What do you do with a new student who is apathetic?

Discussion in 'Secondary Education' started by a teacher, Jan 22, 2016.

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  1. a teacher

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    Jan 22, 2016

    When you get a new student or start a new semester and there is a kid who is obviously a mess, what do you do? I have no tolerance for kids who sit around like zombies doing nothing. From the way some people here have responded to things in the past I would assume many would say something like, "I'd try to get to know the student and win their trust" or some such thing. Right off the bat, I have no patience for that kind of thing. My regular approach is to let the kid know that if they want to sit around like a fool they will be having a very hard time in my class and basically that they need to get their act in gear.

    If they don't respond after an initial phone call to parents, I put them far away in the room where they will be sort of out of my sight and out of my mind so they don't get on my nerves. Of course, if they show an interest in getting with reality and start working, I'm there right away to encourage. Anyone have some realistic (i.e. something teachers actually do in terms of strategies as opposed to good soldier talk) methods I might be able to adapt?
     
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  3. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Jan 23, 2016

    Maybe you can just leave them alone? Your comment of "I have no patience" says that you seriously dislike kids who are not jumping for joy to be in your class. It will happen. You don't like it, you don't want to get to know the kid, leave him alone.
    You don't need to put him in a far-far-away land from you where he won't be an eyesore. As long as he's not sleeping, let him be.
    You have no idea what some of these kids deal with.

    I have students who want to sleep in class because they're homeless and have to watch their back while sleeping on the street, or are abused, throw-away kids, unloved and are seriously depressed and "checking out" is their coping mechanism. Of course we don't let them sleep but we are tolerant to their situation.
    Of course there are plenty of students who are not happy about all the work I make them do, or English or school in general, but as long as they're not disruptive and are not sleepy, I'm ok. I always gently nudge them or encourage them to do the work, but they know that it's because I care.
    if the kid is staring into space, or drawing while we're reading, I simply walk up to him as I'm walking around, open the book on the right page, put it in front of him and show him where we are. No lecture, no threat, no condemnation, no annoyance, just redirection. It almost always works.

    I can imagine there are kids who don't care about art, or like I said, are dealing with more problems than you could ever imagine. You always post about apathetic kids, maybe you could just stop judging them, stop disliking them and have a little tolerance and patience.
    Sorry to be rude, this is just how i feel.
     
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  4. a teacher

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    I have no problem leaving them alone I guess. I just wondered what others do. I never said I dislike kids who are not "jumping for joy", but like most teachers I can't stand apathy. And I don't put them that far away, just in parts of the room (and never away from others) where they won't be constantly in my line of sight where I need to look at a dumb face. And all my students are dealing with difficult things. Most don't act like zombies. And those who are are most likely not homeless or desperate. Assuming that leaves you in a position to be manipulated.
     
  5. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Your attitude towards your students seriously disturbs me. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier and more effective in a different profession?

    Of course, we only know you through your many posts in this forum. Maybe things are different for you in real life.
     
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  6. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    What others do is this: they try to get to know the kids, to know who they are, why they act the way they act and during that process they find out if there is a problem which needs to be referred to a counselor, services or they just need a teacher who cares. Or maybe they're spoiled little brats, or maybe they're staying up all night drinking and using, and during the day they're not really there. Either way, they figure out how to help these kids, or in the last 2 examples, there's not much help, so they leave them alone.
    There's always a point when a teacher throws in the towel (especially with older grades, not elementary) and say I've tried all I could, I'm done, but it's never on the first day when they say oh, this kid is sitting here like a zombie (like you said) and I don't like it, I don't wanna look at that face so I'm gonna seat him somewhere a little away from me.

    A dumb face?? Are you kidding me? Look at the things you're saying!! Why do you want to be a teacher again?

    And I don't get what you're saying about manipulation. I'm not being manipulated, all I do is care about my students and try to help. I'm not even doing all that I could, because it is my nature to be a little old fashioned and hardcore and I expect everyone to be on the same page. No one is manipulating me, I actually have absolutely no problems in any of my classes, and these are some of the most difficult kids you can have.
     
  7. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    I have never understood your attitude. As another poster said, I hope you're different in real life. If a student isn't working, I talk with multiple people including the student, his family, other teachers, and the guidance counselor. I walk through things step by step. Instead of expecting him to complete an entire essay, I'll work with him on a thesis statement, then an attention grabber, etc... It usually helps. Sometimes they still won't work, so we continue to document our intervention strategies. That becomes important should anyone ever complain. Then you have a clear record of what you've done to try and help.
     
  8. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    Jan 23, 2016

    You've asked the same sort of question many times here and, each time, you are unhappy with the responses you receive. Many of us are responding the way that we are because our approach works for us. Kids are incredibly intuitive; they know exactly how the adults in their lives feel about them and they respond in kind.
     
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  9. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Most kids will not respond to your method of dealing with them. At least not well. At best, you can hope for them to continue sitting there apathetically. At worst they will personally consider you an enemy and butt heads with you and with your current method of dealing with students you will fall into endless power struggles.

    Getting to know a student and building a rapport with them won't work on its own (you also need to hold them to high expectations for behavior and be consistent in your classroom management also), but it's a necessary piece for being a teacher that students want to work for. I say this as one of the least touchy-feely and more strict teachers in my school. Getting to know a student can consist of simply asking them how their weekend was as you greet them in the doorway, or listening to them tell you about this show they watched last night, a book they're reading, or their favorite boy-band, even if you hate boy-band music--you can even tell them that its not your favorite, they just want to talk to you. You don't even have to ask them about it most of the time. They'll bring it up on their own. It doesn't take much, just a willingness to listen and treat them like real people. Building a relationship with students is one of the easiest parts of this job and it provides so many rewards.

    If you don't have the patience to get to know a student in your class, and find the best method to work with them, then I agree with the others. Maybe you should look into another profession.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
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  10. Merc

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    Jan 23, 2016

    You're describing the same kind of look a lot of veterans have when they suffer from some forms of PTSD. Lots of students suffer from severe PTSD and are never given the help they need. Don't assume you know what a student is feeling. It's a brutal world for a lot of them and you'll never know about it. Treat them with kindness, and you might get the results you're looking for.
     
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  11. 2ndTimeAround

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    I feel for you OP. I won't be rude and insulting and suggest that you find a different job. I understand that it is difficult trying to teach some students. And that some students have zero desire or willingness to do what it takes to learn.

    In the past two years I've had students that were incredibly apathetic. When asked why they don't try when their teachers are spending so much time and effort to get them to learn they've given some really interesting answers.

    I'm only here to see my friends. (my husband was like this. He would have dropped out if it wasn't for the cute girls he got to see each day at school)

    I work 40 hours a week at my father's store. I come to school to get a break. It doesn't matter if I fail everything - my uncle will give me one of his stores when I turn 18. (true - it happened with his siblings)

    It doesn't matter if I fail everything - I'm going to get pregnant when I'm a junior and get welfare. (she did get pregnant as a junior - don't know about her government assistance.)

    You're lucky I even go to your class. I only come for breakfast and lunch.

    I don't care about my grades. I'm here to network (aka - sell drugs).

    Why does it matter if I graduate? I got a job waiting for me. My mom said I can't drop out until I'm 16 (so does the law)

    I doesn't matter how much you love your students, talk to them, chat with them, if they have had their families/friends/society tell them they don't need a high school diploma, they aren't going to try. Some of these kids are really bright, and know it, so we can't blame insecurity on their decisions. Some are not very bright at all, and know it, and realize they aren't going to be doctors or world leaders, so why bother - they can make more money with less effort on their own. Some already are heavily involved in gangs and no teacher, spending an hour a day with them, is going to convince them that studying vocabulary at night will be better for them than their gang activities.

    Having apathetic students is tough for a teacher. Sometimes all you can do is document your attempts, refer to guidance and make sure they don't prevent other students from learning.
     
  12. a teacher

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    Thank you for providing the only intelligent response to my post. I have no use for these fake good soldiers who claim they get to know obnoxious kids with stupid looks on their faces. We all know that's not what they really do! Anyone who's taught in a school knows that's not what high school teachers do!
     
  13. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Are you kidding me? why are you even posting the same stuff over and over again?? Every one thinks that you just want a rise out of us.

    The ONLY intelligent post is the one where someone somewhat agrees with you? And don't forget, that poster didn't agree with your attitude, just on the fact that there are and always will be apathetic students and there's not much you can do for them.

    I'm sorry but you're a joke. Your students don't like you, don't like your class, and according to you everyone else who is successful and actually cares is not intelligent, or a fake soldier or should change profession?? Oh please.
    And this last post is the stupidest I've ever heard, every word is just dumb. "Anyone who's taught in a school knows that's not what high school teachers do!" LMAO!! what do we do??

    I'm sure my post will get moderated, but I don't care, you pissed me off and now I told you how I feel lol.
     
  14. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I'm sorry if you felt my advice was an attack on you. As others have said, you've made it very clear from your other posts that you think getting to know students is a waste of time, and seem to think your only job should be as a lecturer who doesn't need to interact with students any more than a TV screen playing information for them from the front of the room might.

    I just don't believe that that is what good teaching is, it's a disservice to the kids, and I couldn't imagine myself or anyone enjoying doing that day in and day out as a job. Hence why I suggested a different profession.

    However you seem to adamantly disbelieve that teachers actually come to school and enjoy connecting with their students, and that in turn students enjoy connecting with their teachers. Since you can't be convinced otherwise (over the course of multiple threads), I will cease entering in these discussions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
  15. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    I have begun to think troll....
     
  16. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Your comments show an apathy toward your students who need your understanding. Have you ever considered that MANY teachers before you have acted the same way, essentially giving up on kids who themselves may have 'given up' due to fear of/repeated failures, a need for connection and compassion, home or other social-emotional issues? You want these students to change their attitudes, but have you considered changing yours?
     
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  17. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    I base my suspicions on years of similar postings by this OP
     
  18. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    :agreed:
     
  19. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Please define "good soldier talk".
     
  20. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    I put a lot of effort into kids who are apathetic or not performing as well as they should. I put in tons of effort. I constantly talk to them, encourage them, tell them they could do better, praise them when they get something turned in, etc. It's exhausting, but I always do it.

    There does come a point where I realize that nothing I say or do is having any affect (usually around the semester mark as we have students for the full school year). I never truly stop trying with any student, but at a certain point I will pull back. I will let them sit there and not do anything (after passing by a few times and telling them they need to work of course). I will let them get terrible grades on their tests. I will still tell them "you could do better" but I won't put in as much effort because I have 120+ other kids in my classes that need me too.
     
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  21. a teacher

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    Thank you for your understanding. I've always found it ironic how sensitive people on this forum can be when one of the major points of discussing things online is that you can freely vent. Some people here act like I'm screaming insults at a cocktail party. I'd hate to get into a conversation with some of these people in person!
    And yes, being frustrated doesn't equal "troll". Please...
     
  22. a teacher

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    Haven't posted for "years".
    And did it ever occur to you that many people may come here to vent, and, like at their actual school sites may want some empathy? A good soldier is a teacher who lets society kick their butts and never feels they have done enough because they have swallowed the company line about bending over backwards rather than say, put an annoying kid off to the side. Instead you need to figure out what they would like to do instead. Are you kidding?
     
  23. miatorres

    miatorres Comrade

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    Jan 25, 2016

    Years ago, I taught language arts and history at a middle and high school that were known to be rough. Most of the students were beyond apathetic and only showed up to school to cause trouble. Parents rarely would return any phone calls from the school and yet when they did, it was just to insult teachers and to never let us forget that they themselves didn't care about their kids' grades anyway. Even though I heard that these student populations were difficult before I even accepted a job there, I was still in culture shock to meet students/parents who were apathetic and troubled to that extreme.

    Some of the students' comments that 2ndTimeAround shared above (i.e., "It doesn't matter if I fail everything - I'm going to get pregnant when I'm a junior and get welfare" and "I don't care about my grades. I'm here to network - aka sell drugs") were the exact ones that every teacher at my old schools would hear every hour.

    Besides other approaches that I have described on other forum threads, another strategy is to give the students some type of responsibility in the classroom that they are capable of handling. Possibilities are to pass out materials, sharpen pencils, organize the classroom library, and decorate our bulletin boards. For several students, they started to feel important and valued in the classroom. I discovered that there were a few students who weren't capable of handling the responsibility as evidenced by how they purposely destroyed or stole the classroom materials. If I could find a different duty that they were capable of doing, then I would assign it to them.
     
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  24. miatorres

    miatorres Comrade

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    This discussion made me think about the cartoon that has been circulated online for quite some time now. In this day and age, there are still many parents who won't accept their kids' excuses for poor grades and will punish their kids for any grade lower than an "A" or "B." As teachers, some of us on this forum haven't taught at schools with average to high parental support.

    Explain-these-bad-grades.jpg
     
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  25. a teacher

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    Just to give some of you a more realistic picture of how I really work:
    Regarding the kid who was acting like a zombie, I told him he will need to wake up and get real or he will be facing a very long and difficult semester. Then I checked in on him a couple of times in the next week. Then, as I saw he was a hard head, I contacted his parents. They came in right away, extremely concerned telling me that he's been doing bad for a long time and apparently I'm the first teacher who's called them. I spoke with them at length. They had shown up without making an appointment but I still took my own (unpaid) time to meet with them. Afterwards I took their information and said we can all work together to get the kid on track.I then directed them to the counselors office. They didn't even know who his counselor was. I told them to make an appointment with the counselor to go over the bigger picture with this kid and that I wanted the counselor to get in touch with me as well.

    Now do you think I am an unfeeling and uncaring teacher? All I've been saying is that I'm not a counselor. I'm not going to delve into the psychology behind a dysfunctional kid. I'm not going to give them alternate assignments unless they are special ed. And I'm not going to waste energy on a kid who knows very well whats at stake for acting like a fool and not working. I have the other 99.9% of my students who want to work.

    As far as all those pathetic reasons for not working in school, I couldn't care less. Those people will be washing my car in the future. They will serve a purpose. But I'm not going to waste my time on them when that is clearly their purpose in life. Again, time spent on them is time lost on a kid who has earned your attention by caring and working and time lost on yourself to not be overworked! I'll do it if you want to pay me six figures. Otherwise I'd be as big a fool as the kid!
     
  26. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    I'll respond to just the first part, because I've participated in other threads of yours, but would prefer not to dive into any follow-up argument, which would be inevitable if I did respond to the rest.

    Reading that first paragraph, that sounds more as though you are doing many different things to try to help students than in previous posts or in previous threads. Perhaps it was skipped over by me (since I tend to quickly read through threads), but specifics such as this weren't mentioned in as much detail in most of the other threads, hence the reaction. This doesn't mean I fully agree with the rest of the attitude, but it paints a fuller picture than you have before, and I think giving that background will be helpful in future posts so that others don't have to assume quite as much.
     
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  27. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    What do you mean by this comment. Based on your previous discussions about how you deal with the apathetic, it is hard for me to understand what your version of "work together" would look like. Please elaborate.
     
  28. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    We can't help all distressed students, maybe not even most. But we can always act with compassion and in the best interests of the students.

    I'm struggling this year, because my students simply don't/can't care about school. I'm in an alternative setting and we have piles of interventions, but if a student isn't capable of meeting you part way, it is ultimately out of your hands.'

    For example, one student has very severe anxiety. He has his attendance more under control, but can't do work at home and works very slowly in class. I see no way for him to pass and graduate under his current circumstances. He is getting help, but he can't keep up with our timetable. I'm trying to be realistic and help him achieve in one class in the hopes that will encourage him.

    We can set boundaries, work on individualized interventions, and do our best, but we can't save everybody.

    In my experience students exhibiting extreme, continual apathy have serious issues to handle, mental health or otherwise. The sort of apathy you describe is generally not a kid acting a "fool" or something they can "snap out" of.

    Maybe you would benefit from a mental health first aid training course. Perhaps your district offers them.
     
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  29. a teacher

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    Education is a team effort. The parents and the kids should be working AT LEAST as hard as the teacher. Actually much harder!
     
  30. a teacher

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    You're right. Anyone acting half comatose obviously has huge personal issues. What's important is understanding that as a teacher you can't do much about it. Talking to ten people and trying to counsel the kid is a waste of time. You have to call them like you see them so you are working efficiently. Too much to do.
     
  31. a teacher

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    How would you differ in your "attitude"?
     
  32. jadorelafrance

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    Think about it this way. This is the only time that anyone is ever going to care about this kid. Once this kid reaches adulthood, the real world sets in and no one is going to care what his/her personal problems are. If he's/she's not doing his job, he's/she's fired. Now is the time for intervention and for people to reach out for him/her and to show compassion and understanding. It's not as simple as let the kid sit there and fail. That sets him/her up for failure later on and it's really just an endless cycle. At the end of the day, I want to say I did my very best and did all that I could.
     
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  33. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    This still doesn't describe what your part is going to look like.
     
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  34. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    As I said before, I don't want to dive into that argument -- the last two paragraphs are miles apart from what I believe and what I practice. There are times when you have to agree to disagree, and from previous discussions, I'd prefer not to go in circles in that regard. I simply wanted to point out a positive about the post, hoping that future posts will include that kind of background for the sake of you and everyone else who reads it being able to understand the situation at least a bit better, even if there still are major differences.
     
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  35. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    "A teacher" I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you operate in the way you described above, meaning you actually call home, talk to parents, and try everything.

    But can I make a suggestion?? When you pose a question of what to do with a kid, why don't you describe exactly what you're doing? because you saying you don't want to look at a dumb face, and you seat them away so you don't have to look at them, they're zombies, etc, you sound like you could care less, you're actually very offensive, so that's the kind of responses you're going to get.
     
  36. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    No. I do all of that. It can be frustrating me as a teacher because I want to "fix" things, but trying to help is never a waste of my time.
     
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  37. a teacher

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    Details are unimportant.
     
  38. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

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    Trying to help is why most of us joined the profession...
     
  39. a teacher

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    That's because I'm VENTING!
     
  40. a teacher

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    I think part of being effective is knowing what you can and can't control.
     
  41. a teacher

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    I disagree. People join the profession for a complex of reasons that are unique to each individual. I've never once met a teacher who is in the business because they want to help society. That may be an added benefit, but it's disingenuous to pretend that's your main motive, or even in the top 5 reasons why you stay in the job.
     
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