The Paula Deen conflict, makes me wonder

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Irishdave, Jun 25, 2013.

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  1. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    These kinds of statements are extremely problematic and, at their most basic level, evidence of sociological ignorance.
     
  2. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    Do you think you could clarify? Why not?
     
  3. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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  4. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    I understand, but you haven't explained why.
     
  5. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    Being polite is not a good enough reason?
     
  6. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Think about words you wouldn't use in front of S's grandmama, Mike, and perhaps this will make more sense. If she flinches at a word, I'll wager that you stop using it in her hearing - and then perhaps you notice others flinching much less obviously and conclude that the word might be best left to private situations or even left unsaid.
     
  7. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    No. Why should the oppressed be polite when fighting back?
     
  8. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    I don't think you understand me at all.
     
  9. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    Nor you me.
     
  10. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Mike, you're on the other end of the binoculars on this one, I'm afraid.
     
  11. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    I guess it annoys me that because I am a white man I am automatically a racist.

    My ancestors did not come to America till after the civil War.

    Is there any way a white person cannot be racist?
     
  12. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

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    We really haven't come very far in America, have we?
    Racism exists in ALL races. I, as a white female, have been told by my black parents that I cannot teach black children. Yes, I am using the word "black" because that is exactly what was said to me.
    I am still teaching (19 years later) AA children, successfully, I might add. (I am going by my state test scores).
    I think if all races could come together and be AMERICAN, so much hatred would be put to rest. I never quite understood why we have to be African-American, Jewish-American, Hispanic-American, and so on. I am sure the soldiers of the past who fought for our freedoms didn't stand on a battle ground and yell " I'm fighting for __________-Americans!" ( you insert the race).
     
  13. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    But Major is bringing up an excellent point. It was in the back of my mind too. You hear this word thrown around all the time by rappers and I would assume others, and it is largely accepted and okay. Paula Deen used it 30 years ago and now it is headline news. There seems to be a double standard here.
     
  14. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    This pretty much sums up my opinion on the whole thing: ¨Let he who is without sin cast the first stone¨ John 8:7 There´s been so much ¨stone throwing¨ for something that was said 30 years ago. I think most of us have said something we regret.
     
  15. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    Thank you Tami ..... and I agree with you. Regarding Paula Deen, there's definitely a double standard. (I've never understood why a person of any race tolerates the rapper's use of the N-word.... then again I don't understand or appreciate Rap music with or without the word).
     
  16. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    I do feel that the times are a chang'n
    Back in my "Hippie" Days I felt that times were not changing fast enough but now that I have seen 61 summers all I can say is one thing we can count on is change and it is not just fast, just slow, just in great size or just in little steps, It is all and it will happen at it own pace. We can not expect any more than that



    The Times They Are A-Changing

    Come gather 'round people
    Wherever you roam
    And admit that the waters
    Around you have grown
    And accept it that soon
    You'll be drenched to the bone
    If your time to you
    Is worth savin'
    Then you better start swimmin'
    Or you'll sink like a stone
    For the times they are a-changin'.

    Come writers and critics
    Who prophesize with your pen
    And keep your eyes wide
    The chance won't come again
    And don't speak too soon
    For the wheel's still in spin
    And there's no tellin' who
    That it's namin'
    For the loser now
    Will be later to win
    For the times they are a-changin'.

    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    There's a battle outside
    And it is ragin'
    It'll soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is
    Rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'.

    The line it is drawn
    The curse it is cast
    The slow one now
    Will later be fast
    As the present now
    Will later be past
    The order is
    Rapidly fadin'
    And the first one now
    Will later be last
    For the times they are a-changin'.


    What's ironic about this song is that, I think, each new generation can sing this to the previous one, because it seems that, when each generation fails to grow, they become just as jaded as the previous one, and need a poke in the ribs to wake them some, telling them that they had better help the next generation better society and be a part of things, or else be swept aside and be forgotten.~John Smith

    Namaste
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Jun 26, 2013

    Actually, this situation proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we do have freedom of speech. Is she in jail? No? Then we have freedom of speech.

    Freedom of speech doesn't pertain to public perception. It is relevant only in a legal sense.

    She isn't being punished by the government. She is being punished by the free market.
     
  18. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Well that is a good point, and in that sense you are correct. However, the idea that she could lose her business deals over something she said 30 years ago shows that our speech is not so free. It comes with a price. I saw a black male refer to this as ¨the word police¨ and I think that´s exactly what we see all the time happening in our country. To refer to something I heard Dr. Ben Carson say (also a black male), we have been muzzled, and that´s very dangerous. Like I have already said, I don´t defend what she said, but I think this has gone too far. Once again, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime.
     
  19. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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  20. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    I think Paula Deen and Ina Garten (the Barefoot Contessa) would make wonderful neighbors....... I would try to have lunch or dinner with these ladies at least once a week ... maybe more. :D
     
  21. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    My opinions are based on what I have been following, in regard to the case, on the news. I certainly don´t mean to oversimplify anything, just state my thoughts on the matter. I realize my thoughts differ from the majority on this thread, but they are my opinions nonetheless. I don´t agree with racism at all (I am married to a Mexican man and live in Mexico and am all about being culturally and ethnically aware and sensitive), but I think a comment made 30 years ago doesn´t quite constitute as being racist. Personally, I wish Paula Deen all the best in this, but I respect anyone who differs in opinion.
     
  22. iloveschool

    iloveschool Companion

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    Jun 26, 2013

    Ina Garten refused to meet with a terminally ill child whose greatest wish was to meet her. She was too busy. Not at all interested in having her for a neighbor.
     
  23. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Jun 26, 2013

    Paula Deen referenced the 'first stone' verse this morning on the Today Show:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/26/paula-deen-today-show_n_3501825.html
    :(
     
  24. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    This is a bit off topic with recent posts, but on topic with the original. To me, one of the great tragedies of this situation is that we are evaluating it in the context of media reporting which is inherently sensationalized. Paula Deen could be the best person alive, or the worst, and we really don't know. We have a few pieces of information here and there which we can't even verify. This isn't to minimize anything she may have done, but the point is that none of us are really in a place to evaluate or judge her as a person.

    I DO agree with a society responding to certain behavior and holding folks accountable, though. Even if she doesn't deserve it, I think what's happened to her is part of a long process of correcting our society's behavior. It's through situations like these that we all continue to learn what is and is not okay. Of course, that behavior just may be pushed beneath the surface, but it nevertheless is a positive thing to express animosity toward behavior we, as a society, find reprehensible.

    What would be great, in my opinion, is for a discussion to happen over the coming days/weeks with Paula and other folks. Not dismissing her immediately, but having a conversation of why those words were or weren't uttered. Wouldn't it be great for their to be an open roundtable discussion where we furthered the racial discussion in this country?

    As for me, I'm just done with the media. Think of the teacher-bashing that's gone on, for example. We rely too much on the media to form our opinions, and it's caused us to become a judgement group of folks that makes hasty decisions on little information. I don't agree with using the N-word, but I don't agree with a media campaign that has inadvertently destroyed the woman's life with no regard for a more in-depth consideration of what's gone on.
     
  25. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    No offense, but I think that's a cop out. I don't agree with Irish Dave or some of the other comments, but if we leave discussions like this early we accomplish nothing. Continue the discussion, and continue letting people know how wrong they are. Explain it to them. Take the time. Be offended, but stay around and explain why. We'll all be better off for it.
     
  26. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    People are multifaceted....we make mistakes, we made bad choices, we do good things. We can hate the words Ms Deen used but hope that her truthfulness in admitting to these mistakes will help her and others reflect and grow as a result.:2cents:
     
  27. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I guess my point was that it wasn't just one comment made 30 years ago. According to her own sworn statement in a deposition, there are lots and lots of other questionable things that she's said and done, most of them very recently. When you wrap them all up and look at the big picture, it definitely seems like she's a little closer to the "racist" end of the spectrum than not.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I do think that you make a great point. I wish, however, that she had been more apologetic. Instead, to me, it seems like she's wanting to come from the place of a victim, making excuses (I'm an old, white woman from the South, and But that's how they talk in the kitchen! I didn't know that it was offensive to use the n-word!). In her most recent Today interview, she didn't ever say that she was sorry. I think that was a mistake.
     
  29. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    In other words, if white people can't use the word, then no one can.

    I agree with Mike--some oppressed communities have reclaimed words and that is their right. I don't like hearing the n word, but it is not my right to claim the right to use it if an oppressed group uses it.
     
  30. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Au contraire, EdEd: it was a cop-out when Miss84 was blown off with claims that the word is necessarily acceptable now (what: because RAPPERS use it? Really? Since when are rappers arbiters of appropriateness?) and with claims, among others, that racism is irrelevant simply because a half-century has passed since the civil rights legislation of the early 1960s.
     
  31. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    As for Paula Deen, I predict it will be for her as it was for, say, Michael Vick or Leona Helmsley or an assortment of other celebrities and pundits: the business will lag for a while, but - and probably sooner rather than later - new deals will be struck.
     
  32. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I don't think she was blown off - she was challenged. I don't agree with that challenge, but it wasn't blowing her off, it was disagreeing with her, which is what I'm supporting - let's discuss, not leave.
     
  33. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    teacherintexas I think the idea is that it is actually NOT offensive to some folks, but a strategic move to reappropriate the term. I have conflicting thoughts, but that's the argument. It's not about right or standing to say something offensive, but the possibility of turning something negative into something potentially positive.
     
  34. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Not so. At least two old white men have announced that either racism or the legacy of slavery or both should be irrelevant to everyone because those issues are irrelevant to them. That's not disagreement: that's dismissal.
     
  35. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    So, if I say that sexual orientation should not be relevant to marriage rights, I'm being dismissive because I'm proclaiming that a social status shouldn't factor into one's definition of marriage?
     
  36. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    I can't even parse this sentence, EdEd. Try again.
     
  37. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I can understand that. I think, though, that comfort is a luxury that might be hurtful to place over true equality. I'm not saying that the use of the n-word necessarily accomplishes that goal, but if that's part of a broader challenge to inequality, I'm fine with people being uncomfortable in the short term if that leads to longer-term benefit for all involved.

    To connect with your point, though, I think very few folks actively use the n-word in a way that is actively about promoting social justice. I do wonder how many folks use the word for purposes that aren't about promoting equality, but just because everyone else is using that word. I know a lot of kids that use the word and don't know what it means, and certainly don't understand the nuance of "reappropriation."

    So, I guess I'm saying I don't fully agree with use of the n-word and see a lot of potential hurt - not only to those outside that context who may find the word uncomfortable, but those within that social context who may be unintentionally hurt because the practice isn't as strategically implemented as some may claim.
     
  38. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    A few folks on this thread expressed their opinion that race shouldn't be a factor in people's minds in 2013. Other folks believe that sexual orientation shouldn't be a factor when considering marriage benefits. Do you see those two beliefs as sharing any common ground?
     
  39. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I agree with you HeartDrama. I'm not to make a comparison because TeacherGroupie and I started having a side discussion about whether folks were being dismissive or disagreeing with some earlier comments made.
     
  40. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Inapt parallel, in part because the phrase "shouldn't be a factor" plays out in different ways in the two cases: in logic, this is the error of equivocation. People who argue that sexual orientation "shouldn't be a factor" in marriage benefits are arguing that marriage is marriage irrespective of the genders of the participants; they are arguing for inclusion, and they may well be LGBTQ themselves. People who argue that race "shouldn't be a factor" are arguing that because they don't experience racism, no one else does either.
     
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