To disclose or not to disclose. That is the question.

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by SF_Giants66, Mar 1, 2014.

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  1. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    I am probably gonna start applying for teaching jobs sometime in about a year or more. The jobs ask if you have ever been fired or asked to leave a job. As of now, the only times were once when I was 22 (4.25 years ago) and when I was 18 (8 years ago). They will have been about 5.5 and 10 years ago and I've held down two long term jobs since then without any problem. One was for 16 months, and I only left because my current job that I've been at for about 2 years and 4 months pays much better and is closer to my college.

    They were basically for social skills, anger, and problems dealing with co-workers. One was prior to being diagnosed with depression, and in about another month I am going to be evaluated for autism and obsessive compulsive disorder.

    Here is the part that will confuse most people. If I don't tell them, they will never find out. I've tried running references on my past jobs before through other companies, and the only thing they were able to get from them were dates of employment, and neither of them are jobs I'm going to use on my resume anyhow.

    However, if they ask me and I say now, part of my obsessive compulsive disorder that obsesses over being honest to a fault will eat away and me thinking I got the job on false pretenses. I've actually sometimes have been so honest with people, that I made them hate me, or ended up telling them more detail than they wanted to know. I simply sometimes feel compelled to tell people the exact truth even if it infuriates them, and earlier last year, there were some things I'm ashamed of in my past that I've only told 3 people that I know and probably never will tell anyone else, that I wanted to commit suicide over because I felt like not telling people every shameful thing I've ever done the past made me a horrible person that deserved death.


    Basically, when they ask this, do they really wanna know what jobs you've been fired for that were a long time ago and totally unrelated to teaching, or do they just want to know what jobs on your resume you have been fired for? If I am in casual conversation or trying to counsel a student or something and mention I've made mistakes that I've lost jobs for a long time ago, can they use that against me saying I lied on my application? Someone suggested leaving it blank and explaining later, but the electronic applications in this district don't allow the application to be submitted that way.
     
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  3. comaba

    comaba Cohort

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    As a newly credentialed teacher, no one is going to ask you if you've ever been fired from a job.

    As for determining that you lied on your application several years down the road, that's unlikely. However, I can't imagine a scenario in which it would make any sense to disclose to a student that you'd been fired from jobs.
     
  4. ready2learn

    ready2learn Comrade

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    I think they are looking for if you have ever been fired from or released from a teaching job.
     
  5. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    It's a standard question on most apps around here.
     
  6. comaba

    comaba Cohort

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    Sorry I wasn't clear. No one is going to ask a newly credentialed teacher during the interview if he has ever been fired from a job. (IMO)

    It's a standard question on apps around here too. I just don't see it coming up in an interview.
     
  7. SF_Giants66

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    All the applications ask it. I kind of think it is pretty forward to be honest. They ask if you ever quit a job to avoid being fired to. Who in the right mind would ever admit to something like that?

    As for disclosing to a student. I wasn't saying that I intend to. It is just one of those hypothetical things that I worry about whether or not you'd get fired it if slipped out and would they go back and check your application to make sure you noted it.
     
  8. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    My applications specified education-related positions. I don't think most people are interested if someone got fired from Burger King at sixteen for being late too many times. Could be wrong, though...
     
  9. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    I'd only disclose it if you include it on your résumé.
     
  10. comaba

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    I'm pretty sure the issue of including it on the application was discussed in one of your previous threads. Wasn't the consensus that you should not include those jobs on the online app?

    Let's not rehash that issue. As far as interviews go, that shouldn't be a problem.
     
  11. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    I don't think it'd come up because our area is so competitive if you said yes, they likely wouldn't interview you.

    I was never asked any questions that were already explicit on my app though.
     
  12. SF_Giants66

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    I think what you're referring to is someone else's thread where they asked if they should include being asked to quit a job when they were around 18 or so, and I commented on it. However, I never specifically asked about my situation.

    Most people are telling me it is my resume and application, so not to worry about it. However, technically it is still lying, and if I wouldn't have got the job if I told them that I was fired from a job at 18 and at 22, then basically I got the job from being an unethical liar. So that is why I'm asking. I don't like taking credit for anything I didn't earn.
     
  13. gr3teacher

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    Think of it this way... let's assume you had worked at McDonald's for a year when you were 18... and it went amazingly. You were employee of the month three times in a year. You left on fabulous terms with your boss, who promised you your old job the second you asked for it.

    Would you include THAT experience on your teaching resume? I really don't think so... and if you did include it, you'd get "dinged" for including such a non-educational experience from so long ago.
     
  14. SF_Giants66

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    To me it isn't about including it on my resume. None of those jobs were recent enough to put on my resume. It is about answering the question honestly.
     
  15. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    SF...you asked for advice but you seem intent on disregarding what has been offered by seasoned professionals. Good luck to you.
     
  16. JustMe

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    Doesn't seem that complicated to me... If you are "obsessed" with honesty and you feel you'd be lying by marking no, then mark yes and cross your fingers.
     
  17. SF_Giants66

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    I'm not disregarding anyone's advice, but I just think people are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about my resume, or whether or not it is a teacher related position. I'm asking do they want to know this or not. If it was you, would you consider yourself lying? So far I've actually yet to see any advice, just some straw man interpretations, which might be my fault for not communicating what I'm asking properly.
     
  18. MissScrimmage

    MissScrimmage Aficionado

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    It's really a non-issue. They will ask you why you left your last position. They don't care about the job you were fired from when you were 18. If they do actually ask you if you have every been fired, then answer the question in whatever way you need to so you can sleep at night with a clear conscience.
     
  19. SF_Giants66

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    Well they do give a box to explain, and this area I don't know if I'd call competitive. They tend to look for men for middle school in this area, and I'm the only male in my class year who is going for middle school mathematics and there are only about 2 colleges around here. Why I left my last job should be pretty obvious. I will be leaving in 10 months so I can do my clinical practice. The problem is the question is on the application, so would they consider me a liar if I said no or not? That is basically what I'm wanting to know, or is it simply none of their business to be asking about those jobs in the first place that I don't have to be honest?

    This is the first half of the battle for honesty for me. The 2nd half will be how to deal with honesty to parents about their child's academic performance.
     
  20. Math

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    To be honest, I think you should re-read everyone's post carefully. Your question was answered several times.
     
  21. SF_Giants66

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    I don't really understand implied communication or beating around the bush (I only understand that idiom because I've heard it on television so many times and finally made the connection). Keep in mind at the original post I said I'm going to be tested for Autism soon. So basically, if you're saying I need to read something very carefully to understand it, that is why I don't believe anyone answered my question.
     
  22. Math

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    "Basically, when they ask this, do they really wanna know what jobs you've been fired for that were a long time ago and totally unrelated to teaching, or do they just want to know what jobs on your resume you have been fired for?"

    No... because that experience you had is irrelevant at this point in your life. Plus, it has nothing to do with the field of education. Do not worry about that because they (The Employers) could care less about that okay?
     
  23. SF_Giants66

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    Okay, that answers the question directly. People may think they answered the question, but hints and similar scenarios with implied reasoning doesn't really give me a direct answer to what they are saying.

    So basically, you're saying that if they were to find out later that I was fired from jobs long ago at a fast food restaurant and a discount store, they wouldn't consider me a liar for not putting those on my application?
     
  24. Math

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    Correct, they would not consider you to be a liar.
     
  25. SF_Giants66

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    Okay, that is exactly what I wanted to know. Others may have implied that which I didn't get, but if you re-read, nobody said it in exact words.
     
  26. Math

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    Okay, well I apologize for telling you to re-read the posts. I am glad I could be of assistance.
     
  27. JustMe

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    I said on the first page that they are not likely interested in whether you were fired from Burger King as a teenager.

    The truth is, though, there isn't some official, sweeping answer to your question about whether an employer would find you to be a liar if you marked no when if fact you were fired as a teen. Most people wouldn't, but there could certainly be some who see it as black and white and fired is fired no matter when or why or in what industry.
     
  28. SF_Giants66

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    I know you said that, but I was saying the situation you were giving was hypothetical, and since I wasn't fired from Burger King as a teenager, didn't really give me the what I was looking for is all I was saying.

    Most people I've asked about this close to me pretty much are saying the same thing, that I don't really have to go all in detail about it, since they were both due to anger management issues which aren't the same as they were then, and since I take my jobs more seriously now, it is different. I was looking to get out of both those jobs at the time, but wasn't mature enough to do it correctly so it was pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy to get fired if you know what I mean. I wanted to be gone, but didn't have the guts to quit pretty much without having another job lined up.
     
  29. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    What someone else would do is impossible to say. It also depends on the reason someone is looking into your past work history. There is no guarantee that someone won't accuse you of being a liar because that person may interpret the question to mean all jobs. Unfortunately, some questions are open interpretation. So, without the exact wording being posted (and even then) if someone does find out you were fired 2 times in the somewhat recent past, they could, if they felt like it, use it against you.
     
  30. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    The odds of an administrator caring enough to look into whether you had any jobs other than what are on your resume are low. The odds of an administrator caring enough to look into whether you held any non-education jobs other than what are on your resume are extremely low. The odds of an administrator deciding to discipline you solely for not mentioning one of these jobs is lower than my odds of playing for the Red Sox this season.

    The odds of your application being tossed in the trash as soon as an administrator sees that you checked yes on the "were you fired?" line? Pretty good.
     
  31. teachinnola

    teachinnola Rookie

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    Agreed. I am sure they only care about being fired from a job that is relevant, and even then they would really only know if you were at any given job because you included it on your resume... which probably doesn't include irrelevant jobs.

    If it makes you feel better, tell them the truth; then you probably will have a tough time finding a job at all because you have "anger management issues."
     
  32. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    SF...I'd be more concerned about your inability to understand others and to read between the lines. No one here was being coy or beating around the bush. They were illustrating their points and answering your question as best as possible given the information you shared.
     
  33. SF_Giants66

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    I already told you. I don't understand non direct communication and reading between the lines. I can interpret what I think people might be saying, but more often then not I'm wrong.
     
  34. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    And that should be a bit of a concern.
     
  35. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    This. It's going to be difficult teaching if you only understand direct communication. You will have kids, parents, teachers, and admin who talk in hypotheticals. Just this week my P sent out an email about snow days that included hypothetical scenarios.
     
  36. SF_Giants66

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    It's not an all or nothing proposition. I just meant that given my question, I needed people answer it exactly and not give situations that didn't apply to me. He said fired at Burger King as a teenager, but didnt mention reason or if it would be the same if that hypothetical person was in his early 20s. That type of scenario has many holes. For something such as snow days, I would hope explicit instructions would be given should there be one if it is hypothetical.
     
  37. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Your expectations are not always reality. The snow days example was simply that...an example. You are saying its not all or nothing, but it seems you want it your way only, according to your expectations and understandings. It doesn't always work that way and that's going to make so much more than just getting advice on job application questions so difficult.
     
  38. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I was the Burger King person. So I'll be very specific to your situation and hope it helps in some way.

    • Getting fired from two hourly positions in your early twenties is a red flag to me.
    • Then, knowing generally why you were fired is an even bigger red flag.
    • That you feel you are past those issues is another concern, because it doesn't seem you have reached the point you need to be at socially in order to succeed as a teacher.
    • That you consider a job "long term" when it lasted a little over a year is also a flag. I realize you are in your twenties, so your time reference is a bit different from mine (although I'm thirty-one, so not too far from where you are), but I wouldn't consider that a long-term position.
    • That you need very direct answers to a question that really doesn't have a concrete answer as explained is also another concern.
    • I think gr3teacher said it best in her response a few posts up. But let's say you indicate you haven't been fired. Since the question is open to interpretation (and thus making a clear-cut answer very difficult from your fellow A to Z members), if you demonstrate some of the same interpersonal difficulties as a classroom teacher, an administrator just may dig (probably just chat with some people if you're in a small town like mine) until he or she discovers you were in fact fired from two positions rather recently and use it to terminate your contract.

    I am NOT intending to be harsh, but just want to be very direct as to how I see your situation.
     
  39. SF_Giants66

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    One of them was in my early 20s. The other one was 7 months after high school. The industry is more long term given I've been in hospitality management for over 3.5 years now. They won't find out about them because I really haven't any friends where I have lived the last 4 years, and these jobs were 800 miles of here.
     
  40. SF_Giants66

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    I also fail to see how 6 and 10 years ago were recent.
     
  41. gr3teacher

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    I agree with all this (except I'm a he:) ). To expand on my earlier point though... if you do a good job, administration would never go looking for this. If you end up having anger issues in the workplace, they may dig into your past... but I'd say it's more likely they would just non-renew your contract.

    Long story short, if you do your job well and don't raise any red flags, it will never come up. If you do your job poorly, but don't repeat past anger issues, it will never come up. If you do the same stuff that got you fired twice, it may end up coming up... but you'd probably deserve to be fired, regardless, and it would just be a nail in the coffin, not the reason for being fired.
     
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