# Teacher turnover

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by 2ndTimeAround, Mar 15, 2014.

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Mar 16, 2014

Florida's system is essentially a muli-faceted regression analysis utilizing both the linear regression formulas and logistics regression methodology. It takes into account the variables mentioned in the blurb below that are shown to be highly correlated to student performance (I don't expect you to read this because you've shown repeatedly that your beliefs on policy are irrationally grounded in ideology and exclude evidence that support anything other than those ideologies):

4. Specific Model Variants Estimated and Considered by the SGIC

The SGIC wanted to evaluate the impact of four potential modeling decisions:

•What is the impact of including two prior years of achievement rather than one prior year of achievement?

•What is the impact of estimating the common school component (school effect) within the teacher value-added model?

•What is the impact of including different subsets of covariates?

•How do the more complex covariate adjustment models compare with the difference model?

One of the SGIC’s critical endeavors involved identifying the covariates to include in the model (question 3). We discuss this below, followed by a description of the model variants estimated, evaluated, and presented to the SGIC.

4.1 Selection of Covariates to Include in the Model

VAMs are designed to mitigate the influence of differences among students in teachers’ entering classes. Covariates intend to “level the playing field” so that schools and teachers do not have advantages or disadvantages simply as a result of the students who attend a school or are assigned to a class.

The most important control, theoretically and empirically, is prior student achievement scores. Students are not randomly sorted into schools or classroom. There are significant differences across schools and classrooms in the entering proficiency of students. A variety of mechanisms contribute to this phenomenon, including parent selection of schools and teachers; teacher selection of schools, subjects, and sections; and principal discretion in assigning certain students to certain teachers.

Unbiased estimates of teacher value-added do not require random assignment of students into classrooms. Instead, the effects of selection are mitigated when factors included in the model are those that (a) are not accounted for by pretest scores and (b) are associated with posttest scores after controlling for pretest scores.
The 2011 Florida legislature explicitly prohibited using the variables gender, race/ethnicity, and socioeconomic status in the model and suggested that variables such as Students with Disabilities status, English language learner status, and attendance be considered.
At the April 4 and 5 SGIC meeting at the University of Central Florida, the SGIC generated a list of potential variables for discussion. At the meeting, it was determined that specific student characteristics, including Students with Disabilities (SWD) status, gifted status, English language learner (ELL) status, and attendance, would be evaluated in these models as determined and defined by the SGIC. Several additional variables were discussed on an April 14 SGIC webinar that resulted in the inclusion of class size, age, mobility, school effect, and homogeneity of class.

When considering variables for inclusion in the model, the SGIC used the following framework to guide the discussion:
• Data are available and accurate.
• Discussion on variable inclusion:
o Is it in the teacher’s control?
o Is it measured already by another variable?
o Is it explained by pretest data?
• Possible definitions

Below is a list of variables considered and approved by the SGIC that were included in the value-added models.

• Students with Disabilities (SWD) status
• English language learner (ELL) status
• Attendance
• Mobility
• Difference from modal age in grade (as an indicator of retention)
• Class size
• Homogeneity of entering test scores in the class
• School effect

Below is a list of variables considered by the SGIC that were excluded from the value-added models:

• Response to Intervention (RTI) level (a method of early academic intervention to assist struggling students)
• Foster care status
• Rural schools
• Homework
• Teacher attendance
• Teacher experience
• Migrant status
• Homeless status
• Availability of resources
• Course complexity
• Discipline and referral action

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Mar 16, 2014

You're mistaken because only one variable then impacts your salary; your place on the step schedule.

If only 40% of one's pay is based on VAM, yet one claims that their salary is determined by VAM, they're ignoring the fact that 60% of their pay is based on other things (most likely observations, years of service, and education, the latter two have been proven to have little to no effect on teacher efficacy).

I digress; respond to the post above. If you'd like me to send you the white paper from which that data was pulled, it's saved on my hard drive. I have, in fact, done extensive research on Florida's VAM.

3. ### gr3teacherPhenom

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Mar 16, 2014

So do you feel Florida is justified in the way they evaluate first year kindergarten teachers, or PE teachers?

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Mar 16, 2014

I'd like a response to my post's content.

5. ### gr3teacherPhenom

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Mar 16, 2014

And I'D like a response to the actual point being made; that teachers are being paid and evaluated based on students they have never taught.

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Mar 16, 2014

Are you advocating more standardized testing? That will make you rather unpopular on this board, I'd imagine.

Regardless, what issue do you take with the model posted above and its variables?

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Mar 16, 2014

I don't want to get into a debate, but VAM scores in FL can vary by(district) county( which students count, which test, percents, other variables, etc.) Also, many of the tests used for the scores are not proctored....enough said. It is not a "perfect" system.

8. ### gr3teacherPhenom

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Mar 16, 2014

I take issue with the fact that it doesn't account for kindergarten teachers or PE teachers, I take issue with the fact that it uses a single post test data source, and I take issue with the fact that entire schools are having every single teacher rated as ineffective based on students that don't even attend that school.

You're the one who brought up poverty from unrelated points in the articles I posted.

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Mar 16, 2014

You're responsible for what you post:

"Andy Ford, president of the Florida Education Association, said the value-added system has major flaws, such as not accounting for student poverty and not having a reliable system for ensuring teachers’ scores are based on the students they actually taught."

The question isn't whether VAM are perfect; the question is whether VAM are better than historical teacher evaluation and compensation programs that based pay and retention solely on years of service and education, neither of which are correlated with student achievement.

The people complaining about single data points being used in retention decisions didn't have a problem with single data points being used when that data point was a yearly observation, did they? The simple fact is that people don't want to be held accountable at their jobs, so instead of trying to fix a system that can provide an insight into the actual impacts teachers have, they trash the system, sit on their hands, and rant about how unfair the world is.

10. ### gr3teacherPhenom

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Mar 16, 2014

I can't speak to the "single evaluation" point. My evaluation has never been based on fewer than 8 drop-in observations.

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Mar 16, 2014

But who's to say you didn't have "8 bad days!" After all, teachers have at least 25-30 students taking those tests; the argument that one student may have a "bad day" is made all the time in refutation of using that data for accountability. I have over 125 students taking the ECA this year; should I still get to use that excuse?

12. ### RockguykevConnoisseur

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Mar 16, 2014

This topic specifically referred to the "anti-teacher climate" as the reason for the turnover. All three things you mentioned are, at best, loosely tied to that alleged climate. They are a direct result of budget issues nationwide due to the economy. The post was obviously a reference to the political climate.

And yes, if you can't handle that, you should move on.

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Mar 16, 2014

Going back to the OP, I think teacher turnover will be high in my school this year. There is a new principal at my school this year. Many teachers there had never taught under anyone else other than the principal who left last summer. So as a result of those changes I think my building turnover will be high.

I don't think that turnover will be because of the politics in teaching though. In fact, many believe my area will have many teachers applying because of the politics involved in education. I work within 10 miles of the border of North Carolina and benefits in my state are much better than a teacher would experience in NC.

14. ### JerseygirlteachGroupie

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Mar 16, 2014

Teacher turnover is low in my district. For the most part, teachers are treated with respect and fairness. I do worry about layoffs due to a budget issue, so if there's any significant turnover, it will be because of that I am sure. A small number of teachers are nonrenewed each year and a small number retire, but other than that, most are happy and don't jump ship.

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Mar 16, 2014

It's pretty low here... I don't know of anyone who has left the profession early other than retirement. Our school has the principal and a fifth grade teacher both retiring this year, but both are well past retirement age. Last year we also had a teacher work a year or two beyond retirement age, going back seven years, there was an early retirement because of health issues, but that's all I really see.

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Mar 16, 2014

I think next year will be interesting. Our school has to lay off about 15 teachers. but we know it won't be anyone from our department. We do have 2 teachers in my department who are seriously talking about leaving. One would be a loss, but I'd be thrilled if the other left. So.. mixture of good news and bad news, I guess.

17. ### Peregrin5Maven

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Mar 16, 2014

Thanks Honest. To be honest myself, yes it does irritate me, but I can see the reasoning for this type of system. One of the main factors that predicts the effectiveness of a teacher is experience, and I unfortunately don't have much of it.

I'm hoping that by the virtue of being a good teacher and my principal taking note of that fact and saying that she'll fight for my position, I can be secure in knowing that I have a job next year. The truth is, I can think of some scenarios in which she won't have any choice (i.e. if one of the other schools in the district doesn't have enough enrollment and they have to transfer a more experienced teacher in for my position).

18. ### MsMarFanatic

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Mar 16, 2014

This is my third year at my school (6th in the district) and in the past two years only 1 person left my school for anything other than retirement. I will say of the 4 people who retired last year, 2 definitely did it due to frustrations with the profession and probably would have stayed on another 1-3 years if things were better. This year we only have two people retiring, our nurse and one teacher. I guess I won't know until we come back to school in the fall if anyone decided to leave over the summer.

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Mar 16, 2014

Most studies show that experience only improves student achievement/teacher efficacy up until the 3rd-5th year, and it plateaus beyond that point. That is, of course, not to say that there aren't younger teachers with only a year or two of experience who are better than their peers with a decade of experience.

It sounds as if you won't have a problem keeping your job, but if you need to hit the market, a glowing recommendation from your principal should make finding another position relatively easy.

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Mar 16, 2014

I could picture the older teachers in P's district dancing around and singing "Last in, First out, Turn yourself about, Last in, First out, Let's all scream and shout!"

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Mar 16, 2014

Not sure about my district, but no one has kept my position for more than 3 years since they made it 9 classes a day. I am the 3rd art teacher my 4th graders have had since kindergarten and I'll be leaving if I get another offer... You'd think the district would realize we are all leaving because of the unrealistic work load but nope!

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Mar 16, 2014

My sister is an art teacher and less than 5 years from retirement. At her current school, she is assigned daily bus duty morning and afternoon, 6 cafeteria duties a week, and must cover grade level teachers' classes whenever they have grade level meetings. This causes her to lose her planning period. Of course, there are no meetings for fine arts teachers. In fact, her last principal told her that she knew that "art is very important, but you are really here to give the classroom teachers a break." If she doesn't lose her mind before retirement, I will be very surprised.

23. ### gr3teacherPhenom

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Mar 16, 2014

As a certified music teacher, the idea of an art (or music, or PE) teacher being there "just to give the classroom teachers a break" is just a terrible viewpoint, ESPECIALLY in the 21st century where we should be putting such an emphasis on creativity. And that's ignoring the research showing the "academic" benefit to studying music and art.