What should be the consequence?

Discussion in 'General Education' started by letsteach, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Nov 24, 2007

    yeah, he couldn't be that little or naive that he didn't bother to take it to the office.

    a kindergartener knows if something doesn't belong to him, it should go to the office - where the lost and found box is located.

    what prompted the little kid to trust this 7th grader? maybe they found it together, or maybe the 7th grader lied and told the kid he would take in the office for him.
     
  2. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    Nov 24, 2007

    Finder's keeper's doesn't apply here. No one said that because he found it, it now belongs to him. EVERYONE has said that what the kid did was wrong. Harping on the finder's keepers point is pointless.

    There is no law that says finder's keepers is illegal though. So to say it's a criminal offense is just wrong. No one is saying to let the kid off. This kid needs to be punished, but a suspension is over the top in this situation. I agree with everything Alice said. This was far too important for a teacher to just lose.

    Is it easy to lose a USB key? Of course it is! But it's also very easy for a student to lose their pencils before class, but are they punished for doing so? I remember I was! In the same way, teacher's need to know that if they lose something, there are consequences. The consequence is that a kid could come and get it. Excusing the teacher because it's "easy to lose" is a poor excuse.
     
  3. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Nov 24, 2007

    There is a fine line here. A dollar on the ground, finders keepers. A dollar sealed in a lunch money envelope, theft. A disk drive or jump drive sitting on the bus stop - lost property - no feasible way to find owner. Anything found at school, - assumed school/staff property. If he did not return it to the Office, he has lost/stolen property in his possession. For that reason, he is wrong.

    Deleting files is just plain evil. There was no reason to do that. You have to know what you are doing, and know how it affects somebody to even think about doing that. That to me is the bigger crime.

    I say no computer lab for the rest of the year. Must be some policy on computer usage, and that is a clear violation. He must write papers out in long hand from now on, so he can feel the pain of that teacher rewriting her lost documents.

    I would tell Dad that he may want to consider locking up (blocked access) to all the computers, because he has no respect for others. Therefore, he should not have the privilege of using one at home either.

    That would teach him that missuse and destroying other peoples' property will cause you to lose your privilege to do the same thing.
     
  4. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Nov 24, 2007

     
  5. eduk8r

    eduk8r Enthusiast

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    Ah, actually there are laws in each state that make "finders/keepers" illegal. You'd have to ask 3 Sons for specifics because I can't remember how it goes but if you find something, you are supposed to turn it in to the police. To keep something you know belongs to someone else is stealing. Period. But the boy did some "mischief" and erased files, then returned it (if I understand right). He is a 7th grade student, 12 or 13 years old, not a criminal. Not yet. He should have some way to make reparation but to involve police? Have we forgotten what it's like to be a kid, 'cause I haven't, I still remember some of the dumb things I did and how clueless I was about it. If he is treated like a criminal, he might just end up one. But for now he's just a kid who did something unintelligent and showed bad judgment. You can't expect that kid to have a full adult realization of how important or not the files were on that drive. I can just picture him erasing those files and thinking it was funny.

    As for the little kid, he surely did not know what it was, looks up to big kids the way all little kids do, and just handed him the flash drive because the big kid was probably excited about it and he wanted to make a big kid happy.

    The teacher who lost it is probably just about as careless as any of the rest of us who lose things sometimes, right?
     
  6. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Nov 24, 2007

    Absolutely. But when I lost my keys a year ago (my house keys; I was home with the kids at that point), it was MY fault, and no one else's.(Turned out that they were in the pocket of the jacket I wore to take the kids trick or treating, and turned up the following spring.)But I was careless, I lost them, it was MY fault and not someone else's fault. I think that's the point I'm trying to make, along with a need for better supervision of the kids involved.
     
  7. eduk8r

    eduk8r Enthusiast

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    Nov 24, 2007

    Alice, I didn't even notice you said anything about losing the flashdrive! There were a bunch of posters who said that. You're right about better supervision of the kids, but these things happen.

    I really think TG's suggestion at the beginning of this thread is a good one, and then the boy can work it off with his parents. That way, he will get to understand these things are serious while at the same time be able to "redeem" himself. IMHO :)
     
  8. Yank7

    Yank7 Habitué

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    Nov 24, 2007

    I have been surprised by some of the responses in this thread so I decided to get another point of view I gave the problem to the group of fifth graders who make up our student government.After discussing it among themselves,they felt the younger child should be called down and be told what the correct procedure would be the next time he finds an object that does not belong to him.They agreed that anyone could lose something,no matter how important ,so they felt the teacher was not to blame.However they felt the older child knew what he was doing and should be punished by having his father called and the student be given a one week in-house suspension with the warning that the next time he commits a criminal act the police will be notified.All work for that week must be completed to the best of his ability.The entire group believed the student knew full well what he was doing and it was not just mischief.
    I am very proud of this group as they are responsible for making up our schools constitution and acting as a student court to see it is enforced.Last week they found a twenty dollar bill in the room we use for our meeting and brought it up to me immediately.We were able to find the boy who lost it.These are the type of students we should hear more about and makes me proud to be a teacher.
     
  9. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Nov 24, 2007

    out of the mouths of babes...

    and..

    a little child shall lead..

    I totally agree...

    The reason why it is a crucial matter is because this 7th grader took it upon himself to go into the computer lab and wipe out the teacher's files. Now, if he did it at home, that would be another issue. So, he violated school policies, and had the potential to wreck critical software/hardware in the process...having unauthorized use of files and computer equipment.

    and... he could have had access to and possibly tampered with grades, personal info, and data that could even shut the school down...

    he is no longer behaving like a kid..and therefore should be punished for his actions.

    mischief is tossing eggs on a teacher's car
    wiping out data and using a computer to do so is vandalism

    yeah, the egg is vandalism too..but a napkin and some soapy water will fix that.

    what if that kid hit the wrong button and wiped out all the grades?

    similiar story...

    When I was in 8th grade, we had a few boys who would pull the fire alarm every day around end of the day. Teachers and principals got so frustrated, they just started letting us go home!

    Finally, fire department started fining the school for false alarms.

    Warning went out: anyone seen touching fire alarm would get suspended. that stopped the problem immediately.

    this was a foolish prank. but had severe consequences. it was taking the firefighters away from a real incident.
     
  10. pwhatley

    pwhatley Maven

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    Nov 24, 2007

    I almost totally agree with you here. However, I disagree about the drive found on the school bus being untraceable, for one specific reason. The minute that drive was inserted into a USB slot, the option to view its contents is available to anyone on the computer. The 7th grader who deleted the files had every opportunity to return it to the teacher who lost it. All he had to do to discover to whom the drive belonged was to look at some of the files/pictures. Was the teacher careless? Yes, but it would have been the same if the object was a wallet, a photo album, a folder containing student tests, etc. It should have been turned into Lost and Found.

    Okay, here I disagree. Deleting the files was not evil -- it was rude, it was thoughtless, it was mean. True, there was no reason to do it other than he wanted the space to use for his own stuff. As a self-confessed computer geek, I find the teacher at fault for not backing her files up, something that I am finding more teachers neglect to do! The drive itself could be purchased for under $50, depending upon it's file storage size. My 2GB flash drive cost me $30 on sale. At any rate, what the kid did was wrong. I do not think that out of school suspension (enforced either by dad or the school) is an appropriate punishment. In fact, it is probably giving the kid just what he wants -- free time with no school. That helps no one.

    Just a thought I want to express: I am thrilled that Yank7's fifth graders discussed and came to a resolution of this situation! I think their thoughts are valid and on point. Their's are the most practical and appropriate actions mentioned to date, IMHO. Go Yank7!
     
  11. eduk8r

    eduk8r Enthusiast

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    Pulling a fire alarm is a serious offense because lives could be lost. There is a law about that, too, for that reason. However in school it usually turns out to be a joke. I remember you could count on it when I was in middle school during spring time after lunch.... it would happen every day until the person got caught. As a kid, it was fun getting out of the classroom and standing out on the lawn in the sunshine talking with friends. (nope, I never pulled an alarm, I was too obedient for that sort of thing--I just enjoyed the effects LOL) That's the way kids look at things, we looked at the kid who did it as a kind of hero, LOL.

    This kid is just a kid with a kid's judgment. But the way some people talk he is an evil demono who should be put away for a few years to "teach him a lesson." Yeah, that always turns a kid's path, that always helps. That's why we keep building more prisons...
     
  12. Budaka

    Budaka Cohort

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    Nov 24, 2007

    Hmmm, to get back to the original post.

    I worry about sending any student to an alternative school unless it is the last resort. Where I live alternative schools are very BAD places and students will come out (if they come out) much worse than they went in. :(
     
  13. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    Nov 24, 2007

    A boy this age probably deleted the files from the jump drive for one of the following reasons:
    - in erasing the files, it wouldn't be traced and he could claim it as his own
    - he erased the files as a prank
    - he knew who it belonged to and erased it to get back at the teacher for a "wrong" committed against him
    Whatever the reason, I really feel that the punishment needs to fit the crime (not fit "crimes" he is suspected of committing in the past). Restricted computer use at school should be a given (although I'm not sure how he had unsupervised access to a computer at school in the first place). Perhaps an appropriate consequence would be to spend some of his recesses or after-school time helping the teacher replace the lost files--typing out worksheets, tests, creating tables to record marks,etc. Although we don't know the student or any history, it does seem that painting him as a future criminal on the basis of a childish prank is a little extreme (and perhaps he is now getting just what he wants by having some time off school.)
     
  14. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Nov 24, 2007

    If everyone who came across something that didn't belong to them (money, phone, jumpdrive), we would be living in a much better world.
     
  15. Rabbitt

    Rabbitt Connoisseur

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    Nov 24, 2007

    I see your point about it being your fault. Are you saying that it's your fault if someone used those keyes in an improper way?
     
  16. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    What I am saying is that:

    - it's OK to be annoyed when someone is a jerk. But once the teacher lost that USB drive, those files were gone. Had she gotten them back it would have been a bonus. She didn't get them back.

    -- Teachers need to be incredibly careful with their school stuff. That means keys, grade books, whatever. We need to realize that we're dealing with kids-- in this case elementary school kids-- who don't always show the respect we would like them to show.

    -- Kids need to be supervised. This child somehow had enough unsupervised time to steal a key, use it to get into and rumage around a classroom and get into a teacher's desk and purse, and delete a series of files from the USB drive. It seems to me that this child (and presumably the others in his school) need a WHOLE lot more supervision. My keys are never left out on my desk. Neither is my grade book or any copy of a test I haven't yet given. Tests are stored in a locked cabinet. We're dealing with kids. We need to assume that sometimes they'll take an opportunity when it's presented, as much as we would hope otherwise.

    --When I lost my keys, I knew I was the one who had lost them. I didn't blame anyone for their disapperance. I also knew that I had put them somewhere and that they would show up, so no one would have the opportunity to use them as you suggested. (The only ones I blamed were some of the people here; I'm pretty sure that JamieMarie flew down to Long Island and hid them on me.) (And deleting the files from the USB is roughly similar to throwing either the USB or the keys down the sewer, not using them to do damage.)Adults take responsibility for their own actions and their own belongings.

    Does this kid need some real parenting? yes. Also a better sense of respect for other's belongings. But I do fault the teachers for giving him such access to materials that should have been out of his reach.

    When my daughter was 2 she swallowed a quarter. (We went to the ER and you could see it, ridges and all, clear as day in her throat.) But, even though she put the quarter there all by herself, I blamed myself, not her. Quite simply, it shouldn't have been on the floor where she could get to her. While I didn't see it and wouldn't have anticipated that it would look appetizing, that's not the point. As the adult in charge, it was my responsibility to keep temptation out of her way, and I failed in that responsibility. (Of course, I paid for it with 6 weeks of checking dirty diapers until the quarter passed.)

    We, as teachers, are supposed to teach responsibility. That starts with showing it ourselves.

    OK, off my soapbox and done with this thread.
     
  17. runsw/scissors

    runsw/scissors Phenom

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    Nov 25, 2007

    Jumping into the discussion late so forgive me if any of this has been said. Personally, if the school has an on-sight officer (GREAT, DARE, or anything else) that officer needs to sit down with this young man and have a chat about the choices he has been making. Second, the school counselor needs to be notified (if this hasnt already happened) so that s/he can also meet with said student. Parents should also be contacted. Why is this child acting up? You indicate there is a history of such behavior. When did it start? Is there anything going on outside of school that might have brought this about? Not that any of these circumstances would excuse the behaviors, but they would give indication of a starting point from which to work.

    The student needs to make restitution for what he did. I like the idea of the child footing the bill for a file recovery service. In-school suspension makes sense to me as well. I think expulsion would be a bit extreme, but removal from the peer population for a time might help bring the messege home-If you choose to act like this around your peers, you won't be with them. We will have to watch your every move until we feel we can trust you.
     

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