The Getting-a-Chair-Hurled-at-Me Club

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Backroads, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    You have rights until a certain point. For example, once you are convicted then your rights are suspended somewhat, such as your freedom to travel. Same thing should be said for the US school system. There are some students who just don’t belong among the general population because they’re too dangerous.
     
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  2. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Dec 26, 2017

    And that is just for the teachers............
     
  3. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    A great Christmas day but the food and fresh squeezed OJ (and partaking too late ) has my acid reflux send me to the chair. So I read this whole thread about violence in our schools and the amazing way Japan solves it with a british man teaching there? I walked into an American public school in 1961. Rural south and segregated. My first grade teacher slapped me for probably being a smart***. All my other teachers could spank me for bad behavior. My high school could do the same. I went to a major southern university and began teaching in a middle school 1978. If I had a real problem with a kid I sent a note to the principal and was given permission to give said child a swat with an adult witness. I gave out very few but trust me when I say they rest knew it was out there and could happen to them. It worked. Worked on me and later for me. Now before I hear anyone cry "child abuse and beating kids" let me say in my forty years of teaching I have seen the result of REAL child abuse. It is not nice or pretty. It is devastating mentally , socially and physically to kids. A swat for bad behavior comes nowhere near the abuse they suffer at home. The threat of a butt tap was real and effective and a boundary MOST didnt want to cross. My line now is 75% or more would behave because they didnt want it. 20% would chance it but get back in line soon after the tap. You could swat 5% or less all day long and it would not work. Now we have inclusion and IEPs and behavior plans and BRTs and APs and counselors and mental health teams etc etc etc. And prison populations bigger than the next 10 countries combined.
    There are no easy answers to our school problems. With a lawyer in every corner waiting for you to "damage" a child somehow we are all "careful as hell".
    I have been lucky. I teach PE in a rural elem. setting. Most of the kids I teach are offspring of people I taught. Even a few grandkids now. They love to get outside and play and for the most part behave. I do see many more now with "problems" than I did in starting in 78. Belch, you need to understand we do not have the powers you would like us to have. I whole heartedly agree we need schools to be a safe space. We are so micromanaged from the top down now we just do what they say most of the time. We have no power. I cannot go on strike in Fla. I saw them strike when I was a kid and many were fired. Kids are still kids and will test you and do what you let them. I could talk all day about what I see happening and what has changed. I will leave you with this. The people that are in charge of policy and ultimately curriculum are non educators in our country. *#*&$# politicians that when elected become "experts" on education. They all went to school so they KNOW what we need. They were slowly and now quickly destroying what was a good thing for many years with their idiocy and ignorance. I love my job but when I see young teachers being covered up in paper work and unreal expectations for five year olds each year I see a doomed system. They love to chant the "schools are failing". The reality is they are doing their damnedest to make it happen.
     
  4. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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  5. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    This goes far beyond the actual violence, which might be why so many are trying to downplay this "chair hurled at me club". Any other profession where this happens is going to lose a lot of people that might have otherwise considered it a career worthy of pursuing.

    But no, that's only the icing on this poisonous cake. That's actually a felony called assault with a dangerous weapon that carries with it both fines and a prison sentence ranging from months to years, depending on the state, and then civil lawsuits if any injuries result.

    What worries me is that violence is the original vicious cycle. Violence begets violence, and the psychological damage that comes from being a victim of violence becomes multi-generational if this behavior is treated as a minor occurrence worthy of nothing more than being sent to school jail (i.e. de-escalation room) for the afternoon.

    I've explained how the counter-measures being used are insufficient, but it seems that few care, or rather, not near enough care enough to demand a change.

    For stephenphe, I would add that I understand the idea of corporal punishment as a means of modifying behavior, but violence is still violence. We don't learn anything except more violence from violence.

    Think about what you lose when you are beaten. You lose part of the respect you have for yourself are as a person, and that results in a need to regain some respect. Violence is the way you have been taught to regain that because that's how you lost it.

    In my opinion, we should teach our students to respect themselves, and to understand that there are consequences for our actions. If you lose respect because you were violent, you will want to gain that respect back through being non-violent.
     
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  6. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    That really makes no sense. I have heard it before. You are assuming an 8 or 10 or even 15 year old thinks like an adult. Most of them do not. They want what they think they need. Attention or someone's toy or money. Myself and most of my peers grew up with corporal punishment at home and school. Almost all of us grew up to be productive adults with normal lives. We didn't become violent because of a swat on the behind once in awhile. We learned that there ARE consequences to our actions that are unpleasant. With minors it was a swat. As adults those same behavior could lead to jail.
    You use the word beaten. A swat on the behind is not a beating. It didnt tell me to go find someone else to beat it told me to desist in the bad behavior I was doing. It was quick and final justice that soon was over like a burn on your finger. Back in the day, adults especially teachers, were there to help us learn and to be respected, You knew damned good and well there were consequences to misbehaving. Most knew the line crossed meant nothing fun. And most parents didnt like you embarrassing them with those actions so they added to the fun. It was a mini version of our legal system where the consequences were MUCH harsher.
    Exactly, consequences and being HELD ACCOUNTABLE for our actions are the key to us having a successful society. Teachers can do all the new ways to gain that with kids but as long as parents are not doing their jobs and teachers can only talk and maybe time kids out it is gonna be the same results.
    When kids grow up with mild consequences they will continue to go their merry way. Then the court systems eventually get involved and it is sad.
    Do I think spanking is the only answer. A resounding no. I think it is a last resort but it is an option that works well with MANY kids. My dad loved me. He showed me all the time but he also held me accountable. My teachers were the same. Some may call it tough love but I call it common sense.
     
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  7. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Yet you exhibit the same resort to violence that your teachers, and probably your father, resorted to.

    As I said, violence is a vicious cycle. It stops when it stops.
     
  8. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    If "It stops when it stops", then why has violence escalated so much in classrooms and schools that have banned corporal punishment over the last couple of decades? Sort of sinks your argument, I think.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  9. CherryOak

    CherryOak Comrade

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    Dec 26, 2017

    I love group work and its value is strong. I'm for it. Still, I have wondered a lot about its impact on the increased behaviors. I wonder if our emphasis on group work requires well developed social skills from all and some just don't have them yet. (Especially paired with a decrease in siblings and therefore prior, at home exposure...group dynamics require training to maneuver.) Make sense? Decades ago, students needed to "behave" by sitting in silence. That takes a lot less social skills and it's practically void of stressful triggers, arguments, etc. from others.

    I only bring this up because I think things like this have more impact to our increase in behaviors than the choice of consequences delivered to misbehaving students. I don't have answers, but I do think we attribute too much to paddling if we claim it had as much impact as some say. Lots of other things have changed in education, as well, and they are factors, too.
     
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  10. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    While doing this all the time isn't good, but sitting in silence does increase some social skills. It increases the student's ability to wait and be less impulsive. It was horrible for kids who didn't have that skill, but students are now lacking the ability to have patience and impulse control.

    It seems that many of these ideas revolve around moderation. A non-physically harming swat might be acceptable to some, sitting in silence during times during the day, and other type of controlling behaviors will teach social skills. It is part of working together. Even in the Japan video, sitting in silence on a bus or a train is a social skill. Not being social can be a social skill.
     
  11. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Violence doesn't just come from teachers administering corporal punishment, so that's a false dichotomy. It comes from parents, peers, or any person that causes one to feel humiliation.

    Remember that violence isn't just the infliction of pain. I know we like to think that a swat on the buttocks is merely negative reinforcement, just as it is when a dog bites you, or you put your hand on a hot pan. There is shame and humiliation that goes along with it, and a corresponding loss of social status.

    It's a vastly interesting subject for me, which is why I've participated in this thread so much. I don't know all of the elements that go into the making of a violent person, but I do know that it is much more than teachers administering corporal punishment.
     
  12. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Dec 26, 2017

    AMEN!!
     
  13. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Virtuoso

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    This is foreign to me, too, and I do teach in the US. I don't know of anyone who has had a chair thrown at them. I've had a couple of instances of kids throwing something out of anger of frustration, but it was more like a book on the floor, not actually an object at someone.
     
  14. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Dec 29, 2017

    Yet we have five pages of your compatriots saying that they see this violence, and would rather have them in their classrooms, rather than being denied an education.
     
  15. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    You have completely missed the point.

    Do we want violent children in the classroom...absolutely not! Are our hands tied to due to bureaucracy, insane district and school rules, and administrations unwilling to do what is necessary to remove violent children?

    Absolutely yes!
     
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  16. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Virtuoso

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    They have to get an education, but not in a classroom where they are a danger to others.

    We have an alternative school. Violent and uncooperative students go there. I've had three students go there this year. One had been violent to others,but was only mouthy in my classroom. The others just wouldn't work, but we're not a distraction.
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    No. You have 5 pages of teachers saying they don't want violence in the classroom but they don't have the power to make placement changes for the student. They do send the child to administration, but if their administration won't do anything about it, the child will come back.

    I hadn't responded to much of this thread, but Belch, you are wrong in your conclusion. No one here is saying they want violence int he classroom. They want the child to receive the right services and in the right placement, but they don't call the shots.
     
  18. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    One thing my district does well at most of its schools is to keep violence out of the classroom. As you can see, Belch, I said most of its schools. That is because each school has some autonomy which means administration calls the shots. There are administrators who don't want to deal with the issues. Overall, though, if a child is violent, the child is removed and ends up in another placement if the violence continues past the initial incident and intervention didn't help.
     
  19. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Yes, but if a student is threatening the lives of other students or is a danger to themselves or staff, then all it takes is a quick phone call to the police and the student will be removed quickly. I’ve seen it done many times in public schools.
     
  20. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    You've seen that done many times in public schools? Like, you've personally witnessed this? "Many times"? I need more information here.
     
  21. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    Part of the prof's "War on Public Schools" ;)
     
  22. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Yes, it happened in each of the middle and high schools I attended in my upbringing (my family moved around a lot because we are a military family). In the county where I currently work (population is well over 400k), some of the ailing schools have a constant police presence and remove students when they get aggressive to teachers and other students, mentally disabled or otherwise. They are routinely taken to youth detention centers or jail if the student is an adult. This is exactly the type of response the public AND private school system should have when handling students of this level of impotence.
     
  23. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    No, I just have higher standards than schools that accept this kind of thing. :D:p
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  24. julia1994

    julia1994 Guest

    Dec 29, 2017

    If subbing paid enough, I'd be tempted to do that.
     
  25. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    I've had a few thoughts while reading this thread. The OP's student is only 7 or 8-years-old. While discussing this thread with my mother, she wondered, and so did I, if the student was responding in a manner he had observed in other situations among adults, such as possibly at home. Often such misbehavior is viewed as the teacher's fault, but it wasn't the teacher who was misbehaving, it was the student. Concerning appropriate reactions to such behavior, with respect to differences in opinion, personally I do not view corporal punishment in a school as the answer and although classroom procedures should include an age appropriate penalty, I think we need to be cautious in administering punishment. I hear so many people say, "What that kid needs is a good spanking", as if a swat has some type of mystical powers. It is true that kids will try to avoid punishment, but punishment of any sort alone does not teach.

    A student who is reacting negatively to lower brain chemistry needs to not only to learn to think and plan more appropriate reactions, but this student needs to learn a reason for appropriate and successful social behavior. This student needs to learn to be less egocentric and more empathetic. No one can predict if an initial or even a secondary violent and dangerous outburst will occur, so it is a judgment call to be sure, but if it seems that a student can safely be in a regular classroom, then yes, s/he should be, but in my opinion, if a student is a threat to the safety of others, then an alternative learning environment is more appropriate. One possible alternative could even be a classroom aide specifically assigned to that particular student.

    But in any situation, not only are the other students in danger, but the perpetrator of violence is also in danger. S/he will now be ostracized by peers. No matter if the student redirects her/his behavior, s/he will probably be ostracized, because parents don't want their children associating with this misbehaved child. Ultimately, that child will become an adult who could possibly turn to criminal behavior, very likely as a drug abuser, and more people will be effected by this person's violence, including the violence from the drug pushers who profit from this person's addiction.

    The discussions on alternative schools caused me to think about the one in our district. We have an EXCELLENT alternative school in our area. Monthly, as I drive by, I read an outdoor sign that the students posted with a positive quotation concerning appropriate behavior. The teachers, rather than teaching at the students, teach with the students. Most importantly, they are taught how and why to behave. I had an unusual opportunity to meet one of these students. While I was in the public library (trying to get my mini-laptop to work) a middle school boy walked up to me and asked, "Are you a teacher?" I didn't know who he was, but of course I answered yes. Well, it turned out he was searching for a tutor who shortly arrived. I eavesdropped on their lesson and heard the boy describe his experiences at the alternative school. He seemed very appreciative of his new school including their procedures and expectations....it just seemed like the school was a perfect fit for his current developmental needs.
     
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  26. Rabbitt

    Rabbitt Connoisseur

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    This was me last year. Student would throw things at me and others destroying the room and another would join the fun. I would remove the class. The IEP didn't allow much. Union finally decided that other teachers were to call police as I was removing the class. Worked like a charm.
     
  27. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Did the child magically stop or did the school provide different services and/or LRE?
     
  28. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Any good intervention plan must include services to work with the student to identify and resolve the problem areas. Many plans address how to circumvent with no leg of counseling to help the student learn to recognize the feelings and to change their thought process.
     
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  29. Rabbitt

    Rabbitt Connoisseur

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    After about 7 calls, he stopped. It happened a few times after and again this year too. Basically the parents were irate with the police involvement. He was a child who just is used to getting his way and when he didn't, tantrum. I wasn't playing his game.
     
  30. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    And... most districts have solutions for these kids.
     
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  31. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Students that are among the "most dangerous" are typically schooled in increasingly more restrictive environments as is dictated by their actions and classifications. Sometimes the students end up in the most restrictive environments that can include detention facilities, or, in schools that specialize in dealing with students usually classified as EBD, where the students are housed in residential settings. Students who fail these settings frequently end in the prison system, but every attempt is made to place these students in small classes with highly qualified staff, support staff, and psychiatric treatment and routine meetings with their therapists and social workers. They are not thrown to the wolves for a first infraction, but are treated in a manner where they can earn their diploma and experience some degree of success. The number of factors involved in these classifications is usually quite high, many outside of the student's control. Some of these were born to drug addicted mothers, suffer from FAS, have experienced TBI, neglect, abuse, and abandonment. Poverty can exacerbate all other factors. These students may be court ordered into treatment in an attempt to salvage futures for as many of these students as possible. Nothing can ever be assumed to be 100% effective, but treatment will help many learn to be productive citizens. Age and experience can help change these student's actions and understanding of what is and is not socially acceptable.

    Few teachers choose this most restrictive environment, but over time we become adept at dealing with volatile students. We are bolstered by safeties, who have our backs, and every staff member is trained in "Handle with Care" and "Verbal Deescalation Techniques." We are not martyrs, nor do we work alone. There is a wonderful feeling on graduation day, as some of the students we most doubted would make it to that day are standing in their gowns and hats. Far better to try to send them out into the community with skills that can support them and give them a better chance of success. They don't all make it, of course, but it is worth the effort.
     

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