Teachers who cannot maintain Order, will be let go?

Discussion in 'Behavior Management' started by Bio612, Oct 14, 2008.

  1. Bio612

    Bio612 Rookie

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    Oct 14, 2008

    I just started an accelerated course in Teacher Certification. Basically, anyone with a BS or BA Degree, can become a cert. teacher (if you have the right amt of credits)

    Anyhow, I was speaking with a teacher, and he stated that most teachers are asked NOT to return to the school, MAINLY due to the fact that they simply could not control their students.

    Does this happen a lot? Any input, because to be honest...I have very little experience with kids when it comes to this.

    I am just someone who is going through a career change from the workforce (due to lack of work) in hopes to find a more secure position that's high in demand (teaching).

    And this Accelerated program apparently is meant for just anyone (with a BS or BA). But if I don't have such experience with children...this could be a problem?

    Do you think only a year, to get used to the job, is not long?
     
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  3. synapse

    synapse Comrade

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    Why do you want to become a teacher?

    If you "don't have such experience with children," how certain are you of your answer?

    If it is simply to find a secure job, an accelerated program will put you in a classroom fast.

    If you are genuinely interested in children, the art and science of teaching and learning, and a career change that will be long term, my opinion is that an accelerated program will place you in a disadvantageous position.

    Teaching is hard work. It takes intense training and a lot of practice to do well. I would look for a program that provides actual experiences with children as you prepare to become a certified teacher. That way you will be able to assess whether or not this is for you.

    Every teacher's first year on the job is a challenge. I would not be an advocate of releasing a teacher after one year (unless there were serious issues). However, better preparation for that first year, will allow you to be both more successful then and into the future.
     
  4. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    In a word...yes. Teaching is not simply telling what you know.

    What area? Because this high in demand you speak of...not always true.

    No. You have 9 months to "get used" to the job, then it changes, because you have a whole new group of students.
     
  5. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

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    Every teacher that I know who hasn't been offered a position the following year has been let go for lack of behavior management skills. These are most definitely skills that must be learned, and most accelerated programs don't focus on them. That puts you at a huge disadvantage in being able to control a classroom.

    The "teacher shortage" is one of the biggest current myths in this country. There are very specific subject areas and geographical areas that DO need teachers, but, on the whole, the teaching market is saturated. One of the few areas I know where you still have a good chance of getting ajob is secondary math and science...in the inner city, and that's where those behavior management skills are most critical.

    That said, I did not follow the traditional path into teaching at the secondary level. I got my current job when a former student (community college) called asking if I'd be interested in taking over a classroom until her P could find a "real" teacher. I was hesitatant because, while I'd been teaching for 5 years at a CC, I had NO experience with kids. I took the job because the P was desperate, really just wanting somebody with a heartbeat infront of that room, but I made sure she knew that I had no intention of staying long term. This, of course, is a middle school math job in the inner city. Well, long story short, sometimes life suprises us. I was lucky in that much of my instinct for classroom management worked very well with this particular age (and "type") of kid. It could have been very bad if that were not the case.

    If I was in your shoes, looking at making this type of switch, I would do more research. Maybe you could volunteer at a school or get a job as a sub to get a feel for what a classroom really demands of you. I would also reccomend several good books for learning about classroom management. My two favorites are "Love and Logic" and "The first days of School".
     
  6. catsos2

    catsos2 Companion

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    Oct 14, 2008

    I also completed an accelerated teaching certification program. I had a BFA in painting/drawing and am now a first year art teacher. I don't believe that all teachers need the extensive education courses offered to undergrads. Many career changers have a lot to offer because it's what we want to do, we are driven, and our life and workplace experience prepares us to be leaders in the classroom.

    BUT in a word, YES your inexperience working with children will hurt you. Not only when you are in you classroom, but it also may make it difficult to find a job. Administrators like to hire people with some kind of experience. If the last time you were in a classroom was as a high school student, it is likely that not only finding and keeping a job but also keeping your sanity will be a problem :)

    My advice: start substitute teaching immediately. The money is crap and it's not always consistent work - so it is hard to bite the bullet and make that step. BUT if you make some connections with schools and get some experience with the kids under your belt you will find it easier to get and keep a job. In the summer, find a job as a camp counselor or if you are certified, try to start teaching summer school.

    I subbed from Dec - April and then got a six week substitute position with a school that I subbed at fairly regularly. As it happens, my assistant principal at that school worked for years with my new principal and THAT is what got me the job. A great reference and experience.

    Other perks to subbing - you can create your own schedule. If you are a great sub and get call backs you can take them. If you find a school or class that you can't stand, just don't go back. Easy Peasy. Also, you can figure out what age groups you like - I thought I would love high school best, but went back and found it depressing (like when I was in it...). Now I'm in elementary and am loving it.

    Finally, all teachers have problems with classroom management at first. I am lucky that I have a supportive administration and have communicated to them that I want to learn from whoever is available. It's a learning process. Make sure that your administration knows that you are open to suggestions and want to continue to learn.
     
  7. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Oct 14, 2008

    I'm not sure how I feel about a program like this if anyone can get into as long as they have a bachelors degree.

    A teacher has to have good classroom management skills in order to engage their students enough to learn the curriculum. And yes, principals will probably not ask you back if the management skills are lacking. If you have a good administration then they will help you throughout the year, but if they don't see improvement, then they will probably get someone in there who can management the classroom.


    This is a myth! There is not a country wide teaching shortage in all areas. In inner city, yes; math, science, yes; special ed, yes; in some areas of the country, yes; but not everywhere. I would definitely look at schools around you.

    The lack of experience with children will definitely hurt you, especially if you are up against other candidates that have the same credentials as you, but if one has experience working with children in any capacity, they will be the preferred candidate.
     
  8. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Oct 14, 2008

    Ditto.:whistle:
     
  9. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Oct 14, 2008

     
  10. Bio612

    Bio612 Rookie

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    I beg to differ. Florida is a state (perhaps it's saturated in other states) that's in need of teachers. Esp in the Sciences and Maths, there is a high need(I signed up for sciences).

    In fact, as far as I know, it's the only state that reciprocates ALL 50 other states, meaning that if you move to Florida, there's no pre-reqs to consider.

    The program is known as the EPI program. At the end of the program, you do some interning at the end as well, where you get some experience teaching in front of students.

    I've been reading, "Qualities of Effective Teachers" textbook, and it's pretty interesting.

    It was stated by the Dean, that pretty much every teacher that graduated from the accelerated course was hired on almost immediately.
     
  11. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

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    Oct 14, 2008

    Perhaps you noticed that the one of the people responding is from Florida, and is saying the exact same thing as the rest? Florida has a HUGE teacher SURPLUS in all areas except secondary math and science, which has been stated as the exception. There were even sped teachers surplussed in Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Duval, and Orange counties (that I know of). Palm Beach recently lifted a hiring freeze, and while Dade and Broward aren't technically in a freeze, there are MANY positions that aren't being posted for lack of funds to pay for them. Schools are doing without. My classes are as large as 46 students, and I'm just one teacher.

    Deans will say lots of things that aren't true to recruit students. If they're only offering secondary math and science, that might be true...but WHERE are they being hired. That's a key question to ask. Do you really want to work for Miami Edison or Miami Jackson or Homestead Highs? My middle school feeds into one of those three, and I can tell you that this job isn't for everybody. I've been physically attacked, verbally abused, and just yesterday, spat at....by middle schoolers. Can you deal with that? It seems to me that you've been fed a rosy picture that just isn't true.
     
  12. each1teach1

    each1teach1 Cohort

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    well, one of the things you have to remember is that this is one of the only jobs where you'll be completely in charge from day one. Would you be allowed to join a fortune 500 company fresh out of college and given free reign, only meeting with your superiors once a month and only given an indication of your progress every six weeks? Heck no!! But that's basically what happens in teaching. It's getting a little better with the development of teacher mentoring programs, increase in professional developments and an increased awareness of the market for classroom management techniques and strategies and what not, but you're still basically on your own for day 1. That's why classroom management is so important. So if you're in a program that doesn't focus on it, you're doing yourself a disservice and putting yourself behind on an already freakishly steep learning curve.
     
  13. EMonkey

    EMonkey Connoisseur

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    Oct 14, 2008

    Every teacher I have talked to that came into teaching with an emergency credential and basically no training said how stressful and hard it was. Teaching careers have the highest leaving rate, starting with no training rises the amount of people who leave.
     
  14. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    Teachers who are in an actual program and go through student teaching still find the first year TOUGH!!! Will you be able to student teach? I seriously suggest subbing. And definately read the following books:
    Love and Logic
    First Day of School by Harry Wong
    and Tools for Teaching by Fred Jones

    Also, read up on much of the threads on this site about classroom management and ideas. You will need to come up with a good plan that covers rules, rewards, consequences, procedures, etc. It's so tough being a teacher. This is my fourth year and I am still changing things up and trying new techniques out. Yes, teachers will be let go if they cannot control their class. There is not a teacher shortage for elementary teaching positions. If you cannot handle it, then they will get someone else. That's why all new teachers are on probation for two years (or more in some states??). That way, they can see if you will work out. If not, they can non-reelect you, no questions asked. They won't even tell you why you are not being asked back! They don't have to!! Good luck! It's a tough career, but can be so rewarding too once you get the hang of it.
     
  15. sunflower1010

    sunflower1010 New Member

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    I hope you aren't wanting to be a teacher because of the job stability. There really isn't much.

    I would recommend getting as much exposure to classroom management as possible.

    As a resource teacher, I was occassionally in a middle school math classroom of a teacher who had no management skills. The resource aide was often not able to tell me what homework was assigned or what was learned in the class, because the behavior was out of control. I really felt bad for the students who struggled, because there was little to no learning happening.
     
  16. Kteacher06

    Kteacher06 Companion

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    I agree with most of the folks who already posted, but I also wanted to add that Florida does not have 100% reciprocity with all 50 states. I moved there from Massachusetts with a valid teaching certificate and they said I could get a Florida teaching license...after taking several of their classes.
     
  17. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    We really just want you to be careful: college teacher education programs have a lot to gain by proclaiming that there's a teacher shortage-- it helps keep their programs full. People here and elsewhere, actually looking for jobs, have had differing experiences than what they were told in college.

    As to "science" majors: every wannabe doctor who didn't get into medical school can easily qualify to teach biology. The shortage areas are chemistry and physics.

    I hope we're all wrong and that those who make a living teaching potential teachers are right. I just don't see how that makes sense.
     
  18. Bio612

    Bio612 Rookie

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    Well, I live in Central FL, and I would think I'd get a job in this area. Chances are, I'll be getting a job in the surrounding counties. They encouraged me to go with the "High Need" subject areas, which is Math and Science, which I did.

    Though, I heard of the hiring freezes and the like....I'd figure this is just a passing thing, and will go back to the way things were. I am doing this certificate as an option to me not getting a great job in my current (Environmental/Biological field).
     
  19. MATgrad

    MATgrad Groupie

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    I am located on the nature coast of Florida. I'm certified Elementary K-6, ESE K-12 and ESOL endorsed. I have a master's degree and am still looking for a position. Heck I'm on the recall list for my last district.

    The budget crisis is real. Districts are very close to declaring financial emergency. There have been lay-offs, salary freezes and even salary cuts. Without experience, you will NOT get a job. Even ESE positions are getting a high number of applicants that are experienced. I have been on many interviews where Principals have told me close to 200 people applied.

    This is the market you are entering and no it is not going to go away. The state has told schools to expect another 2% cut in funding. School districts revenues are tied to property taxes. House values fall and taxes go down. My taxes dropped by half this year because my home lost $30,000 in value. Enrollment has not decreased as large as expected so we have the same number of students but less money to service them.

    As far as alternative certification goes, a few years ago it was true that most people would get a position. Today however I can tell you that many Principals will not consider Alternative Certification and that there is even a district that won't even look at you without an education degree. They have enough education applicants even for Science, math and ESE to fill their needs.

    Many very smart people are just trying to warn you. That's all. It's so disheartening to hear of people who dared to dream only to find their dreams crushed because they weren't able to see the forest from the trees.
     
  20. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    And unfortunately this is most students in education programs.
     
  21. missalli

    missalli Companion

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    Definitely for me the biggest challenge has always been the behavior management. My last principal told me I wasn't 'mean enough' (I was teaching Kinders, but, well, anyway...) When it comes right down to it, though, if you're constantly putting out fires you can't teach, and so you have to have a system to keep the fires from springing up in the first place.

    It amuses me to hear that people are still using the old 'teacher shortage' story when I have seen so many teachers on this board having little to no luck finding a position. As far as the economy and it's impact on district budgets goes, I fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better.
     
  22. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    The "amusing" part is that the only ones claiming that there's a teacher shortage are people teaching education courses. They're the ones who will be out of jobs once people realize how incredibly difficult it is to find a teaching job in many parts of the country. So they perpetuate the myth.

    And just about everyone I know has had their pensions drastically cut over the past few weeks. My plastic surgeon said last week that his hopes to retire in 2 or 3 years are shot because of the economy.

    So I'm not looking for this to be a banner year for teachers to retire either. And I'm guessing that a lot of local budgets won't pass, so don't look for expansion in hiring.

    Hang on to your hats, folks. We're in for a bumpy ride!
     
  23. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

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    It doesn't matter what you know if you do not have the ability to manage a classroom . . . and that goes for procedures, student behavior, and the day-to-day non-teaching "stuff" that goes along with it.

    In the grand scheme of things, "teaching" is actually a small part of my day.

    Now, classroom management is one of the things that we consider in interviews, and teachers have been placed on improvement plans because of their management struggles.

    Naturally nobody actually expects you to know everything going into a profession, but a willingness to learn and plan is a big part of it. Sometiems I hear people complain about behavior and performance of students, but then they never do anything to change what THEY are doing in the classroom.
     
  24. lemonhead

    lemonhead Aficionado

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    I so agree with that. It is all the junk on my plate that sometimes makes me lose consistency. No matter how hard I try to get something in, its the administrative stuff getting in my way of just teaching.
     
  25. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Yet, yery often, those same problem kids will behave for another teacher. Sometimes I think teachers need to be more flexible in their approaches-- talk to others in the building about what works and what doesn't work with a particular child.

    Not EVERY teacher in a building is being let go. So it stands to reason that some are having success, even with the more difficult kids. I think that teachers who struggle need to tap into that wonderful resource that so many are afraid of: a chat with another teacher in the faculty room over a cup of coffee (or in my case, tea.)

    When I was department chair, one of the new teachers in my department had a brutal first year. She had a really tough, obnoxious group of kids-- one class in particular-- and she struggled with classroom management. In fact, the ONLY thing that saved her job that year is that she asked and asked, and tried every single piece of advice that anyone gave her.

    We were laughing about it last night at dinner (we get provided dinner on nights when we have parent conferences.) It's been probably 12 years since her first years, and she's now one of the strong teachers in our department. She's merged all those pieces of advice from seasoned teachers into a style that works for her.
     
  26. Giggles1100

    Giggles1100 Comrade

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    I don't know what field you are going into in teaching, but I ditto what the others are saying about a surplus and people in Texas Coming out of the accelerated programs are being told they will have jobs and they don't get them, so in order to get jobs they get their certification in SPecial Ed to get their foot in the door, because most schools need Special Ed teachers, but I will say this is horrible, because we get teachers who have no experience with SPED students and wind up not getting contracts renewed and still cannot find a job not to mention the headache it is for the other teachers that have to deal with them. I wish you the best of luck and do w ant to urge you to do some subbing or if you can get a TEachers Aide position for a year to watch other teachers and how they manage their classroms and to make ABSOLUTELY positive this is where you want to be, if teaching is not a fit for you, it can cause you to become depressed, moody and just make you dread getting out of bed and that is no fun at all.
     
  27. RainStorm

    RainStorm Phenom

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    Bio,
    There are teacher shortages in some parts of Florida, but huge surpluses in other parts. Please do no rely on "the statistics" that a teacher prep program offers -- or even that is posted on many websites right now -- because if you read the data carefully, you will find they are using figures rom 2003 and 2004. That is when Florida had the mandatory class size reduction act -- which created lots of openings. However, since the ecomony plummeted, this has gone by the wayside, and many places in Florida have surpluses of certified teachers. Teachers aren't retiring -- so those jobs aren't available. Often, when a teacher moves, the position is consolidated rather than replaced.

    May I suggest that you post a thread in the job seekers or general education section of this forum asking for any teachers from the city (or county) where you are interested in teaching to let you know exactly what the job picture looks like there. These are the people who know that School A is short 4 teachers, or that their district just laid-off 14 new teachers due to budget cuts. They may also provide you with some valuable insight -- such as in some areas it is easy to get a job with an alternative certifications, but did you know that in some places they won't even consider a candidate with an AC?

    In my neck of the woods, I live in a major metro area, and there are 3 cities here that absolutely refuse to even consider AC candidates. Of course, 2 of them are the most desireable districts -- so many people who get the AC credentials are shocked to find out that their 1st and 2nd choice districts won't even interview them.

    That may or may not be the case for you -- my point is just this -- talk to some local teachers who know what the job market is like and listen to what they say. Ask them how many new teachers were hired at their school this year, how many of them were AC candidates and how many were traditional candidates. That information will help you gauge the actual need in the districts were you are interested in teaching.

    I know at our school, we hired 9 new teachers this year. One was an AC candidate (and he knew somebody)...however, we lost him during class reduction, so he was involuntarily transfered to another school and another grade level in October. He was the first AC candidate we had ever hired -- even though there are three universities pumping them out here in our area. (And again, he knew sombody.. so that was probably the reason....)

    A to Z people tend to be really helpful, so make sure and take advantage of the chance to get some real insight from people who are actually doing the job you want in the area where you want to work.

    Good luck!
     

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