Undocumented students

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    Mar 6, 2017

    Me too. A friend of mine married someone from a different country and it took a long time for him to get all the legal stuff straightened out to become a citizen. He didn't complain about it though just went through what they required.

    Sorry, but that image of people pulling kids out of their desks and teachers holding on to them? Um, no. I won't be doing that.
     
  2. 3Sons

    3Sons Connoisseur

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    Mar 6, 2017

    Absolutely true. It certainly won't happen this way. I think it's also a bit unlikely that students will be called down to the office never to be heard from again (it's possible, but I suspect that's not the way they'd do it).

    If schools are involved, the most likely first step would be to request home address information from the school. The agencies don't even need a warrant for this.

    At least one school-related pickup has occurred, though it was of a parent who had just dropped one daughter of at school and was going to drop off the second. I don't think it's necessarily clear whether the school provided (or was asked for) any information to help. It's a little controversial because they picked up the dad while one daughter was in the car, which I imagine is a little traumatic, and because they'd identified him as one of the "bad people" that are targeted as a priority based on a ten year old DUI charge ( which, depending on the circumstances, could have represented some pretty benign behavior -- like sitting in a parked car with the keys next to him).

    Has anyone had students arrested at school for something that didn't happen at school? If so, how was it done? That's the most likely scenario assuming immigration wanted to pick up a student at school.
     
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  3. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Only after being called out by the public and the courts. They knew what they wrote into that executive order....didn't they.....
     
  4. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Great points to consider. I'd start off by going back to my original point, which is that there are certainly very valid things to consider from multiple angles, and you've brought several of them up.

    So, in terms of my personal responses: In terms of have a quote vs. kicking people out, I'd agree - those are different. I would say, though, that creating de facto amnesty by not enforcing immigration policies after you've entered the country is part of the actual immigration policy in that it's part of the overall context of how people come to decide to move here and stay here. So, I'd agree that they're different, but I'd also say that they're related.

    In terms of refugees, I'm with you. I think (responsibly) accepting refugees from war-torn parts of the world is just a basic part of being a good global citizen.

    With the "population increasing at an unsustainable level," I think there are so many angles to consider. First, it's a specific population within certain communities that's increasing rapidly - not just total number divided by total square foot. A lot of the people coming from other countries illegally are living in poverty and in need of resources. While many appear vastly more hardworking than I'll ever be, many don't end up taking jobs in which their personal tax contributions cover the community costs of everything from infrastructure to education. Also, as someone who has primarily worked in or with Title I schools for a while now, we have so few resources and so many challenges in public education already - is our system really at the point of accepting a huge influx of more kids with needs? Maybe we are - sometimes we forget how lucky we are in the US, and I'm not one of those people that argues that our pubic schools are awful and broken. Maybe we do have the capacity, but again - if you've ever worked in one of these schools and felt the heavy burden of poverty on our education system, can you really say that we've "figured it out" and are ready for more?

    Hopefully my responses indicate, again, that I'm not approaching this from one angle. My main point is that we can't oversimplify everything and give a simple "yes or no" to immigration, and we can't let a president or an executive order polarize the conversation and dictate how we think about things beyond our thoughts on that particular issue.
     
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  5. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Mar 6, 2017

    Agreed - this is ridiculous.
     
  6. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Mar 6, 2017

    Yep - a really important point to consider. One counter-argument would be that we aren't out of money, we just aren't willing to pay enough in taxes to fund what we need. But, this brings us back to the property issue - should those with resources to pay taxes pay increasingly higher taxes to support free education for illegal immigrants? I think you could make a case for either, but it's not a slam dunk argument for "yes."

    With the issue of millions having given up looking work, I'd say that - to some degree - people are being a bit too picky and narrow in their thinking. There are jobs available, but many people either 1) don't want them; 2) aren't willing to move to where those jobs are; or 3) don't want to purse the extra training to be qualified for those jobs. Our economy is obviously undergoing a massive shift from industrial to service to technology, and many just haven't caught up, including how we educate people (different topic & thread, which I think is already out there).

    In short, I'm not completely sure we're out of money and jobs in the US, but it's also not like we have tons of (debt free) cash lying around ready to pay for world citizens to have a better life here. It would need to come from somewhere, and we'd have to make some serious choices about how we structure our money in the US.
     
  7. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Mar 6, 2017

    You make some good points, but knowing what I know is that when an industry leaves an area the training isn't always available or close. That often makes it not possible or not feasible.

    Regarding property taxes even renters pay them. It is built into the cost of rent. The only ones who don't pay them are those getting government assistance for rent.

    When you talk about Americans not wanting to do jobs much has to do with the impact of illegal immigration. Wages are depressed due to the abuse of the person's statud in many fields and the workplaces are often unfriendly to Americans. My opinion is based on personal experience of those know. So citizens don't want to work for the depressed wages and be in an unfriendly environment.
     
  8. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I agreed it was wrong.
     
  9. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I knew that. The admin did NOT agree it was wrong, and it was only changed after people stood against it. They challenged what the powers thought should not have been questioned. Exactly what Ceasar was refferring to with slavery and the holocaust.
     
  10. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    The suit was about a very small part of the executive order. Not at all comparable to the holocaust. Legally the president can suspend entrance. The big problem came when people were already in transit. Also it made exceptions for many different types of visas.
    Again, not holocaust level at all.
     
  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Back at ya - I think these are valid points. I'd expand the conversation about jobs by saying that we're both probably tapping into some macro-level economic & social reasons for unemployment. For example, automation & tech progress have caused a number of jobs to either go away or be in less demand by employers, with wages dropping. Immigration isn't solely to blame, but I'm not arguing it's not a part.
     
  12. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    A very small part that made such a huge difference that it stopped the entire ban as written dead in its tracks.

    It does not need to be holocaust level to take a stand against something.
     
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  13. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    He also had an outstanding deportation order from 2014 and the agents arrested him 6 blocks from the school, intentionally waiting to pull him over. Yes, it was unfortunate the daughter was still in the car but the agents tried to do it in the least invasive way possible short of ignoring the order.
     
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  14. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Well, not dead in its tracks. ... it was paused and re-written for better clarification.
     
  15. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Mar 6, 2017

    Of course it isn't solely to blame. It is a significant one and one that is caused by violating the law.
     
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