Undocumented students

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Alleging that Caesar's posts amount to claiming that slavery and Holocaust and undocumented immigration are exactly equivalent is like arguing that, because sometimes each can be treated with antibiotics, ulcers are exactly equivalent to sinus infections.

    Clearly the topic has struck a nerve. It's possible to convey discomfort and disagreement without engaging in shutdown tactics.
     
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  2. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    So, if we're talking about ICE coming to schools, we're talking about immigrants who were children. These children likely did not choose to come to this country illegally. They may not even know that they do not have legal status. I don't think it's fair to say that they are at fault in any way. ICE has rounded up several Dreamers, who previously had been given some amount of protection. Even my students who are here on legal education visas and have to return to Mexico annually are scared that next time they go home to renew their visa they will not be allowed back in. These children are not criminals!
     
  3. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    The ones with the visas aren't criminals but they don't have the right to continually have visas renewed. The other ones were placed in illegal status bring their parents. So the family did choose even though the child may not have chosen. They are in violation of the law.

    Using the rationale that we shouldn't do anything that will make children's life difficult because of the actions of parents means that parents should never be incarcerated because the child's life will be upended and may have to be taken by the state other given to a relative they don't know. This can happen even if parent treated the child well but their choice put the child in a bad situation.
     
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  4. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    My question is how do we, as educators, put our (going by this thread, very strong and often divided) feelings aside and focus on the needs of the students in our classrooms? If they are removed due to their immigration status, that is one issue. However, I want to focus on the needs of students while they are with us but possibly suffering on an emotional level due to circumstances beyond their control.
     
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  5. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    And the children?
     
  6. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Teaching Tolerance http://www.tolerance.org/blog/standing-undocumented
    “Every child in the United States has the right to an education, no matter their citizenship status.”
    Standing Up for the Undocumented
    Submitted by Lisa Applegate on March 3, 2017

    While undocumented students and their families have always lived with the daily fear of deportation, the day Donald Trump was elected president marked a point at which many families began vocalizing their fears within the safety of school walls. Parents are seeking reassurance that their children’s records won’t be released to immigration officials; students are expressing worry that their parents or other family members will be deported before they get home from school.

    In the past month, anxiety over deportations significantly increased as nearly 700 undocumented immigrants were arrested during targeted raids in at least six states. Then, last week, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security released new guidelines that broadened the types of undocumented immigrants who can be detained beyond those who have committed “serious crimes.” The guidelines also provided immigration officials greater discretion over whom to pursue.

    Immigrant-rights advocates say that such broad guidelines will tear otherwise law-abiding families apart. The number of undocumented immigrants who have lived in the United States for more than a decade has been steadily increasing, as overall numbers of those who come here without papers have declined. The result is more undocumented immigrants who have started families, built lives and sent their children to school in the United States.

    Roughly 50 million students were enrolled in U.S. public elementary and secondary schools in 2012; seven percent of those students had at least one undocumented parent. As The Atlantic succinctly put it in 2016, “immigration policy is education policy.”

    Students are being kept home from school due to deportation fears. Those who do attend bring physical and emotional stress with them into classrooms and may have difficulty focusing on academics. Teachers are spending parent-teacher conferences counseling families on how to prepare for possible deportation, not discussing their children’s school performance.

    Teachers are often the first resource for families in need because they have established a trusting relationship. There are resources available for teachers when counseling undocumented families, including this one from the National Immigration Law Center. If you haven’t seen the Teaching Tolerance post on what to say to students regarding immigration orders, read it here.

    In an attempt to ease concerns from families, as well as provide clear direction for teachers and staff, some school districts are taking a public stand to protect and educate students who may be undocumented. A few examples:

    • Chicago Public Schools’ Chief Education Officer Janice Jackson advised principals not to let immigration officials into schools without criminal warrants. Nearby Evanston School District 202’s school board passed a “safe haven” resolution that, among other directives, prohibits employees, contractors or volunteers from inquiring about students’ immigration statuses or releasing such information to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) without a court order to do so.
    • The Denver Public Schools Board of Education passed a resolution that promised schools would not share information about students unless required by law, and would fight to protect students’ legal rights.
    • Sacramento City Unified School District, along with several other California districts, adopted a “safe haven” policy that provides a range of inclusive efforts, from promoting tolerance over hate speech to offering focused staff development opportunities.
    It’s important to note that ICE continues to define schools as “sensitive locations” and therefore will avoid engaging in “enforcement actions” on school property. School districts that promise to keep ICE away from schools and student records are providing more of a symbolic—but still important—way to show solidarity with undocumented families.

    Even schools under the safe haven banner are trying to understand what exactly that designation means for their particular students. Some schools are partnering with local governments and nonprofit organizations to provide families with information about their legal rights. Schools are also developing rapid-response networks that can help children whose family members have been detained and also develop procedures in case emergency contacts can’t be reached. Some schools are considering connecting families directly to legal representation.

    Schools are uniquely qualified to not only provide essential support for students from undocumented families, but also to remind others about the importance of being inclusive, equitable and respectful. After all, every child in the United States has the right to an education, no matter their citizenship status.
     
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  7. 2ndTimeAround

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    The visualization of an agent busting into a classroom and violently ripping a child away from his desk, while his teacher desperately fights to hold on to the student, is overly dramatic. Teachers are not going to be in this position. If federal agents even go to a school looking for students, they'd go through the office first. How else would they even know the grade and classroom? Then, if administration cooperates, as they should, office staff would retrieve the child and take him to the office. No one in the classroom would even know.
     
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  8. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Yeah, the office comes and gets a student, and then nobody from the school ever sees that child again. That will be much better imagery for the other students in class.
     
  9. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    What are the actual numbers for pulling undocumented students out of classrooms?
     
  10. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    I think the concern isn't over how many undocumented students have been pulled out of classrooms, but how many might be due to the current change in government. Living in Arizona, I have been amazed and saddened to see the places where children and families have been pulled out. Even religious gatherings aren't immune to families being pulled out.

    Laws have often been used as an excuse to do things that are unkind. Obeying of the law was often used an excuse for segregation in many southern states, instead of taking a look at whether that is the morally right and humane thing to do. The immigration issue should look at more than the law, but at what is the best, humane, and moral thing to do in the treatment of children and families.
     
  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Like with many things, I think this issue is best thought of from different angles, in different contexts.

    For example, with morality, if you go with Kohlberg's stages of moral reasoning, here are different ways to interpret the morality of the situation:

    Stage 4 (Rules/Laws): Enforcing illegal immigration is moral because it violates a law or rule

    Stage 5 (Social Contract): In our global society, most have historically agreed to the concept of private property/territory rights (even if not possessed by an individual, but rather a community). In other words, simply because I want to live somewhere doesn't mean I can just go do it. This would, and does, cause chos.

    Stage 6 (Universal moral principle): Children who made no choice in the matter shouldn't be uprooted from their lives and futures because someone else (i.e., a parent) made a decision.

    Note: I'm not saying I either 1) agree with the above, or 2) that those are the only ways of thinking about the issue in those stages of moral development. My point is simply that, depending on the angle you take, we could come up with different conclusions.

    Another angle/context: Unit of analysis. If we look at the issue from the perspective of a society, we may look at the ramifications of not enforcing border policy, the economic implications of 10 million undocumented immigrants, etc. If we look at the issue from the perspective of a family, we might think about horrid living conditions in the homeland, and fully empathize with a family's decision to chance immigration laws for a better life in the US.

    Again, we can come up with different perspectives depending on how we think about it.

    Finally, and this is a general political point (relevant to education), our politics are broken in our country because so many are utterly unable to consider the validity of what the "other side" may be saying. So rarely is one person completely wrong, and the other completely right.

    With immigration, it's almost silly for someone to make an argument that those wanting to enforce immigration policies are morally wrong, similar to Nazi's or slave owners. There are simple, basic moral justifications for the enforcement of borders (see above for a start). There are many, many people who believe in borders, but who are not "protectionist," racist, or against immigration. On the other hand, it's naive for someone to maintain a protectionist policy that uses convenient characterizations of illegal immigrants as rapists and murders to argue that illegal immigration is a bigger problem than it may be.

    In short, hunkering down in our extremist camps in which we liken those who aren't fully in agreement with us as morally wrong is going to lead us.....absolutely no where. We won't ever be able to develop policies that stick beyond an administration because as soon as one party is out, we throw out everything with it, and roll in a new set of executive orders, only to themselves be thrown out in 4-8 more years.

    Let's start having conversations with a mutual goal of consensus rather than "victory over the opposition." Let's start to understand the feelings that lead people to think and vote in certain ways, rather than calling those voters names and saying we're "scared of them." Let's attempt to reconcile the different ways we view the world, even if we have to dig deep. Let's passionately advocate for win-win solutions in which we build in things the other side wants because we understand that, even though we may not agree with it, they're entitled to opinions too.

    Racism & hatred should have no place it politics, and should not be met with concessions. However, in almost every issue on the table, there are legitimate, moral, & rationale responses that both sides bring to the table. Until we understand that, our current state of society is what we're going to have.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    All I know is that if I lived in poverty in a city controlled by drug cartels or in a place where children's hospitals were being bombed left and right, I might consider packing up my family and running away, illegally, to a safer place. Bonus points if that place has historically accepted the, oh, I don't know, tempest-tossed, homeless, and/or the huddled masses yearning to be free. Have the rest of you not seen the pictures of all the dead children whose bodies washed up on shore after the boats they were fleeing in sank? Is that something you want for your family? Silly or not, it is utterly unconscionable to me that we as a country are actively preventing these people from coming here where they can have a chance at life.
     
  13. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Very much agreed, and I think you're seeing it from the perspective of a family fleeing terror. On the other hand, there are billions of people in the world, a lot of them living in pretty bad conditions. There isn't room in the US for all of them, simple math. So, yes - when I've personally interacted with immigrant families coming from those conditions, I totally empathize, and would totally do the same thing myself. But thinking about it from a macro-level policy perspective, it's not a sustainable, realistic, or long-term fix to just let anyone struggling find a new home in the US, as much as we'd like to. We have to have some way of deciding when, how many, what conditions, etc. That's the point of having an immigration policy and borders - not because we don't want immigration and don't want to be a safe haven, but because we need to do so responsibly.

    And as a side note, I never really hear people mention this: Just like people, countries can have different stages of development. What's appropriate for a country when it's 20 years old may not be appropriate when it's 300 years old. In other words, I don't see it as a valid argument to say that we had a particular immigration policy in 1794, so we should have the same one now. Things grow, develop, and change - I think we need to be responsible to our history and values as a country, but update our policies for who we are today. This doesn't mean "no immigration" or "we're done accepting you," but it does mean it does mean that Ellis Island can't continue forever.
     
  14. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    EdEd, that is a well thought out and logical response. I agree, if done to an extreme that could create problems. The reality is that it is not being done to an extreme. There is a difference between having a well thought out quota and kicking out families who have come here (whether illegal or legal). There is a difference between a well thought out quota (done for many decades now) and one that says no one may come into the country even refugees who are dying. Also, many refugees that come to the US don't want to stay forever. They are escaping a bad situation and need safety until the dangerous situation leaves. Is the population of the US increasing so fast that it is unsustainable? That is a good question. The population of the US is growing at a rate of less than 1% a year (0.7% is the last figure on record from July 2015 to July 2016). Not exactly a situation where "there is no more room left in the inn".
     
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  15. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    And let's not forget that we are denying re-entry to people who have had valid, legal visas for decades. And people are being asked (required) to show proof of citizenship before being allowed to got off domestic flights. This is not normal or okay.
     
  16. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Seems the customs agent was looking for a specific passenger who was ordered deported but did not comply.

    Also the detaining of legal visa holders was wrong and is being corrected.
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Tin room left st the inn is really opinion. Being trillions in debt and so many who have given up looking for work, it is my opinion that open borders is a really bad idea.

    I do find it interesting that so msny complain about school districts not having funding yet we spend so much extra money on special services for illegal immigrants. Our school system is so strained by the added costs that elderly can no longer afford the ever increasing taxes to pay for the added services. So I do see there being no more room at the inn when the influx has caused our own citizens to fold under the added costs.
     
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  18. Backroads

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    My religion and its official views help me lean toward a lot of empathy and leniency on immigration, plus I think immigration is generally a good thing.

    But I do know a huge number of folks who immigtated legally and they do have a bitterness against those here illegally.
     
  19. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I'm all for legal immigration. I do believe a specific number of refugees should be allowed from some countries as long as they can be properly vetted.
     
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  20. bros

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    Our vetting process is already one of the strictest in the world for refugees - and it has worked for years without issue. It takes around 18 months for someone to be vetted.
     
  21. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Maven

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    Me too. A friend of mine married someone from a different country and it took a long time for him to get all the legal stuff straightened out to become a citizen. He didn't complain about it though just went through what they required.

    Sorry, but that image of people pulling kids out of their desks and teachers holding on to them? Um, no. I won't be doing that.
     
  22. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Absolutely true. It certainly won't happen this way. I think it's also a bit unlikely that students will be called down to the office never to be heard from again (it's possible, but I suspect that's not the way they'd do it).

    If schools are involved, the most likely first step would be to request home address information from the school. The agencies don't even need a warrant for this.

    At least one school-related pickup has occurred, though it was of a parent who had just dropped one daughter of at school and was going to drop off the second. I don't think it's necessarily clear whether the school provided (or was asked for) any information to help. It's a little controversial because they picked up the dad while one daughter was in the car, which I imagine is a little traumatic, and because they'd identified him as one of the "bad people" that are targeted as a priority based on a ten year old DUI charge ( which, depending on the circumstances, could have represented some pretty benign behavior -- like sitting in a parked car with the keys next to him).

    Has anyone had students arrested at school for something that didn't happen at school? If so, how was it done? That's the most likely scenario assuming immigration wanted to pick up a student at school.
     
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  23. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Only after being called out by the public and the courts. They knew what they wrote into that executive order....didn't they.....
     
  24. EdEd

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    Great points to consider. I'd start off by going back to my original point, which is that there are certainly very valid things to consider from multiple angles, and you've brought several of them up.

    So, in terms of my personal responses: In terms of have a quote vs. kicking people out, I'd agree - those are different. I would say, though, that creating de facto amnesty by not enforcing immigration policies after you've entered the country is part of the actual immigration policy in that it's part of the overall context of how people come to decide to move here and stay here. So, I'd agree that they're different, but I'd also say that they're related.

    In terms of refugees, I'm with you. I think (responsibly) accepting refugees from war-torn parts of the world is just a basic part of being a good global citizen.

    With the "population increasing at an unsustainable level," I think there are so many angles to consider. First, it's a specific population within certain communities that's increasing rapidly - not just total number divided by total square foot. A lot of the people coming from other countries illegally are living in poverty and in need of resources. While many appear vastly more hardworking than I'll ever be, many don't end up taking jobs in which their personal tax contributions cover the community costs of everything from infrastructure to education. Also, as someone who has primarily worked in or with Title I schools for a while now, we have so few resources and so many challenges in public education already - is our system really at the point of accepting a huge influx of more kids with needs? Maybe we are - sometimes we forget how lucky we are in the US, and I'm not one of those people that argues that our pubic schools are awful and broken. Maybe we do have the capacity, but again - if you've ever worked in one of these schools and felt the heavy burden of poverty on our education system, can you really say that we've "figured it out" and are ready for more?

    Hopefully my responses indicate, again, that I'm not approaching this from one angle. My main point is that we can't oversimplify everything and give a simple "yes or no" to immigration, and we can't let a president or an executive order polarize the conversation and dictate how we think about things beyond our thoughts on that particular issue.
     
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  25. EdEd

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    Agreed - this is ridiculous.
     
  26. EdEd

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    Yep - a really important point to consider. One counter-argument would be that we aren't out of money, we just aren't willing to pay enough in taxes to fund what we need. But, this brings us back to the property issue - should those with resources to pay taxes pay increasingly higher taxes to support free education for illegal immigrants? I think you could make a case for either, but it's not a slam dunk argument for "yes."

    With the issue of millions having given up looking work, I'd say that - to some degree - people are being a bit too picky and narrow in their thinking. There are jobs available, but many people either 1) don't want them; 2) aren't willing to move to where those jobs are; or 3) don't want to purse the extra training to be qualified for those jobs. Our economy is obviously undergoing a massive shift from industrial to service to technology, and many just haven't caught up, including how we educate people (different topic & thread, which I think is already out there).

    In short, I'm not completely sure we're out of money and jobs in the US, but it's also not like we have tons of (debt free) cash lying around ready to pay for world citizens to have a better life here. It would need to come from somewhere, and we'd have to make some serious choices about how we structure our money in the US.
     
  27. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    You make some good points, but knowing what I know is that when an industry leaves an area the training isn't always available or close. That often makes it not possible or not feasible.

    Regarding property taxes even renters pay them. It is built into the cost of rent. The only ones who don't pay them are those getting government assistance for rent.

    When you talk about Americans not wanting to do jobs much has to do with the impact of illegal immigration. Wages are depressed due to the abuse of the person's statud in many fields and the workplaces are often unfriendly to Americans. My opinion is based on personal experience of those know. So citizens don't want to work for the depressed wages and be in an unfriendly environment.
     
  28. a2z

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    I agreed it was wrong.
     
  29. Pashtun

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    I knew that. The admin did NOT agree it was wrong, and it was only changed after people stood against it. They challenged what the powers thought should not have been questioned. Exactly what Ceasar was refferring to with slavery and the holocaust.
     
  30. a2z

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    The suit was about a very small part of the executive order. Not at all comparable to the holocaust. Legally the president can suspend entrance. The big problem came when people were already in transit. Also it made exceptions for many different types of visas.
    Again, not holocaust level at all.
     
  31. EdEd

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    Back at ya - I think these are valid points. I'd expand the conversation about jobs by saying that we're both probably tapping into some macro-level economic & social reasons for unemployment. For example, automation & tech progress have caused a number of jobs to either go away or be in less demand by employers, with wages dropping. Immigration isn't solely to blame, but I'm not arguing it's not a part.
     
  32. Pashtun

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    A very small part that made such a huge difference that it stopped the entire ban as written dead in its tracks.

    It does not need to be holocaust level to take a stand against something.
     
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  33. Rockguykev

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    He also had an outstanding deportation order from 2014 and the agents arrested him 6 blocks from the school, intentionally waiting to pull him over. Yes, it was unfortunate the daughter was still in the car but the agents tried to do it in the least invasive way possible short of ignoring the order.
     
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  34. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Well, not dead in its tracks. ... it was paused and re-written for better clarification.
     
  35. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Of course it isn't solely to blame. It is a significant one and one that is caused by violating the law.
     
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  36. Pashtun

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    Yes, dead in its tracks, as in not fought in the courts,....rewritten. As in, when the admin tried to tell the courts to "ignore" the part about the visas and green cards, the court responded with...uhm, this is not how it works, you have to change it. NOT clarify, not better explain a misunderstood point, but remove the nonsense that they wanted in, but won't pass legal muster.
     
  37. gr3teacher

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    The Holocaust didn't become the Holocaust over night. It happened bit by bit, inch by inch, because people gradually accepted tiny little injustices that became a tiny bit worse. I don't think anybody considers anything that has happened in recent US history to be truly Holocaust level, but I for one would rather stand up against 1933 Germany-level injustices now rather than wait to see if history unfolds.
     
  38. a2z

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    Well, I happen to believe it is an injustice to the citizens of our country to allow violators to our immigration policies to go unchecked.
     
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  39. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Mar 7, 2017

    I know I feel safer and more secure in my country knowing that 2 10 year old violators from my school have been forcefully removed from the only country they have conscious memories of.
     
  40. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Mar 7, 2017

    Re-read this post this morning and decided to delete it - not being passive aggressive, just realized it could do more harm than good. Sorry folks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
    Upsadaisy likes this.

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