US Schools Best in the World: new data

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Tyler B., Jan 23, 2015.

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  1. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    Jan 25, 2015

    you are trying too hard here. Let me reiterate -I agree with you! Teachers are the most critical link in the chain.

    But whose fault is it that a poor teacher is allowed to continue doing the same? I would argue that this responsibility lies at the teacher's manager (our P) at the end of the day? You can argue that the teacher should want to do better or step down if they can't teach, but poor performers rarely do on their own initiative, especially if they are allowed to operate as they wish.

    In any other profession or line of work, that is how it works. And, that is how it should be in education as well. If we both agree that teachers make the most difference, then what can the P possibly spend his or her time on that is more important than correcting deficiencies within their own staff??


    It isn't micromanaging to get involved in correcting this either. IT IS (or should be) THEIR JOB!!! If teachers are the most critical link and the P isn't doing anything about it, then he/she is derelict in their duty as head of the school.

    Micromanaging is when the leader (or P in this case) creates rules and policies that hinders the efforts of the better teachers. Poor teachers need micromanaging in an effort to improve their performance or remove them from their classroom. Let your good employees do their jobs and fix or remove the others.
     
  2. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    Jan 25, 2015

    Oh ok ok I too was not sure how to take what you said.

    Yes this is truly sad and like I said not ALL kids will or should pass....they just can't and we are failing them and society (the US) when we do the above.
     
  3. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    Jan 25, 2015

    Yes, I agree with this. :thumb:
     
  4. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Jan 25, 2015

    The estimated cost of college these days (looking at the website for the the University of Alabama) is 12,500 dollars. And that's only if you find a space in the residential hall (most schools kick out students from their residential halls in their Junior and Senior years) and only eat from the cafeteria.

    That does not include transportation or any other expenses.
     
  5. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jan 25, 2015

    In my state tuition, room, and board at the least expensive state school is above 20K per year.

    Alabama that gives tuition breaks for students that have ACT scores of 30+ according to a friend of the family who lives in Alabama.
     
  6. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Jan 26, 2015

    Yikes.

    But yes, it's possible to get scholarships, and such. Generally these are only applicable to a very small percent of the population.
     
  7. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jan 26, 2015

    Yes. You can be a professional football player too!

    Getting a scholarship on merit at the state schools is tough and usually they are very small. The best scholarships are for the athletes at Div 1 schools. Any school under that doesn't allow scholarships for athletes.

    Private scholarships are much more widely available if you are poor and/or minority. No special talent or grades needed many times.
     
  8. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Jan 26, 2015

    True school reform requires strong, effective principals. It' a really hard job, and I agree with what you are saying. A strong principal will step out of the way of the best teachers and "fix or remove" the weak ones.
     
  9. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    Jan 26, 2015

    Oh I don't disagree with that point at all. I feel like 99% of problems in our education system lead in some way- small or large to poverty or to socioeconomic status.

    "We have created, by our underfunding and our denial of the realities of poverty, a system in which being a good teacher is nearly impossible, in which even good teachers—probably especially good teachers—feel terrible a lot of the time"

    Read that quote in a Washington Post article by Valerie Strauss recently. It really stood out to me- especially the bolded part.
     
  10. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    Jan 26, 2015

    I don't think government aid should be abolished completely, but teacherintexas does have some very valid points. I see generational poverty in the school I work in- people who receive government aid but still don't have to go without the extras like designer clothing, electronic, etc. etc. Many times those in situational poverty go without this. It's become a cultural thing, something engrained in people's minds. There would be nothing wrong with making the able bodied work a little bit harder for their government aid. I sure as heck work really hard for my salary- which includes my income tax that is in turn used in part for their government aid.
     
  11. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jan 26, 2015

    You are saying that education system problems cause poverty?
     
  12. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    Jan 26, 2015

    They expect us, the teachers and school system to feed their kids, buy and/or provide their school supplies ~ paper, pencil pens, notebooks etc etc.......and if "we" don't give it to them then they complain.

    How do you come to school on EXAM day with nothing to write with when the only thing going on that day was exams?????

    I agree something needs to be attached to those checks to avoid this generational poverty....they keep breeding uneducated generations.....the system was not set up to take care of people for long periods of time....it was supposed to be temporary.

    You have single parents on assistance with high school kids having babies who are now on assistance and it goes on and on.
     
  13. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jan 26, 2015

    Interesting site outlining the history of school lunches:
    http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodschools.html

    Also:
    http://www.ask.com/wiki/National_School_Lunch_Act?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com
     
  14. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Jan 26, 2015

    You sound like you have a huge empathy deficit.
     
  15. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    Jan 27, 2015

    I agree that it is a difficult job. I must say that I find it extremely astonishing that in all the conversations around "fixing education" there is almost no discussion around improving leadership within the system. This model is inverted and counter intuitive to my experience outside the educational field. elsewhere, any strategies to improve efficiency,productivity,quality or any other measurement all started at the top. Organizations do not improve from the bottom up.

    In short, effective leadership would solve (or minimize) all the discussion about "bad teachers".
     
  16. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    Jan 27, 2015

    There are responsible people living in poverty because of circumstances beyond their control, and they are doing the best they can. Then there is poverty in which the people involved bring about the circumstances described in Newark, and that is present in other places. There is also poverty that comes about from laziness and freeloading. The thing that hurts us the most is the lack of responsibility and respect.
     
  17. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    Jan 27, 2015

    Or common sense.
     
  18. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    Jan 27, 2015

    Neither......I just don't sugarcoat the issue.....Of course not everyone is like that but please lets not tip toe around the ones that are.

    There needs to be a real discussion and it will never happen if the discussions don't talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of it all and lead to possible solutions...you can't please everyone and we as a country seem to want to please everyone or not offend and in doing so we do nothing. :2cents:
     
  19. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    Jan 27, 2015

    Well said!

    What happened to the time when parents wanted their kids to have or do more than they were able to do be it a better job, earn more money, own a home, get an education etc etc etc?
     
  20. greendream

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    Jan 27, 2015

    And empathy is absolutely worthless in helping break the cycle of generational poverty.
     
  21. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Jan 27, 2015

    I believe that the appearance of laziness and freeloading in generational poverty isn't necessarily the person's innate desire to be lazy and take but a helplessness to really internalize how to get out of the situation (when tools are provided) and a belief it is possible. Since the support is there and will remain, it becomes easier to give in to the beliefs and the beliefs people are surrounded by then to break the norm, especially when all around you will give you a hard time because it is their way of making themselves feel better about the fact they don't have the confidence or understanding to make the change.

    The other problem is that getting jobs often means working hard for the same or less than what you got for free. The pride of working was never developed. There is no shame of having to be supported by the government when you are healthy and capable of work. Therefore, it creates more incentive to not work and great ways to insult those who believe they want to work for their living. Our society has gone so far to take the shame out of everything.

    So, when people say removing the supports, I believe they see it as a way to force people out of their comfort zone. The big problem with removing the supports abruptly or on a time limit without other supports designed to move them to an unsupported life, you get chaos and crime because some people will turn to crime. Then add in mental illness and illiteracy or low intelligence, you have a recipe for chaos.

    That is why the welfare to work program was seeing benefits of getting people off of welfare. It provided the incentive (benefits will be lost) and a method to help. However, it still did not support other causes of poverty such as mental illness, addiction, etc and the communities did not have enough local jobs to support the level of work needed. Many businesses would not open shop in the crime ridden, generational welfare heavy areas.
     
  22. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    Jan 27, 2015

    It may even be worse...it may contribute or enable.
     
  23. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Jan 27, 2015

    To say that impoverished people like to be poor absolves a person from any responsibility to improve society.
     
  24. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Jan 27, 2015

    You have to be able to have true empathy and compassion to understand why some people can't be as accomplished as you are and thus they stay stuck in poverty.

    You did mention that your parents were supportive. Have you ever stopped ot think about all the kids who dont have supportive parents? A supportive parent can make all the difference in the world. Some kids have no one, absolutely not a single soul, including teachers, to look out for them and believe in them.
     
  25. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Have you tried having empathy to see the huge difference it could make in a child's life? It's absolutely important, and should be a natural asset that a teacher would have empathy and believe in his/her own students; and see them as human, whole people-with complex emotions, fears, talents, gifts, dreams, weaknesses and so on....Rather than seeing them as yet another kid who will continue the generational poverty cycle.
     
  26. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Great post. Welfare in my state is about $180 a month if a person has one child. It goes up a few bucks per child. So that old myth of lazy people leeching off the system, should just die already.

    Welfare recipents are also required to receive job training (they usually dont have the gas, transportation or money to do so), but they do it. So they must take hours a day and receive "job training" and if they dont already, they must get their GED, and face tons of other red tape and stipulations, for less than $200 a month. Unless they are comfortable with living in the projects, they wont be able to do anything on that amount of money.

    Futhermore, many just end up working poverty level jobs as you stated. Salaries need to be higher.
     
  27. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    That right there......but many feel that serbvice jobs like McDonalds should not raise the minimum wage and that those jobs were not menat to support you or provide a living wage....so where do those on "welfare" go to get a job that pays enough to live off of if that is all that their community offers......we must remember not everyone lives in areas that offer many job choices and opportunities.....and with decent pay.
     
  28. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    Jan 28, 2015

    I know people who had to support themselves on fast food jobs and it really stinks but they each had 2 or more jobs so they actually had a nice apartment and decent food. They were doing fine until they had 2 kids. If you can't afford kids don't have them. I felt bad for these friends of mine but all of their troubles were brought on by themselves not society.
     
  29. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    I'm assuming then that you're in favor of easy and affordable access to safe and effective methods of birth control, right?

    Also, I do not understand why someone should need to work 2 or 3 jobs to afford housing, food, and clothing. Those are basic necessities, and if you are working a full-time job, no matter what the job, you should make enough to pay for those things. Time was, back when women were expected to stay home, that working full time you would expect to feed, clothe, and house not only yourself, but also your family.
     
  30. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    It's unfortunate if people can't get affordable birth control but adults really need to take responsibility for themselves. I saw my friends buy cigarettes every week so I'm assuming if they had money for that they could have gotten some form of birth control with that money if they really wanted to.
     
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