The Getting-a-Chair-Hurled-at-Me Club

Since you admit that you have never had the experience of dealing with an out-of-control student, I don't find that you have the right to say that the teacher has caused the problem.

Special education teachers deal with many students who have brain dysfunctions that cause them to act in bizarre ways. We deal with children who should be medicated to help with behavior, and are not. We deal with children who are over medicated, children with severe behavior disorders related to their home environment, or lack there of; children who have been abused and neglected, which leads to behavior problems, etc.
We also deal with children who choose to misbehave simply because it makes them feel strong and important, in their eyes.

So, before anyone lays the label on a teacher that they are the reason for the behavior, come walk in our shoes for a while and see how you would handle things.

I apologize if you thought I was singling you out. I was referring to the educational system you work in. From everything I hear, it seems close to dysfunctional. I certainly couldn't teach in a school with lots of students with behavioral problems. Like me, I assume you walk into a classroom on the first day of a new academic year and you get what you got. If I walked in and got a chair thrown at me, I'd walk right back out and find a job where that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

That said, I think there must be a reason why our experiences as teachers are so very different. This doesn't mean you personally, but there has to be a reason. It could be something in the water for all I know, but there is something going on that is different.
 
That said, I think there must be a reason why our experiences as teachers are so very different. This doesn't mean you personally, but there has to be a reason. It could be something in the water for all I know, but there is something going on that is different.

I think that issue has been touched on. In many other countries the school system is run quite differently from here. Students with disabilities are very often not included in the school population, much like it was here a few decades ago. Excluding problem students will make the teacher's life much easier, but it does nothing to help the education of the students being excluded
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I have taught in both situations and I much prefer our present system. Yes, we have problems and concerns about students who don't fit the norm, but I have seen many of those students grow up to be functioning, happy members of society. I would hate to think that we are discarding students who might someday be an asset to our adult population just because they give us problems when they were younger.
 
Like 2nd said, don't let other teachers get to you, especially if they're talking out of their butts and wouldn't last two seconds in a REAL classroom. In my experience, there's a certain type of person that decides to teach in other countries rather than in the US, and it's NOT because they're effective, experienced, or skilled teachers. Don't get me wrong, there are other teachers who teach abroad who ARE great teachers, but I've met a lot of this certain type of teacher that can't hack it here in the US so they run to a country where the culture allows them to deal with fewer behavioral issues and they think that behavior means they are better than those of us that deal with REAL problems on a daily basis.

Cute ad hominem. My report button is currently missing, but I assure you that I am a real teacher with real students in a real classroom. I administer real tests and assign real grades that really matter in the real world.

Did I run to a country to where I don't have to deal with the students you deal with? No!

Honestly, I'm staggered that this post is allowed to fester on this forum.

Might I suggest that making things personal isn't very professional? We were talking about real issues in real classrooms, and I am somewhat nonplussed as to how the mods allowed such a gross ad hominem to stay while I have been admonished for far far far less.

I think we here in Japan can help those teachers elsewhere, just as others might be able to help teachers who teach in other countries. So far, I've been told that this hurling of chairs and other violence, both against faculty and students, is preferable to a possible alternative.

So be it...
 
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Cute ad hominem. My report button is currently missing, but I assure you that I am a real teacher with real students in a real classroom. I administer real tests and assign real grades that really matter in the real world.

Did I run to a country to where I don't have to deal with the students you deal with? No!

Honestly, I'm staggered that this post is allowed to fester on this forum.

Might I suggest that making things personal isn't very professional? We were talking about real issues in real classrooms, and I am somewhat nonplussed as to how the mods allowed such a gross ad hominem to stay while I have been admonished for far far far less.

I think we here in Japan can help those teachers elsewhere, just as others might be able to help teachers who teach in other countries. So far, I've been told that this hurling of chairs and other violence, both against faculty and students, is preferable to a possible alternative.

So be it...

There are many problems with the American education system, and I think that the US could learn a lot from other countries when it comes to education. My concerns about your opinions lie in a few places, namely what seems like a complete lack of understanding of how things work in US schools and what feels a lot like blame directed at individual teachers.

As mentioned many times across many threads, American schools are very different from schools in most other countries specifically in that American public schools accept all students, regardless of ability or behavior. This includes kids with very severe conduct disorders and mental illness, kids who aren't verbal and wear diapers, kids who are profoundly gifted, kids who can't read, kids with severe physical impairments, neurotypical kids, kids with drug and alcohol problems, and literally every other kind of kid you can think of. And in most cases, all those kids are in the same classes! We don't generally track kids, not to the extent that this is done in other countries, anyway. Public schools in the US don't have the option to exclude or dismiss students with these issues; even when students are expelled for egregious or illegal behaviors, the system must, in nearly all cases, find another placement for the student. I have worked with at-risk populations for my entire teaching career, and I've literally never seen a kid removed from a school without being placed into another school. That just doesn't really happen in the US.

For that reason, as well as other reasons, teachers in the US are limited as to what they can do as individuals when they encounter challenging students. It's simply not a legal option to throw a kid out onto the streets, or defenestrate them, or put them into a headlock. That is not how things are done. When you berate teachers here for not doing those things, it negates many of the positive things you might otherwise be able to share about what's good about education in your neck of the woods. We all get it: you may not be willing to put up with certain behaviors, so you believe that teachers who do must be themselves the cause of such behaviors and therefore at fault. That isn't it, though. Just like I can't simply assign a convicted criminal to life in prison because it's beyond my scope of practice and legal ability, I can't legally do some of the things that you would or can do in the classroom.

Furthermore, the issue of poverty, while not unique in and of itself, has very peculiar characteristics in the US. Poverty plays a huge role in these terrible things you're reading about here and in the news, but it's being mistaken, by you and others, as a racial or cultural issue. Poverty is systemic and much larger than any individual teacher or school or district.
 
I think you are mistaken about how we handle students. We don't defenstrate (nice word btw) students, but rather segregate those that have proven to be violent. They still get an education, but their interactions with other students are severely curtailed. We naturally assume that parents send their children to us with the idea that their children will be safe while in our custody.

That seems so obvious to me, yet your post tells me that parents can't naturally assume that to be true.

Like you, we have to provide an education to any and all. It's just that we segregate students who have proven to be violent from the rest of the students, until such time that we can assume otherwise.

Furthermore, I already explained that I don't berate individual teachers for the behavior of their students. Throwing that responsibility at parents, which we do to an extent, is problematic as even the best parents cannot be responsible for everything their children do.

My own son got written up for grabbing the breast of a school nurse while she was examining him. Nevermind that he was 7 when it happened, I had to take responsibility for his behavior in the future.

honestly, I couldn't find it in my heart to get that angry with him, but... I had to pretend to be angry.

What I do take issue with is the idea that violent students are NOT segregated as soon as they exhibit violent behavior. Not just sent to a room for the afternoon, but that their antisocial behavior is truly taken seriously enough to warrant being segregated from the rest of the students until they prove to somebody ( in our case, it's the principal, who has to sign off on that student's future behavior with his personal seal of endorsement) that they will no longer prove to be a problem.

You don't just have SPED students who exhibit violent tendencies and call it good enough, but rather you have to realize that you're accepting them into a school where they will be violent with other students!

Those other students matter!

Furthermore, those violent students need to understand that violence is going to put them in prison if they continue.

Your own incarceration rates prove that this is something to be taken very seriously. Swansong1 implied that she is perfectly content with accepting any and all students into her classroom, and that she is happy with the current situation, which I assume to be inclusionary of any and all.

Is the end result satisfactory? If not, then maybe you might want to consider a bit more discipline before your students become legal adults, and have to deal with the justice system, rather than the school system...
 
But your concerns are with the system! It's not MY choice to allow violent students to remain in my classroom. It's not about ME as an individual teacher maybe needing to consider "a bit more discipline". I have pretty good classroom management and I can handle most things that are thrown at me (pun intended), but there are limits. These limits are not imposed by me--they're imposed by the system. Teachers work every day to fix what's broken about our system, but it can't happen overnight, or even over the course of years or decades. What we see in schools is the product of many societal failings, and without fixing at least some of those bigger societal issues, it's probably next to impossible to ever completely fix what's wrong with our schools.

I agree that non-violent students matter. I also buy into the belief that all children are entitled to an education. Do I think that children should be "segregated"? Not really, unless it's what is best for an individual child. Yes, that's going to create conflict when it comes to the other kids. I've long felt frustrated with special ed laws that protect students with special needs while it seems sometimes like everyone else gets left behind as an afterthought. I absolutely see your point, but I feel compelled to point out that these issues are much bigger than an individual teacher or school. It does seem like you think that a teacher can crack the whip a little more and solve all these problems, and I'm telling you straight up that that's not true, not with this big stuff.
 
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Cute ad hominem. My report button is currently missing, but I assure you that I am a real teacher with real students in a real classroom. I administer real tests and assign real grades that really matter in the real world.

Did I run to a country to where I don't have to deal with the students you deal with? No!

Honestly, I'm staggered that this post is allowed to fester on this forum.

Might I suggest that making things personal isn't very professional? We were talking about real issues in real classrooms, and I am somewhat nonplussed as to how the mods allowed such a gross ad hominem to stay while I have been admonished for far far far less.

I think we here in Japan can help those teachers elsewhere, just as others might be able to help teachers who teach in other countries. So far, I've been told that this hurling of chairs and other violence, both against faculty and students, is preferable to a possible alternative.

So be it...
I'm glad you want to help, but most of your posts are typically phrased as personal attacks and repeated complaints about the US system or particular teachers on the forum, with little in the way of useful suggestions to the teachers in question. You might want to re-phrase your tone and address problems in a way that offers solutions for the classroom rather than just disparaging the US educational system and singing praises for the educational system in your country.
 
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In the meantime....

Does anyone have some good books to recommend regarding the most challenging students like the one the OP met and dealt with so well? I need to learn more about these students.
 
But your concerns are with the system! It's not MY choice to allow violent students to remain in my classroom. It's not about ME as an individual teacher maybe needing to consider "a bit more discipline". I have pretty good classroom management and I can handle most things that are thrown at me (pun intended), but there are limits. These limits are not imposed by me--they're imposed by the system. Teachers work every day to fix what's broken about our system, but it can't happen overnight, or even over the course of years or decades. What we see in schools is the product of many societal failings, and without fixing at least some of those bigger societal issues, it's probably next to impossible to ever completely fix what's wrong with our schools.

I agree that non-violent students matter. I also buy into the belief that all children are entitled to an education. Do I think that children should be "segregated"? Not really, unless it's what is best for an individual child. Yes, that's going to create conflict when it comes to the other kids. I've long felt frustrated with special ed laws that protect students with special needs while it seems sometimes like everyone else gets left behind as an afterthought. I absolutely see your point, but I feel compelled to point out that these issues are much bigger than an individual teacher or school. It does seem like you think that a teacher can crack the whip a little more and solve all these problems, and I'm telling you straight up that that's not true, not with this big stuff.

I think much the same. I really do consider myself a "fan" of inclusive classrooms as far as they are appropriate. I also disagree with the idea that the general classrooms is automatically the best or ideal or goal placement for all students (why mourn the fact Little Becky may never be able to survive in a general education classroom when she is thriving and growing in a more specialized classroom?)

The student in question has had many unofficial services (there's no IEP or 504 yet) over the past few years. This is not the student's first crazy outburst in our school. However, it's the first big one this year. Compared to kinder and first, that's a mighty accomplishment for this kid. A plan exists to deal with him and other students. As I said, the kid was immediately removed from my class. I haven't seen him since. And those past outbursts? Also dealt with immediately, consequences given, plans put in place to help with them. A colleague of mine had a much more violent student spend about a month in an one-on-one teaching situation before a feasible behavior unit at another school was found and arranged for the student.

I'm saying that inclusion can be a pretty good thing if a good plan is in place. This abhorance of any situation involving a student acting out is rather backward.
 
But your concerns are with the system! It's not MY choice to allow violent students to remain in my classroom. It's not about ME as an individual teacher maybe needing to consider "a bit more discipline". I have pretty good classroom management and I can handle most things that are thrown at me (pun intended), but there are limits. These limits are not imposed by me--they're imposed by the system. Teachers work every day to fix what's broken about our system, but it can't happen overnight, or even over the course of years or decades. What we see in schools is the product of many societal failings, and without fixing at least some of those bigger societal issues, it's probably next to impossible to ever completely fix what's wrong with our schools.

I agree that non-violent students matter. I also buy into the belief that all children are entitled to an education. Do I think that children should be "segregated"? Not really, unless it's what is best for an individual child. Yes, that's going to create conflict when it comes to the other kids. I've long felt frustrated with special ed laws that protect students with special needs while it seems sometimes like everyone else gets left behind as an afterthought. I absolutely see your point, but I feel compelled to point out that these issues are much bigger than an individual teacher or school. It does seem like you think that a teacher can crack the whip a little more and solve all these problems, and I'm telling you straight up that that's not true, not with this big stuff.

Maybe if more teachers would stand up and refuse to work with violent students, then more things would get done? For example, if every teacher at a school banded together and walked out in protest of students who exhibit violent behavior. There is strength in numbers.
I think much the same. I really do consider myself a "fan" of inclusive classrooms as far as they are appropriate. I also disagree with the idea that the general classrooms is automatically the best or ideal or goal placement for all students (why mourn the fact Little Becky may never be able to survive in a general education classroom when she is thriving and growing in a more specialized classroom?)

The student in question has had many unofficial services (there's no IEP or 504 yet) over the past few years. This is not the student's first crazy outburst in our school. However, it's the first big one this year. Compared to kinder and first, that's a mighty accomplishment for this kid. A plan exists to deal with him and other students. As I said, the kid was immediately removed from my class. I haven't seen him since. And those past outbursts? Also dealt with immediately, consequences given, plans put in place to help with them. A colleague of mine had a much more violent student spend about a month in an one-on-one teaching situation before a feasible behavior unit at another school was found and arranged for the student.

I'm saying that inclusion can be a pretty good thing if a good plan is in place. This abhorance of any situation involving a student acting out is rather backward.

Precisely.
 
Maybe if more teachers would stand up and refuse to work with violent students, then more things would get done? For example, if every teacher at a school banded together and walked out in protest of students who exhibit violent behavior. There is strength in numbers.

It's illegal for teachers to strike in some states.

Even in places where this would be legal, there are some pretty serious logistical issues. Who is teaching the other students, who are once again losing out on instruction because of their violent peers? Which teachers strike over violent students: teachers who have been personally impacted by a particular student's violence, teachers who have witnessed it, teachers who just feel like striking over it? Would it not be equally or more prudent to consider proposing and supporting legislation that addresses school violence? Would either strikes or legislation solve problems of sudden, unexpected violence of the sort we read about in the news ("...but he was such a good kid!")?
 
In the meantime....

Does anyone have some good books to recommend regarding the most challenging students like the one the OP met and dealt with so well? I need to learn more about these students.
Try "Teaching Difficult Students: Blue Jays in the Classroom" by Nicole Gnezda. It's partially anecdotal, but does address a range of problem behaviors and which approaches have shown promise in changing those behaviors.
 
I'm glad you want to help, but most of your posts are typically phrased as personal attacks and repeated complaints about the US system or particular teachers on the forum, with little in the way of useful suggestions to the teachers in question. You might want to re-phrase your tone and address problems in a way that offers solutions for the classroom rather than just disparaging the US educational system and singing praises for the educational system in your country.

Honestly, I don't think you need any help. Practice common sense with empiricism in order to achieve basic pedagogical principles. A safe educational environment is one of those things that are not just nice in theory, but rather a necessity.

One common sense idea seems to me to identify students who endanger that environment, and remove them. Maybe you can try a softer approach with counseling and time outs, or whatever else you can think of. Try those if you must, but if they don't work, then it's back to the drawing board.

I will try not to sound so disparaging in the future, but honestly, I don't see any hope. Every suggestion I come up with is shot back down with "only if you want to be fired" or "I prefer to stay out of prison".

Some have suggested more money being spent on mental health support. Before you do that, you might want to know that there is scant research on the subject of violent behavior. We know that there are two basic kinds which are verbal (give me your money or I shoot!) and physical (bang!), and that this appears to be the result of low self-esteem in the formative years of a child's life. This low self-esteem is temporarily assuaged through violence, which gives a person a momentary feeling of pride.

If it were possible to stop violent people from being violent through mental health support, prisons would have a much lower recidivism rate.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck, and a Merry Christmas!
 
If it were possible to stop violent people from being violent through mental health support, prisons would have a much lower recidivism rate.

Prisons rarely, if ever, give proper mental health support. Sure they have mental health services but they aren't robust, everyone who needs them do not get them or are wrongly diagnosed. The environment exacerbates mental illness. Prisons actually increase mental illness symptoms for many.
 
Prisons rarely, if ever, give proper mental health support. Sure they have mental health services but they aren't robust, everyone who needs them do not get them or are wrongly diagnosed. The environment exacerbates mental illness. Prisons actually increase mental illness symptoms for many.

Yes, I would agree with you. From what I can gather, de-escalating a person exhibiting aggressive behavior without coercive measures takes a lot, so maybe schools with violent students could benefit from having somebody who has that time to give.

This is a paper entitled 'coping with violence in mental health care settings' that gives some real life examples of how staff managed to de-escalate different situations, thus avoiding coercive measures that tend to do more harm than good.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088394171630053X

Maybe some of these techniques, most of which are just communication and treating the patient with respect, might help with violent students. A teacher just doesn't have the time.

My only question is don't your schools already have somebody like this? A special education teacher trained to deal with these students individually might be a workaround.
 
You keep stressing that your plan of action is to remove violent students, stand together and walk out, or physically attack the student, even though many have explained that, in this country, that is not always an option we can use. Knowing that, what other suggestions can you offer?
 
You keep stressing that your plan of action is to remove violent students, stand together and walk out, or physically attack the student, even though many have explained that, in this country, that is not always an option we can use. Knowing that, what other suggestions can you offer?

None, really. Your options are basically to lump it and forget about all that safe educational environment stuff, or find a new career.

I'm guessing you like being a teacher, so I guess there's nothing you can do.
 
My only question is don't your schools already have somebody like this? A special education teacher trained to deal with these students individually might be a workaround.

My school has three.

But you've already suggested having people to remove the violent student, or teach the student in a personal setting away from other students, isn't good enough.
 
My school has three.

But you've already suggested having people to remove the violent student, or teach the student in a personal setting away from other students, isn't good enough.

Certainly not good enough for a school where teachers are responsible for the safety of students. The paper I linked to explains that only a little empirical data on the topic of de-escalation exists, and that successful attempts require a great deal of knowledge such as knowing yourself, the patient/student, understanding the situation, and being able to communicate.

In short, the process of de-escalation is not always successful, nor is there enough known to rely on the various strategies involved. They might work, or they might not. The downsides to being exposed to violent behavior are far too considerable, and our other students too valuable to risk placing in an adverse environment.
 
Certainly not good enough for a school where teachers are responsible for the safety of students. The paper I linked to explains that only a little empirical data on the topic of de-escalation exists, and that successful attempts require a great deal of knowledge such as knowing yourself, the patient/student, understanding the situation, and being able to communicate.

In short, the process of de-escalation is not always successful, nor is there enough known to rely on the various strategies involved. They might work, or they might not. The downsides to being exposed to violent behavior are far too considerable, and our other students too valuable to risk placing in an adverse environment.

So such strategies tailored to an individual student should never be implemented because there is a small chance they might not work?
 
So such strategies tailored to an individual student should never be implemented because there is a small chance they might not work?

At the expense of other students?

No!

Sorry, but here in Japan, we need to provide a safe environment for our students because we are (along with parents and community) tasked with sowing the seeds of a civil society. I realize that this isn't a concern for American teachers, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

We can't deal with violent students in a general education environment because of that basic principle of providing a safe educational environment.

I have come to realize that American teachers don't care about providing that environment, so... we do have our differences of opinion.

edit: I would also add that your usage of the phrase "small chance that they might not work" does not take into account my arguments, as well as the study I linked to takes into account.

You can't say "small chance" when the empirical evidence is scant at best that your methods of dealing with violent students works.

Your incarceration rates as well as violent crime rates, as well as many other metrics, including academic achievement cannot stand the light of day as far as American teachers are concerned.
 
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I misspelled a very simple word the other day on the board. A 10 year old pointed out my typo to me and we all chuckled. She corrected my error without permission to speak. I liked that. I don't know what that is.....a relaxed relationship? Or, the independence of the child? Either way, I wouldn't trade it. Japan has so many wonderful things in their education system. The literary rate is beautiful. But, all systems have pros and cons. You have painted a one sided view of both countries' systems. But, both are much more complicated than basic metrics define.
 
So a child that never gets violent but may lose his cool should not be allowed an opportunity to calm down? A child who gets mildly upset should be banned from school forever?
 
Tell your 2nd graders not to be acting like a bunch of 9th graders. I got hit by a chair/desk when my 9th grade biology lab class exploded! It was not a slow burn - didn't start at one side of the room and burn to the other side. There were lots of racial tensions underlying the quiet classroom when one kid lit the spark saying "Your mother looks like a salamander." It seemed like every single kid all across the room started fighting the kid next to them at the same time.
 
So a child that never gets violent but may lose his cool should not be allowed an opportunity to calm down? A child who gets mildly upset should be banned from school forever?

"A child that never gets violent but may lose his cool"? I think we're talking about completely different situations. If you did that, you'd have to ban every student in the world.

All I'm saying is that schools have a responsibility to make school a safe place for students. How you do that is up to you, so long as you succeed.
 
I think we're talking about completely different situations. If you did that, you'd have to ban every student in the world.

You have made it clear in this thread that any child who shows any potential for violence, any inkling, should not be allowed back into the classroom. So, yes, by your expressed opinion, you would demand any child who lost his cool to be removed forever from the classroom.
 
You have made it clear in this thread that any child who shows any potential for violence, any inkling, should not be allowed back into the classroom. So, yes, by your expressed opinion, you would demand any child who lost his cool to be removed forever from the classroom.

Throwing a chair at a teacher isn't showing a potential for violence, which we all have. That's actual physical violence with a potentially deadly weapon.

This is why I say you are talking about a completely different situation.
 
So a child that never gets violent but may lose his cool should not be allowed an opportunity to calm down? A child who gets mildly upset should be banned from school forever?

This kind of behavior is not mild upset. It is verging on criminal and it seems some teachers are making excuses for the student, which only enables them. When is it ever acceptable to throw a chair at anyone? That’s battery and if someone did this outside of a public school setting they’d be arrested and thrown in the slammer. If someone pushed another person up against a wall and threatened them, then they’d be arrested. Again, not okay.

The fact that public schools allow this at all speaks volumes. There needs to be a strong message sent to students that if they do these things, then there are consequences. I agree with Belch. I don’t care if the student has an IEP or whatever. If a student threatened me and tried to harm me physically in anyway, I would not hesitate to defend myself and call the police on them. Period.
 
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I'm not a member of fight club, so it works.

Does yours?

Having professionals on campus who immediately respond to violent issues and have procedures in place for such incidents so I'm not expected to deal with it on my own?

Yes, it works beautifully. It's a great system.

And a heck of a lot better than a victim-blaming system that scolds me for not being powerful enough to take on in a fight any student.
 
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This kind of behavior is not mild upset. It is verging on criminal and it seems some teachers are making excuses for the student, which only enables them. When is it ever acceptable to throw a chair at anyone? That’s battery and if someone did this outside of a public school setting they’d be arrested and thrown in the slammer. If someone pushed someone another person up against a wall and threatened them, then they’d be arrested. Again, not okay.

The fact that public schools allow this at all speaks volumes. There needs to be a strong message sent to students that if they do these things, then there are consequences. I agree with Belch. I don’t care if the student has an IEP or whatever. If a student threatened me and tried to harm me physically in anyway, I would not hesitate to defend myself and call the police on them. Period.

When the hell did I ever say this incident was treated as acceptable?
 
When the hell did I ever say this incident was treated as acceptable?

Not you, per se, but that seems to be the general consensus in this thread. It doesn’t matter if the violent student poses a threat to the safety of other students and staff alike, they have a “right” to learn regardless of their unacceptable behavior.
 
Not you, per se, but that seems to be the general consensus in this thread. It doesn’t matter if the violent student poses a threat to the safety of other students and staff alike, they have a “right” to learn regardless of their unacceptable behavior.

They do have the right to learn. In a healthy system, they'd likely be learning in different circumstances than the typical as-it-was classroom, but yeah, they have that right. It takes a lot in the U.S. to have a student completely banned from the public school system. I think that's good. Alternative school, home-bound learning... all are likely better than having the offender on the street during the school day.
 
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