What is proper punishment for ES kids??? Need Advice PLEASE

Discussion in 'Special Education' started by rookieABC123, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. rookieABC123

    rookieABC123 Comrade

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jan 27, 2011

    I am currently teaching in a K-2 emotional support room. Yes, my students are there for a reason...they are truly emotionally disabled. Yes, they sometimes act out aggressively towards others but they are ED!!!!! None of my students have ever seriously physically hurt anyone, even though they have hit or thrown items in reg. ed. rooms which I've been called to and I've removed the student. They are only out of my room for homeroom, specials (gym, music, etc...) and handwriting.


    I've been taking a lot of CRAP from a particular reg. ed. teacher who has my students for 5% of the day. She claims I am not disciplining them enough and I am blinded by their "extreme behavior" I think she expects me to scream at them like she does, which will absolutely never happen!!! She calls my room constantly in the morning when she has my students and asks me to come and remove (usually a particular student) I think he tries to make her miserable so that she does call me (granted this is during my only prep time of the day) I am literally with these students all day...no prep. except a little time first thing in a.m.

    I do have rewards and consequences set up in my room, I am very consistent. I don't agree with taking away days of recess for verbal aggression/physical (when it's not serious) I do take away 1 or 2 days depending on situation at which time they write an apology letter to the person they had a problem with and we talk about how to handle the situation better next time. I think she wants them suspended...but what will that cure? Nothing in my opinion. Most come from very difficult home environments and their parents don't give a crap anyways. If the child escalated so bad they had to be restrained and sent home---I think it's punishment enough.
    I am extremely positive and immediately reward good behavior. I feel as though I am the only positive role model in their lives. I'm so torn!!
    Need advice on this one....you wouldn't discipline a blind student for not being able to see..........


    I may be totally out of line. So let me know how you handle this.
     
  2.  
  3. bros

    bros Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,105
    Likes Received:
    68

    Jan 27, 2011

    Get the principal involved.

    Help the gen ed teachers set up your system of punishment/rewards in their classrooms for the students so they have consistency
     
  4. Kate Change

    Kate Change Companion

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jan 27, 2011

    I used to teach that population, but a little older. I set up a system that worked well and explained it to the regular ed teachers I worked with. If they were resistant, I explained ABA and why we were doing it. I also explained, with a laugh at the beginning "Well, we know yelling at them doesn't work! By the time they get to be in my class, we know plenty of people have tried that already! Ha ha ha."

    If they absolutely wouldn't buy in, I'd make discrete inquiries to other teachers at that grade level and move the kiddos, making sure to let the office know what a big help it was that their new teacher was so willing to be a team player and take on these tough kids.

    In my room, we didn't look at anything as punnishment. It's all consequences. Good behavior, good consequence, bad behavior, bad consequence. I made my kids "buy" everything (except the bathroom, water and meals) with classroom dollars. They earned classroom dollars for working and got bonuses for handling difficult situations well. Misbehavior lead to fines. They understood the system and they knew that there regular ed teacher could fine them and give them bonuses, so they had an added incentive to do well in those settings. It wasn't perfect, but it worked pretty well.
     
  5. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,485
    Likes Received:
    1,388

    Jan 28, 2011

    i had a similar experience with one of my students a few years ago. by the time he reached my class, he was in 4th grade and had been suspended more than 70 times since kindergarten. The 4th grade teacher was completely inappropriate for his needs. She would do everything she could to push his buttons, and then when he responded with cursing or threatening violence, she would run to the office and go around telling everyone he was a sociopath and should be institutionalized.
    We had him removed from her class and placed with me full time and things worked out much better for the child.
    Some teachers just don't have the personality or ability to work with certain populations of students. I would move the child.
     
  6. EmptyClassroom

    EmptyClassroom Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0

    Feb 8, 2011

    We have those teachers at my school, too; their goal seems to be, "complain until they take him/her from my room." Our program doesn't have the administrative support, at either the school or district level, to fight that even though we know it's illegal. We've had some success sending an aide with the student. We've also had sucess pulling the regular ed teacher into an ARC / intervention meeting w/ administration. Once they know the student will be remaining in the room, they usually back off. Don't know that it would help in your situation, but it might be worth a try. I also created some documentation forms that, admittedly, were long and detailed and I knew would never be filled out by the teacher. I told them we had to have it for documentation if they were going to fail a student, etc. Basically, if it wasn't done, then nothing would be done on our end. It works most of the time. They don't fill it out, and we don't make the moves. On the upside, it's good documentation for more serious problems that do need to be addressed, too.
     
  7. Mr.E

    Mr.E Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0

    Feb 11, 2011

    I encounter the same issue on a high school level. Sometimes it seems like a teacher is looking for a reason to kick a student out of class, but I think our students take comfort knowing that doesn't happen in our classrooms because we are consistent and positive. I also think you should take it as a compliment that this teacher feels comfortable relying on you for help.

    In regards to discipline, I do not feel that we are blinded by behavior. We are dealing with much high rates of inappropriate and defiant behavior, so our strategies will look much different than what might be found in a general education classroom.
     
  8. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Feb 11, 2011

    It sounds like you are doing everything you can for the student already. It is the teacher that has the problem.

    I like the suggestion of class money, although I don't know if it is appropriate for your age group and I'm sure the regular ed teacher would make it a point to "fine" the student excessively.

    Including the teacher in an ARC / intervention meeting with administration sounds like another good idea. Once the teacher sees she will NOT be backed by the Principal on this issue, she may back off.

    As for alternative consequences, I'm not sure if it is appropriate or would work for your kids, but my own son recently brought home a writing assignment from a teacher for talking in class. The instruction sheet actually contains two writing assignments; one dealing with respect and the other with talking out of turn in class. Both assignments explain WHY the student should show respect or refrain from talking out of turn. It gives examples of how to properly show respect and asks the student to write in their own words how they were showing disrespect with their actions. The "talking" assignment is shorter, but can be copied multiple times if necessary.

    Rather than having students write 50 to 100 times "I will not talk out of turn in class", this assignment describes WHY it is important to show respect or refrain from talking out of turn, so it helps reinforce the reasons for following those behaviors rather than just giving a negative consequence for not following them.

    If that would work for your kids (and you are interested), I can try to scan a copy and send it to you.
     
  9. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Feb 19, 2011

    First, yes - I think all of us can relate to "those teachers," although I do think there are couple varietals (wine language appropriate here? :)).

    I think there are basically two issues you raise - first, are YOU doing the right thing in terms of intervention, and two - what to do about the other teacher.

    There have been a lot of good suggestions here, but the ultimate question is "Is it working?" If you have established a goal and standard for success, and are meeting that goal, and making educational progress, then you are experiencing success. If you aren't, then you aren't, and changes need to be made.

    In terms of the other teacher, she does have a point - your standard is different. You deal with that behavior all day every day, so you are used to it and it affects you (and your classroom) differently. This does NOT mean that you aren't being successful, but it does mean that the child is a different experience for you in your classroom than for the other teacher in his/hers.

    It sounds, though, like that teacher isn't dealing with that "different experience" very effectively, though - rather than asking for help, brainstorming possible solutions, etc., the teacher is just complaining and getting upset. It could be that the teacher just wants the child gone, or that the teacher has a more traditional approach to discipline and doesn't like your more "soft" approach.

    Overall, it sounds like - to a degree - you are seeking validation that you are taking the right approach with this child (and with your class), but the ultimate validation is in the data that supports whether the child is learning. It doesn't matter what the other teacher thinks, or what we think, if the data demonstrates progress. That would be my answer to question 1.

    Question 2 - what to do about the other teacher - I would say either try to build a better relationship with the teacher and better understand what the concerns are, and why the teacher is approaching the situation in that particular way (if you feel like there is reason to believe the teacher could "come around" eventually), or - as bros said above - get the principal involved if s/he is supportive, without creating more drama.

    Just my $0.02 :)
     
  10. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,104

    Feb 19, 2011

    There should always be consequences that kids understand as a result of their behaviors. Not punishment.
     
  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Feb 19, 2011

    Czacza - definitely one of the most popular discussions/debates in the history of behavior support/education :), and for good reason - there are a lot of "side effects" of punishment or consequences, and lot of other important things to know before using. However, the terms consequences and punishment are often confused and used in the wrong way.

    A consequence, in behavioral language, simply means anything that happens after the behavior occurs - good, bad, rewarding, punishing - all of it.

    Punishment simply means something that happens after the behavior which reduces the future occurrence of the behavior. Typically, punishments are aversive (something the child doesn't like), or involve removing something preferred.

    So, the typical distinction people make between consequences and punishments is really a matter of terminology. Typically, when trying to make that distinction, people are referring to consequences meaning a logical action from an adult that is linked to the problem behavior for educational purposes - to teach the child a better way of behavior. A punishment, rather, is seen as something that is done for the benefit of the adult, or simply to "pay back" the child for what s/he did, but not to help him/her.

    In the actual definitions, a good, logical "consequence" that results in the problem behavior happening less often in the future is actually labeled a "punishment." Punishment, in the true sense of the word, is a subcategory of consequence, and by itself holds no inherently "good" or "bad" meaning - an action isn't bad just because it's a "punishment," but there are certainly bad punishments out there!

    I guess I'm choosing to be overly particular here because I think clarity of communication is important. I would never advocate inappropriate punishment for the sake of gratifying or appeasing the adult in the situation, or punishment that is overly harsh, not fitting of the situation, or not done in a research-based manner. However, I do think its important for educators to not dismiss suggestions or strategies involving "punishment" because of misconceptions or confusion over terminology.
     
  12. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,104

    Feb 19, 2011

    Yes, thank you. I've had those classes as well. I do believe it's important for kids to know that the actions taken after inappropriate behavior choices ARE a consequence of those choices...
     
  13. CanukTeach

    CanukTeach Companion

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    0

    Feb 19, 2011

    Does your state spec ed law have a role in what is reasonable? In my region you HAVE to consider if the student's behaviour was impacted by their special needs when determining consequences (which means for example less frequent suspensions). This provides for framing of these types of dialogues with other teachers.
     
  14. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Feb 19, 2011

    Czacza - agreed :).
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. RainStorm,
  2. ally06,
  3. Missy
Total: 298 (members: 3, guests: 274, robots: 21)
test