Just about every state gives back some special education funds to the federal government each year because they don't use them all. I'm sure this is due to poor management and budgeting of funds.
 
a2z said:
Why? Most of the times the kids reading 1:1 with an adult need the support because they are not capable of doing so independently. The grade level or above grade level students are capable of reading independently and can even push themselves without 1:1 support.

If someone in the class is in a wheelchair should everyone get to ride the elevator because it is more fun than walking the stairs?
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Pashtun said:
EVERYONE in my class deserves to read one to one with me. Every student in my class deserves individual attention.

I am glad I work at a school where admin tried scaffolding reading groups. They tried putting 30 high achieving students with 1 teacher, while the below, at..etc had like 8 kids to a teacher...it was shot down immediately. The high kids deserve to have small group with a teacher as well.

Comparing a kid in a wheelchair, to all children deserving to read one to one with a teacher is silly and moronic.
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It was my impression of this discussion that we were talking about instruction and services BEYOND regular classroom instruction which could include 1:1 reading with the teacher or small group with the teacher. Low kids need more which is why they get more. The kids that are at or above grade level have a shot at keeping ahead. The low kids will just fall further behind when the expectation of growth rises rapidly. So, I don't believe the at grade level or above grade level need the extra support the low kids get. They can progress without it.

So, I guess we will agree to disagree.
 
Pashtun said:
Yes, they would, just like low students, GATE students (in some areas), and I guess bubble kids.

I absolutely believe that every student deserves attention. My at grade level students deserve very similar attention to SPED, bubble, high, low...whatever.

I am not saying they have to be pulled out, but they deserve "services" as well.
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Why give someone more than what they need? When I was in school if I was capable of doing something by myself I sure didn't want my teacher sitting on top of me doing it with me. Yes, there's a time to be challenged, but I think appropriate challenges are the ones most students can successfully master on their own with just some guidance from the teacher.
 
Pashtun said:
EVERYONE in my class deserves to read one to one with me. Every student in my class deserves individual attention.

I am glad I work at a school where admin tried scaffolding reading groups. They tried putting 30 high achieving students with 1 teacher, while the below, at..etc had like 8 kids to a teacher...it was shot down immediately. The high kids deserve to have small group with a teacher as well.

Comparing a kid in a wheelchair, to all children deserving to read one to one with a teacher is silly and moronic.
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Why can't you read one one one with all of your students? I conference weekly with every one of my students regardless of their reading level/service. Yes, other students get other services and might get more one on one attention in other areas. Yes, all students deserve one on one attention at some point, but all students do not NEED the same amount of attention.
 
Pashtun said:
We can agree to disagree. I simply believe that above and at grade level students deserve attention, its simply not ok with me that they are passing , so they are good.
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No one is saying they don't deserve attention. You're actually saying they deserve services equal to all other students which is where we disagree.
 
iteachbx said:
Why give someone more than what they need? When I was in school if I was capable of doing something by myself I sure didn't want my teacher sitting on top of me doing it with me. Yes, there's a time to be challenged, but I think appropriate challenges are the ones most students can successfully master on their own with just some guidance from the teacher.
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Exactly right. I also think there is such thing as giving a good too much. If you give a kid unnecessary services, it may make him or less less independent. This will be problematic down the road.
 
iteachbx said:
Why give someone more than what they need? When I was in school if I was capable of doing something by myself I sure didn't want my teacher sitting on top of me doing it with me. Yes, there's a time to be challenged, but I think appropriate challenges are the ones most students can successfully master on their own with just some guidance from the teacher.
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I don't know where you teach, but where I teach, high students crave teacher time to discuss challenging concepts.

I think its a huge misconception to think that just because they are high that that means it should be less time with the teacher or that they need less involvement from the teacher.
 
RadiantBerg said:
Exactly right. I also think there is such thing as giving a good too much. If you give a kid unnecessary services, it may make him or less less independent. This will be problematic down the road.
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I think we teach different. High students crave the teacher-student interaction, they are not turned off by it at all. I think you may be confusing sitting and doing it with a kid, with a teacher devoting 100% of their time to guiding high level discussions and activities?
 
Pashtun said:
Correct. We identify students as GATE, but they receive absolutely NOTHING, and by nothing, I mean they get a piece of paper saying they are gate qualified.
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This is true in my experience as well. We sign a form for each student, and that is it. Truly. Literally nothing. Ever.

And yes, we pay a gifted and talented teacher. :rolleyes:
 
Pashtun said:
I think we teach different. High students crave the teacher-student interaction, they are not turned off by it at all. I think you may be confusing sitting and doing it with a kid, with a teacher devoting 100% of their time to guiding high level discussions and activities?
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I think everyone here would agree that all teachers should devote 100% of their time to guiding high level discussions and activities, but this is certainly not what we mean when we talk about special services for students with particular needs.
 
Pashtun said:
Correct. We identify students as GATE, but they receive absolutely NOTHING, and by nothing, I mean they get a piece of paper saying they are gate qualified.
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That is sad. Our district has multiple levels of gifted education from pull-out services for a short time each week to an entire program for elementary students. In MS and HS they have advanced classes available and a magnet school for those that are lucky enough to test in and then be selected for the very few spots available.
 
a2z said:
That is sad. Our district has multiple levels of gifted education from pull-out services for a short time each week to an entire program for elementary students. In MS and HS they have advanced classes available and a magnet school for those that are lucky enough to test in and then be selected for the very few spots available.
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EXACTLY. Maybe I am not making my point very well...but high achieving kids DESERVE this.
 
a2z said:
An aside: Just about every state gives back some special education funds to the federal government each year because they don't use them all. I'm sure this is due to poor management and budgeting of funds.
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Interesting. Do you have a source?
 
Pashtun said:
EXACTLY. Maybe I am not making my point very well...but high achieving kids DESERVE this.
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But they aren't getting pull-out that is anything like the low kids. They get a different program. Instead of being in the regular math class with the at grade level or above grade level non-gifted, they go to a different class all together, but they probably get less attention and instruction than the low kids or the regular ed students. They get more independent working time in an environment where others don't see them doing something different. It is more about not disturbing and because the numbers are high enough to do so because the schools are so large. So, instead of the typical language arts, the kids go to a different classroom. It is a lot like tracking without the label of tracking.

So, low kids get 1:1 - 1:3 attention and the gifted kids get 1:25 attention.
 
a2z said:
But they aren't getting pull-out that is anything like the low kids. They get a different program. Instead of being in the regular math class with the at grade level or above grade level non-gifted, they go to a different class all together, but they probably get less attention and instruction than the low kids or the regular ed students. They get more independent working time in an environment where others don't see them doing something different. It is more about not disturbing and because the numbers are high enough to do so because the schools are so large. So, instead of the typical language arts, the kids go to a different classroom. It is a lot like tracking without the label of tracking.

So, low kids get 1:1 - 1:3 attention and the gifted kids get 1:25 attention.
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OH nvm. What you describe here sounds pretty bad.
 
czacza said:
Wow.
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I know right.

Every effective teacher I know, knew how to talk about teaching, knew how and the importance of looking at data, knew how to evaluate what strategies were effective, how to talk to other teachers about their strategies. How to reflect and make changes.The importance of collaboration. Ever effective teacher I know has been doing this for YEARS.

These teachers never needed a formal PLC program, training, and implementation...it's the crappy teachers, who never want to talk about the meat and potatoes of teaching. So now we have a program devoted to them.
 
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