Teachers - The Use 'em up, Throw 'em Away Work Force

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by teacherman1, Jan 7, 2014.

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  1. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Mar 21, 2014

    1) I have several teaching friends who work in charter and private schools who were recruited to their current place of employment; because they were so highly sought after, the schools gave them several years credit on the scale they use for employee compensation without having actually taught for those years. They NEGOTIATED their own wage based on their value to employers in the market. That's how a healthy labor market works; education's labor market has been completely warped in an unnatural manner for decades.

    2) I'm going to go ahead and ask you to prove the causal relationship that you just claimed. Causal, not correlative; you chose your words.
     
  2. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Mar 21, 2014

    There are quite a few majors from which there are may more graduates ready to hire than there are jobs....mass media, fine arts, education, liberal arts come to mind. Ed majors are well advised to know the realities of the market....tight budgets, unfounded mandates, New tenure and evaluation procedures....but bottom line, many of us still choose to follow our passion.
     
  3. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    Mar 21, 2014

    Last time I checked 25th out of 50 is NOT "the lowest in the country." Virginia may not be the best, but it's weak to claim it's because we're non-union.
     
  4. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    No, next we have to gauge whether you have the ability to distinguish between correlative and causal arguments. So far, the answer is a resounding, "No, he does not."
     
  5. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Mar 21, 2014

    Try to bear in mind that I did not write the article, HT. Please address your criticism to them, not me.

    This article was from 2011, so maybe things have changed, and my main purpose for posting the article was to point out which states do not have unions, not what their test scores were.
     
  6. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    The commentary belongs to you and the link was posted in the context of this discussion by you; any criticisms should rightly be leveled at you as the agent who posted the content in this discussion.
     
  7. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    Mar 21, 2014

    In addition, I just looked up some salary scales for teachers in Colorado- the state ranked #1 on that list. I make more in my non-union district than I would there. So, I don't think unions= better schools.
     
  8. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Not sure what list you're looking at…..
    The article lists the 5 states where unions are outlawed.
    And I don't necessarily think that unions=better schools either. We agree on that point, HVA.
     
  9. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    The article admits in the very first paragraph that it is using old data and then puts into evidence new data which shows that Virginia, one of the 5 states that outlawed unions is ranked 25 out of 50. In addition, it provides the source of its data in a link to ACT and SAT scores for all 50 states and ranks them accordingly. Colorado is ranked #1. Virginia is #25, only .1 in scores lower than the national average.

    Since your second statement implied that schools in union states must pay more, which then factors into why their scores are higher, I looked up the pay scales of the #1 state.

    I used information from the source you provided. Did you give the article more than a cursory glance before posting it?
     
  10. ScienceEd

    ScienceEd Companion

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    so is the pay compared to other states pay before or after the union fees are taken out?
     
  11. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    That would be an interesting question to be answered via research; I suspect most of the additional pay unions "earn" for their members are returned to union leadership, making them nothing more than rent-seekers like other lobbyist groups.
     
  12. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    In Rhode Island, as far as I know and have always been told, public charter schools match pay with the unionized public schools in the state. They don't pay more (to my knowledge).

    The main reason our profession makes decent wages and benefits is because of the strong(er) unions in our state. Without them, it's a pretty sure thing that the wages/benefits would plummet.

    So indirectly, doesn't that mean that the Charter School teachers are reaping the benefits of the union's work? And what would happen if the unions were suddenly out of the picture?
     
  13. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Mar 22, 2014

    You are, again, making a causal argument with nothing to back it up. That seems to be the theme of your participation on this thread.
     
  14. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Mar 22, 2014

    I think TFA started touting its reputation because it was getting blasted by the profession and starting to get blasted by the public, much like teachers are now getting blasted by a subset of the public.

    Look at the in the defense of teacher articles in the papers and the lengths that are made to claim worth. I think that TFA was just able to present better arguments than many of the arguments made in current articles to defend the teaching profession.


    TFA was able to back up their claim without looking whining. It was surgical in precision and didn't mix "poor me" in the argument at all which is why the arguments looked more credible. They were also masters at backing up every example they put out there with data to prove their point.

    With anything, it is all about good messaging. That is why TFA was able to be successful.
     
  15. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    This gives much more credibility to TFA when the school could have an endless stream of new teachers that are equal or better than the ones that are permanent. In a school like that, should we really see TFA as a bad thing when the administration or school board won't fix what's broke.

    Bet if you ask the permanent teachers if they do a good job, they will all tell you they are outstanding. Bet their reviews say they are too.
     
  16. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Isn't it hypocritical to post rankings that come from testing when you don't believe in the accuracy of standardized testing?

    I would think since you abhor it so much you wouldn't try to draw any conclusions from it because you claim it isn't accurate.
     
  17. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    Mar 22, 2014

    If we want to play the correlation game it works both ways. California is one the highest paying, strongest union states in the nation and our achievement scores are awful.

    It is also hypocritical to correlate test scores with unionization/pay when seemingly 90% of the threads on this board devolve into the claim that test scores are strictly a result of poverty.
     
  18. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    What do you think the scores would look like in California (and the whole country, for that matter) if we could simply not count the scores of high poverty school districts?

    Let's take my state for example: Here's a chart of all of the school districts in my state and a rating of best to worst The five or six districts on the bottom of the chart are the areas with highest poverty - yet they account for close to half of the school-age population of the state.

    If you ignored those six districts, our state would look damned good.....
     
  19. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I wonder what they would look like if parents stopped re-teaching, hiring tutors, and doing a number of other things that boost the performance of their children making it seem that all middle class and upper class schools are doing a fabulous job teaching.

    I wonder if parents just provided a set time and place for homework and allowed kids to do the work based on what they come home from school knowing if we would really see which schools are cutting the muster and which ones are really being propped up by parents with education or money.

    I know not all schools place huge burdens of education on the parents. Some really believe it is their job to teach academics and the parents job just to support it by giving time and space for homework and caring about education, but I know there are many schools that are expecting parents to spend long hours working on academics with their children in the evening.
     
  20. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    This, and everything else pay related, is really on a state-to-state basis. In Maryland the pay for teachers is exceptionally high compared to the national average despite this being a Union state and having to pay Union dues.

    I work in one of the (if not the) lowest performing districts in the state, but thanks to a new contract negotiated by our Union (God Bless them!) we are one of the highest paying districts in the state. This is my 6th year and I'm making over 60K. Yet, when I lived in TN, there were districts were you could work your whole dang life and never make more than 60K because the pay-scale topped out at 60K. That was it. You could work 30, 40 years and still not make more than that. :eek:
     
  21. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    Mar 23, 2014

    I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here. If your point was that teacher pay has little to do with student performance I will absolutely agree with you.

    I suspect that was not your point but that is what I take from your post as written.
     
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