Time out in or outside the classroom?

Discussion in 'Elementary Education' started by Pashtun, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Nov 1, 2015

    This is a quote from the smart classroom management by Michael Linsin.

    "For time-out to be effective, your students must feel like they’re missing something. When you send them out of your classroom this feeling is minimized because they’re unable to see what they’re no longer part of.

    Time-out, then, feels more like a break and less like a consequence.

    As long as your students enjoy your classroom—which is a core principle of Smart Classroom Management—being separated from their classmates while still in class is a strong disincentive to misbehave in the future."

    I am curious on thoughts from other teachers with regards to time-outs.

    How does this work in your room?
    How does this work during independent work? Independent reading? Whole class intruction..etc.
    Why do your students feel they are missing something "more" when behaviour happens during these types of activities? I understand group activities, games...etc., inquiring about more independent type work activities.
     
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  3. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    So in my class a student might need to not be part of a group cooperative activity and do the activity on his/her own instead. Or instead of sitting on the aspect with classmates, a student may have to sit at their own seat. students might miss some time outside at recess, but that tends to be for recess related issues...I believe consequences shoukd be related, reasonable and relevant....
     
  4. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    I do time out as described in the original post. They are expected to sit aside from the group but still listen and complete the assignment. I do not call on them to answer questions or participate in discussions, and if kids do partner work they work alone.
     
  5. otterpop

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    Also, I support in-room timeout. Kids who aren't focusing when sitting with the group usually listen better and work more diligently when in time out, so they still learn the content.
     
  6. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    My question though is how is this more effective than outside the classroom whith regards to more independent work or direct instruction. I personally see no consequence or improved reflection having to sit in a different location, yet continue with the same independent work type activity.

    I am not referring to a student being removed from a group activity, class game, socratic dialogue..etc.
     
  7. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    Time-out, then, feels more like a break and less like a consequence.

    This sentence from above describes it for me. It is a consequence but not a punishment. It is me saying, I have given you a chance to make good choices but it's still not happening. Now, I am going to make a choice for you to help you focus.

    It is consistently the same kids, but the testament that it works (for me) is that they do not continue to misbehave after they're moved usually. The talking or calling out stops, and we can all continue the lesson.

    Plus, if it were a similarly used consequence but kids were leaving the classroom regularly, that would be so much missed classtime. Yes, you can send work, but a lot of times the kid wasn't listening during instruction and they don't know how to do the work.
     
  8. Tasha

    Tasha Phenom

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    Love and logic uses a technique called recovery time, not a punishment, but an opportunity for the child to het himself back together in order to join the group. I use in/out of class timeout differently, depending on the behavior and child. Behavior techniques are to be used like a menu. What technique fits the child, circumstances, and your teacher personality/class management.
     
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  9. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    So it is not really changing the behaviour?

    According to Linsin, it is the joy of being part of the class that makes this time out, reflective and effective. The student does not want to be removed from class, yet I do not see how this really works when doing independent type activities.

    I personally find sending students to another classroom is more effective. Students do not always know when we are watching a short you tube clip, playing a "laugh track or sound track"..etc. Students do not want to leave the room, knoowing there is a possibility they may miss this, staying in the classroom, which I have tried, I have witnessed students enjoying these aspects of class, while just sitting at a different seat.

    Maybe I am missing something otterpop, maybe I am being mean? when I have done in class time-outs, they are isolated, so the side talking and focus does stop in the short term, but I don't see them reflecting. However, I have consistently seen, utter dissappointment in students having to leave the room, as in tears welling up, pleading not to leave. I have never seen this with in class isolation during independent type activities.

    I do agree, that some instruction is lost.
     
  10. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    In my lower elementary grade we do so much group and partner work that an in-class time-out is quite sufficient a consequence. I also have a kid who is simply calmer when he sits by himself--time put works a little differently for him.

    But, yes, classes where it's much independent work anyway... there isn't much to changing spots.
     
  11. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Agreed, this is making me think, as Tasha already stated, that the time-out location, depends on the situation and the student involved.
     
  12. otterpop

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    I don't think this is mean, but I do think that it could damage your relationship with the kid. This isn't necessarily bad, but a big part of Linsin's program (as I understand it) is relationship-based and showing them you care. Banishing them from the classroom doesn't really do that. It shows you don't want them around. Of course, this isn't really the message you intend to send, but nonetheless some of the difficult kids will read it this way.

    I know some teachers who put kids in "islands" where they're not around anyone else. I really only have one kid (out of my multiple classes) who is consistently in time out, but it's a kid that I should probably have just sitting on their own anyway.

    Also, time out is only the middle of my consequence chain, so if they don't behave there or after that, there is an additional repercussion.
     
  13. agdamity

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    During independent reading, my students get to spread out around the room, sit in comfy chairs or rolling chairs, move be a friend, etc. If they have time out during this time, they have to sit at their seat. Even the thought they might not get to spread out is enough to deter most of them from being off track.
     
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  14. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    I very rarely use out of class time-outs. In the event that I do use them, it's not so much because I think it will change their behavior as it is that I (and their classmates) need a ten minute break from whatever they are doing.
     
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  15. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I'm not sure "banishing them from the classroom" shows you don't care, not sure how you come to that conclusion. It certainly is not one of Linsin's reasons against it. However, I do think we are in agreement that time out out of the classroom is stronger than sitting in a different spot within the classroom.
     
  16. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I agree with this, anecdotally, I do see it having a stronger impact on future behavior than in class time-outs, especially during independent activities.

    I will add, that I also rarely use out of classroom timeouts as well.
     
  17. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I see this being effective. Do you have a similar routine for math practice, writing, comprehension work?
     
  18. Pashtun

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    Is it the note home to the parent or do you have a different 3rd consequence?
     
  19. 49erteacher

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    This is how I use out of the class time out. There is one student who causes disruption during the day. I will occasionally send him to one other class if I feel that we need a break.

    I use in class time out mostly when the students are on the carpet and we are doing something that is a unifying activity (number talks or a read aloud, for example).

    For independent work, I use other consequences.
     
  20. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Hi Pashtun. I didn't read all of the responses, but your OP is how it works in my class. In-class time-out has multiple benefits. Not only do they see what they're missing out on, but they don't miss instruction, and they're not bothering another teacher.

    If we're just doing independent work (in my class, though, even my independent work involves pausing and conferring with neighbors, now and then) then no, it may not seem like they're missing out on much. But they really are. For one thing, you're removing them from the cause of their disturbance, which is the desire to talk to other classmates. Two, they do miss the physical presence of being a part of their group. Three, they are not called upon or treated as a member of the class if they are sitting at the focus table. This further gives them a sense of separation (including the physical separation).

    Is it going to be the be-all-end-all of consequences that will finally change the behavior of that one kid? Probably not, but if you leave them there long enough (sometimes I leave them there the entire period) they'll eventually miss being a part of the class. I only let them back once they've missed a few fun activities and seem genuinely remorseful (minimum amount of a time: 15 minutes).
     
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  21. Obadiah

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    I must begin with a humorous memory this brought back to me. When I was in fourth grade, the teacher was out of the room. I was behaving (honestly) but the girl sitting next to me tried to whisper to me. I ignored her (probably because I was a fourth grade boy who ignored girls) but just then the teacher walked in and sent both of us out to stand in the hallway for talking. I was so humiliated when other classes walked by, and to make sure those students knew I was innocent, I would quietly point to the girl who did all the talking.

    On a more serious note, I've taught in schools where various time outs were forbidden; in one school, standing in the hallway was considered dangerous. In another school, for about 4 years, missing any amount of recess was considered anti-productive. Other than that, I would agree, it depends on the situation and the student. For me, the most effective actions are to disrupt the disruption. I preferred quietly moving the student to the back of the room to whisper with me concerning the situation and applying consistent consequences as needed. If this was during direct instruction time, moving the student usually stopped the immediate problem and conferring with the student helped the student and I work out a plan to avoid the disruption in the future. But again, there are students who seem to continually have difficulties. I see myself as a team partner to assist the student in behaving appropriately to achieve the best of his/her potential. I must admit, I hadn't always been perfect with management, since I've grown as a teacher in this area throughout my career, but I've had much success with continually discussing with the student on how s/he is improving with the behavior in question. I've especially had success with giving the student a cute physical reminder such as a popsicle stick with a smiley face for a good day or week, a round wooden token with "TUIT" written on it to keep in the desk as a reminder of what's expected (for "I will behave when I get around to it / a round tuit"), etc. I tell the students at the beginning of the year, if they have difficulty with any of the rules, to let me know; I have all kinds of ideas to help them. (Students have told me several times that one of their biggest fears is "forgetting" to follow a rule).
     
  22. Backroads

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    Just this morning I had a thought about out-of-class time out.

    My team lead is excellent with classroom management and is often known as the "Child Whisperer". Today before lunch, she brought in one of her students and asked if he could take a break in my room. I have never seen her do an out of class time-out before, at least not in my room--but we're right next door to one another.

    This could was clearly upset and struggling--eyes still wet with tears and a lot of apparent anger on his face.

    I haven't asked what went wrong (figure it's not my business), but I wonder for a kiddo who is that upset for whatever reason if simply departing the class could be the best option.
     
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  23. Obadiah

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    That was the original intention in the development of time out strategies. To give the child a needed break, to remove the child from the immediate problem, and/or to give the child some time to calm down. I can see where it would depend on the circumstances where the child spends time out.

    I hope I'm not over-emphasizing an especially well written book I've recently read, (I've already mentioned it several times), but this book is so impressive, I feel it's worth mentioning again. It's called No-Drama Discipline: The Whole-Brain Way to Calm the Chaos and Nurture Your Child's Developing Mind. Daniel J. Siegel & Tina Payne Bryson. Bantam: New York, 2014. Ebook ISBN 978-0-345-54805-4. Library # 649.1.
     
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  24. Rox

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    In California, time outs have become a big no-no. In fact, I know of one teacher who was fired in large part due to sending a student outside for a time out. With that said, I have used a "thinking chair" with my elementary special education students where I can supervise them and they can see what is happening in the classroom, but cannot participate. I set one of those hour glass timers (one, three, or five minutes) in front of them so that they can see how long they must sit there before they can return to the activities. I find it effective and students seem to regulate their behavior because I use them. I also try to encourage them to walk themselves to the thinking chair and back if they feel they need a break.
     
  25. Pashtun

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    I teach in California, never heard of it being a big no-no. I think she was likely fired for something other than using out of class time-outs. I assume every teacher is sending students to an agreed upon teacher, not just sending them to sit unsupervised somewhere, however, is this is the case..well...
     
  26. Linguist92021

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    I never heard of class time outs being a no-no (I'm in California)
    According to Fred Jones, class time outs are best if there are a few grade level difference. So you can send a 2nd grader to a 6th grade classroom and that kid will not act up or disrupt that class because he will feel very tiny compared to the big kids. And if you send a 6th grader to a 2nd grade class, he will absolutely hate it. It's not humiliation but he will probably feel that way, which is ok, he already humiliated himself by acting like a fool.

    We also sometimes just tell the kid to step outside for a moment, think about what he's doing and get it together, then come back and start fresh.
    We do have another room for out-of--class suspension (along with a write up, it's serious and there's a staff member there), and most schools have in-house-detention rooms with a teacher. If this room is not available we just send the kid to another classroom (along with the write up).

    2 days ago (funny story) the kids were watching a movie. The life of Ben Carson, awesome story, everyone was into it, but this one would just not stop talking. I finally told him to go outside, not go anywhere but stand there and he doesn't get the see the movie. I was pretty annoyed and didn't care (this kid is testing everyone's patience, including my P's which is pretty rare). I saw him through the window that was around, then when he disappeared, I went outside. he was on the ground doing push ups :) I thought that was the best thing he ever came up with, he got to work off of some of that crazy energy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  27. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Well, I don't really think of it as a time out. If a student is distracted and not working at all, I will move him or her inside the classroom (I have a table in the back....and a student desk away from everyone next to my computer). When I move a student inside the classroom, I usually tell them I am giving them a quieter place to work. If nothing works and a student still doesn't respond (or, let's say a student wasn't distracted with others but just sits there), then I move them outside or, better, to another classroom...
     
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  28. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I want to clarify, when I say outside the classroom I am referring to another teacher...never outside the door or the like.
     
  29. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    We have three round tables outside in a patio area right in front of our classrooms. So, yes, I occasionally move students outside.
     
  30. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    I teach lower elementary, so I remove them from centers or carpet time to sit in their seats. But when their behavior is on my last nerve and I need a break, I send them down the hall to my peer teacher. That only happens after instruction is complete and we need a break from each other. I had a boy last year that would scream and call his classmates names. He was never physical, but his attitude put everyone on edge. I would walk him across to the music room when he became rude to his classmates. When he was screaming at one of the sweet little girls---and they were usually his target---I removed him for them...not him!

    Most of the time, removing my students from centers is the best punishment. They love centers and when I don't allow them to do them, they usually straighten out.
     
  31. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    The whole 'time-outs are a no-no' probably depends on the school and the administration.

    Some admin recommend out of class time-outs if it's something their school does, and to some, it's actually dangerous (depending on the school). If you send a student on an out of class time-out, they're usually moving unsupervised from one class to another, and can get into all kinds of hooliganism between here and there (if they even make it to there).

    That's one reason why I just stick with in-class time-outs. I used to do out-of-class time-outs, and I would have to deal with kids who missed information in class that was crucial for them to understand, annoyed teachers who were tired of hosting Billy Troublemaker in their classroom and causing disruptions when they entered, and getting lost on the way to the other classroom. Plus you have to figure out what kind of work to give them to work on, etc. It's just a headache.

    Time-out in my class, and if that doesn't work, call home, or principal support call.
     
  32. Pashtun

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    What is a principal support call? Where you actually call the principal to come to your class to help with an unruly student?

    For the call home, do you do this or do you have the student do it? Or is it after class? Is the call home in leiu of the letter home? or do you replace the letter home with a phone call?
     
  33. EdEd

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    Haven't read all posts in great detail, but wanted to chime in regarding the OP - I use what's a called a stepwise time out procedure. This involves multiple steps of time out that actually have multiple behavioral strategies folded in to it, and involves both in and out of classroom TO.

    In short, there are multiple steps (hence in the name) that a child would move through based on compliance with each prior step. Step 1 is that a child would be sent out of the group activity, but within the room. If the child stays for a few minutes then decides to make a good choice, s/he is allowed to return with no additional consequence. If the child doesn't complete step 1, s/he moves to step 2 - physically moves to standing next to door. For every minute the child spends in step 2 (and above), s/he must pay back with a minute of free time later on. The incentivizes the child to complete lower steps of time out more effectively, and attaches an additional consequence to removal from class. If the child fails to complete step 2, s/he moves to step 3 (serving TO in another classroom). If not completely correctly, the child moves to step 4 (serving TO in admin office). Once a child decides to make a good choice, the time clock (of payback) stops, and the child has to move back down through each step. The child then can rejoin the group if s/he can let the teacher know what the good choice would be.

    This is the short version of it, with additional procedures & steps involved before & during, and also relies on other systems being in place (e.g., social problem-solving/social thinking process, social skills training, admin support, etc.). But, I at least wanted to provide a short description to get across the point that it doesn't have to be either/or.
     
  34. Peregrin5

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    Yes. The principal comes to your class and depending on the situation, either sits with the student as they work, has a chat with the student, or pulls the student out entirely. It keeps them from missing class time and sends the message that the teachers have the full support of the principal.

    I used to do letters home. They never got home. It just didn't work for me (even though Michael Linsin recommends it). I now do what our PE department taught me.

    You have the kid go to the phone and dial their parents themselves. They explain exactly what they did wrong and why they are having to call. Then they pass the phone onto you where you can fill in any details (in case the student wasn't fully forthcoming) and suggest a consequence to the parents (I usually say, "Do you think a lunch detention would be an appropriate consequence?". The answer is always "Yes" or even "I think 3 lunch detentions would be better.")

    This is so much more powerful than me just calling home or leaving a letter. I've had parents tell me that they had no idea how rude and disrespectful their kid was being until they heard their tone of voice on the phone when they were explaining what they did to break the rules, and didn't really believe me when I just sent emails or left voicemails. It works great.

    I really have to do this once or twice, even with my worst offenders. Kids HATE it. It's one thing when you call yourself as a teacher and the kid doesn't really feel the consequence until later. It's another that they're receiving a parent lecture, right there in class, immediately after the behavior, and the rest of the class is watching them being cut down by their parents. (I don't stop class though. I keep on teaching or they keep doing their activities, but I only have one phone at the very front of the class so it's very obvious)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  35. Pashtun

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    @EdEd
    Yeah, I have and at times do use both. I was curious about in class time-outs while during independent work. My experience is that it is not nearly as effective as out of class time-outs during these types of activities.

    @Peregrin, I like the idea of having the student call home and can see this being much more effective than the note home....I may have to try this.
     
  36. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I like this method. I've used something similar.

    Where do you get the free time that students must pay back? Are you talk about time after class or something built in to your class?
     
  37. EdEd

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    I definitely think that each classroom is different and you'll need to tweak any strategy based on your school, particular classroom management style, etc. In terms of in vs. out, I'd highlight that it's not an either/or for me, but "both at the same time" - sequentially.
     
  38. EdEd

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    I'm in a non-traditional setting so I have a bit more flexibility. Certainly it can be hard for teachers that have every minute spoken for with non-negotiable instruction.

    One creative concept for "free time" would be to not actually use play time or truly free time, but different types of instruction that may be more or less preferable. So, maybe for the last 20 minutes of the day students can choose between 3 different types of academic activities, but that time is "lost" during time out, and replaced by teacher-selected activities (obviously less preferable ones).

    Still, rather than time it could be that every minute spent in time out results in a point lost in a token economy, or something else. The bottom line for me is to "audit" preferable things you have in class, and turn them into earnables.
     
  39. Rox

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    I was a member of the jury who determined the fate of her appeal. I know exactly what she was fired for. She left a student unsupervised outside of the classroom for a time out. Granted, she was overall a poor teacher, based on testimony from co-workers, but a large part of the trial focused on that specific event. LAUSD and other districts have policies against time outs, but many are not aware of them. California's laws are vague, but adequate supervision must be provided during a time out. I guess the word "adequate" would be left up to interpretation.
     
  40. Pashtun

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    Yes, what you are describing makes perfect sense as to why she was fired. sounds like she was fired for leaving students unsupervised, not timed out. If she had sent the students out of the room to work on an assignment unsupervised, she would still have been fired, no?

    I guess I am not seeing the issue with time-outs, I am seeing an issue with a teacher's judgment about leaving students unsupervised, very very different than a student being timed out in another classroom, fully supervised.

    LAUSD has a policy against in classroom and out of classroom timeouts? You are not allowed to send a student to another classroom in this manner? You are not allowed to have an in classroom timeout in LAUSD?

    EDIT: With regards to this you may be right, I now vaguely remember LAUSD has some wierd, failing, no suspension, bizaare experiment on student behavior discipline.
     
  41. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Nov 9, 2015

    This document (granted I don't know if it's out of date or note) seems to say that time-outs are an appropriate consequence, so I don't think that's what Rox is saying. http://www.utla.net/system/files/2007-04-25_discipline_foundation_policy.pdf

    It's probably just that a student can't be sent out of the classroom for a time-out while unsupervised, meaning a campus supervisor or someone would have to accompany the student to the other classroom.
     

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