Teacher Slams Scripted Common Core Lessons That Must Be Taught "Word For Word"

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by teacherman1, Mar 14, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ScienceEd

    ScienceEd Companion

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 14, 2014

    The parents can ask the students to be retested instead of having them repeat 3rd grade. they can also ask for summer school intervention (which they will probably have to pay for out of pocket) or teach their kids themselves in the summer to catch them up to grade level and be retested at the beginning of the next school year to be placed in the grade they are suppose to be in.

    Like many things, its up to the parents to advocate for their children.

    It may not be commonly appreciated but sometimes it is better if a child does not know how to read that they repeat the grade.

    there is nothing worst than having a high schooler who has the reading comprehension level of a third grader, without being identified with any learning disability or any intervention made for them.

    interventions are suppose to help the student succeed later in life. not just create social strain.

    personally I would want my child to have intensive intervention if they didn't pass the State reading test.

    However, i've found that sometimes the parents need help learning how to enforce good study habits at home and not allow their child to stay up till past midnight playing games.
     
  2. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 14, 2014

    According to others on this thread, the children only fail the third grade test due to "a bad day" and are "unduly punished."

    Of course, passing along a student who can't read in the third grade is a form of punishment as well that doesn't show itself completely until years later, but why not be an enabler and push that student along solely because they'll "feel punished" if you don't?
     
  3. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,783
    Likes Received:
    1,717

    Mar 14, 2014

    I always see excuses like this and the test anxiety excuse as grasping for an excuse to get rid of standardized testing. It is really easy to show the student that has a bad day or the student that has test anxiety, but if you have a class and 8 out of 24 kids "have a bad day" and never had test anxiety bother them before, most likely it isn't either of these excuses for all of them or most of them.

    The magic bad day is a convenient excuse.
     
  4. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    38

    Mar 14, 2014

    gr3teacher, unless you no longer teach in VA as your side thing says... we're not even a CC-state. So while I understand your frustration, it's not related to Common Core- it's standardized testing in general you seem to dislike.

    I don't have to give as many district/state tests in high school. It comes out to 6 a year, including the EOC test, so I get that it might be overwhelming in classes that teach all subjects, but I don't mind the process. I get AMAZINGLY frustrated at bad tests (we had one this year created by our own district that had "Nat Turner at Harper's Ferry" as a correct answer!!), but I don't dislike the tests.

    I'm a data freak. I love seeing how my kids did, what they missed, trying to figure out WHY they missed and trying to fix it. And I always tell my kids- the district (and state to a degree) pays me. They have the right to know I'm not showing Disney movies every day.

    But again, none of that has to do with Common Core, because we are not a Common Core state.
     
  5. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    17

    Mar 14, 2014

    How does the 3rd grader have a higher stakes than a HS? That doesn't make any sense.

    If a 3rd grader does not do well on the MSA (MD's state test), they can still go on to 4th grade. There is no consequence for the child although they my be moved to a lower level class the following year and be given intervention opportunities. If a HS cannot pass the HSA, they are not graduating. They also have to take intervention classes.

    After reading your other posts ... Are you saying, that you have personally had students retained in the 3rd grade for not passing your state exam. Or, have you simply heard stories about this happening?
     
  6. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 14, 2014

    I would like to know what retention really looks like as well.

    I read in 1 post that if 3 graders didn't pass the test they were retained and had to repeat 3rd grade until they passed the test. When they passed the test, the 3rd grade class magically becomes a 4th grade class...
     
  7. jojo808

    jojo808 Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1

    Mar 15, 2014

    CCSS Not Scripted

    [QUOTE
    If a 3rd grader does not do well on the MSA (MD's state test), they can still go on to 4th grade. There is no consequence for the child although they my be moved to a lower level class the following year and be given intervention opportunities.
     
  8. jojo808

    jojo808 Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1

    Mar 15, 2014

    This is an example of a CCSS Standard in Reading History/Social Studies: Cite specific textual evidence to support analysis of primary and secondary sources.
     
  9. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,423

    Mar 15, 2014

    In my state, you do fail 3rd grade if you don't pass the test. You will fail again the next year if you don't pass the test.
     
  10. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    So what does this actually look like? Do you have 13 year old 3rd graders?

    Can you please explain with specifics what this looks like, I am curious?

    1. If they fail the test, they repeat 3rd grade?

    2. If they fail the test they go to a "4th grade" class and keep taking the 3rd grade test until they pass?

    3. What happens when in December of the next year they pass the test?
     
  11. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    I had a 13 year old girl come to Virginia after being retained twice in Florida. Her peers were in 7th grade. Florida would have had her in 5th. We put her in 6th, gave her the special ed support that Florida didn't give her (yeah... turns out 15 minutes a week for a 13 year old reading at a second grade level might not be sufficient), and she ended up passing all her 6th grade tests.

    From the girl's records, I saw nothing indicating December exams. As far as I know, no state has such a thing before high school end-of-course exams.
     
  12. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    17

    Mar 15, 2014

    That is not a consequence if the student really needs academic help and intervention. There are times when standardized tests do reveal that students have not mastered certain skills.
     
  13. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    I am referring to the high stakes testing portion. In your district how does it work?

    Can you please explain with specifics what this looks like, I am curious?

    1. If they fail the test, they repeat 3rd grade?

    2. If they fail the test they go to a "4th grade" class and keep taking the 3rd grade test until they pass?

    3. What happens when in December of the next year they pass the test?

    I am questioning what I read from another post. Where students who failed the 3rd grade test were retained, when they passed the test, the class they are in magically became a 4th grade class. It was very "shady" sounding imo.
     
  14. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    The girl was retained as a third grader because the state of Florida mandated she be retained after failing the 3rd grade FCAT, and her school retained her in 4th grade when she failed the 4th grade FCAT. I don't know what in the world you're saying about the magically becoming a fourth grader stuff.

    1) In Florida and several other states, unless they meet a few specific circumstances (generally requiring either intense disabilities or being brand new to the country), you don't go to fourth grade unless you pass the third grade test. Period, end of story.

    2) No. They get retained. Meaning they are in a 3rd grade class. Because they are still considered third graders.

    3) December test?
     
  15. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    17

    Mar 15, 2014

    Have you, personally, ever had a third grader in your class retained for not passing the state exam in VA? Do they even do this in your state?
     
  16. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    I teach gifted kids, so I don't tend to run into that problem, although one of my girls last year is going through intense intervention requiring her to give up part of her recess time and come to school thirty minutes early because she only barely passed the reading test (the fact that she reads on an 8th grade reading level, scored 100% on all district reading tests, and went into the hospital with appendicitis three hours after the reading test ended doesn't seem to be a factor at all...). Students in other classes have been retained over their SOL results with no other "warning signs" though.
     
  17. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    Here in Virginia, it's not a state-wide thing (yet), but some schools do retain over SOL results. All schools in my area put their kids through intense intervention if they fail SOLs, whatever the reason for it may be. Often those interventions are either before school, after school, or on weekends. Not to mention summers.

    When I taught in Maryland, my principal threatened to fire a second-year teacher if she referred a child for Special Education services, because that student wasn't likely to pass the MSA and would hurt the subgroup chances.
     
  18. ScienceEd

    ScienceEd Companion

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 15, 2014

    That seems like a gross misuse of the tests by administration and schools.

    Didn't you or the parents of the girl object to the intensive and unnecessary interventions?

    I believe parents can refuse interventions.

    Why would the principal NOT want a child be referred to Special Education services?

    They normally get accommodations which help the children pass classes they normally would fail in a regular classroom.
     
  19. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    How does it work at your school for the other teachers in 3rd grade? You have said it is very high stakes, so what are the stakes for the students at your school if they fail the test? Do they actually get held back?
     
  20. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    In another post a teacher was explaining how the retention process worked. To me it came across as very "shady".

    The way I understood it was that if a student failed the 3rd grade test, they were retained. They were put into some kind of combo class or something. The students who were retained had to continue to retake the 3rd grade test until they passed.

    So if a student who was retained, passed the retake in december, they were just magically in 4th grade again, just now part of the 4th grade side of the combo or something.

    So the student who was "retained" in 3rd, but passed the retake, was still with all the other students she was originally with. The student didn't actually get held back a year.

    It was imo, slight of hand.
     
  21. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    If a kid has been retained before, if they are ELL, or if they are SPED, they get promoted. Otherwise, they are recommended for retention. Parents can agree or disagree, but generally our population would just agree with whatever the school recommends.
     
  22. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    Can you verify this for sure? Because in California over 50% of the students would not leave 3rd grade.

    Maybe the tests are easy in these states?

    I just don't think it is as cut and dry as you make it sound.
     
  23. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    http://leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind...ing=&URL=1000-1099/1008/Sections/1008.25.html

    The only exemptions are for students with less than two years of English instruction, students with IEPs indicating they can't take the FCAT (which would generally be approximately 1% of the Special Ed population), students who pass the Florida Alternative Assessment, and students who have received at least two years of intensive reading intervention AND have been retained at least twice previously.
     
  24. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,783
    Likes Received:
    1,717

    Mar 15, 2014

    Florida policies on retention:

    gr3teacher talked about retention based on 3rd grade reading tests in Florida. Here is a pdf that discusses retention of those 3rd graders. "Students in Grade 3 must score in Level 2
    or higher on FCAT Reading to be promoted. There are also alternate assessments and good cause exemptions that apply to Grade 3 students."
    http://fcat.fldoe.org/pdf/fcatfaq1.pdf
     
  25. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    Yeah, it appears a score of a 2 would be equivalent to a below basic score in California.
     
  26. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    The number of third grade students scoring a 1 in Florida is about 18%. The number of students scoring either below basic or far below basic in California is about 14%. I'd say 2 in Florida would encompass the top three quarters or so of your basic, and the bottom half of your proficient group. A 1 in Florida would encompass all your below basics, and a quarter of your basic kids.
     
  27. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    AWESOME lets say this is the case. I am calling BUNK on Florida holding back that many in the traditional fashion. I want to hear many of the 3rd grade teachers saying it is true, 20 of my students this year, will in fact be in my class again next year, and we hired 14 more 3rd grade teachers to staff the retentions from last year and this year.

    That is why I made a post where Florida teachers can talk to the reality of their system and not to a webpage with little specifics.

    I made a forum topic, lets see what Florida teachers say.
     
  28. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    What is the percentage of students scoring a 2 in Florida?

    I am looking to see what percentage of students are up for mandatory retention in 3rd grade. then we can see how much of that percentage is excluded and get down to the real mandatory retention in 3rd grade.
     
  29. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Mar 15, 2014

    http://www.fasp.org/PDF_Files/FASP_Publications/PP3rdGrdRet.pdf

    I can't find more recent data, but 14% of third graders overall were retained in 2002-2003.

    http://fcat.fldoe.org/mediapacket/2013/pdf/ReadingStatewideComparison3.pdf

    18% of Florida 3rd graders in 2013 were level 1, 24% were level 2, 23% level 3, 23% level 4, and 11% level 5.

    For comparison,

    http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2013/Vie...District=&lstSchool=&lstGroup=1&lstSubGroup=1

    I was looking at the math results earlier, but for California, 8% were far below basic, 15% below basic, 31% basic, 26% proficient, 19% advanced.
     
  30. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Mar 15, 2014

    So am I understanding it right that of the 42% that did not pass the test, the number that were mandated to be held back was reduced to 14%?

    What does retention look like in this state? Florida teachers?
     
  31. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    123

    Mar 15, 2014

    Retention is serious business. The decision to do so should never be based solely on a single test.

    For example, suppose you retain a student with a January birthday in first grade. The far reaching consequence is that now you will have a kid who will turn 18 half way through his or her junior year.

    What's the big deal, you might ask? Simple. Parents still have some legal means to keep a 17 year old in school. An 18 year old, they do not. An 18 year old can move out, sign a lease, work a night shift, and mess up their lives in a number of other ways that one might when they are at an age when the decision making process is still quite limited.

    But aren't these kids going to turn 18 at the end of their senior year anyway? Yes they will. But there is a big difference between turning 18 when you have a semester left and turning 18 when you have a full year and a half of school left. When it's just a few months, the incentive to stick around and actually get the diploma you have worked for is very strong. When I taught high school, teachers always said that when a kid showed up on the first day of school in the 12th grade, the odds of them graduating were actually quite good.

    But when a kid legally becomes an adult and they have over a year of school left, the thought of just quitting and going out and getting a dead-end low wage job so you can sleep on your friends couch actually looks enticing compared to going to school every day and living at home.

    That is why I NEVER consider retaining a first grader if it means they will turn 18 before the first day of school in their senior year. The only time I might is if they are so far behind that second grade would be a compete waste of time for them. And for the most part, when kids are that far behind, starting the IEP process is probably a better idea because they probably have some sort of learning issue.
     
  32. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,395
    Likes Received:
    7

    Mar 15, 2014

    Sarge-very good points. My hubby turned 19 in June before his senior year, because he was an old kindergartner anyway (6), then missed a lot of school due to medical issues and was held back. No one thought of that (I'd like to kick his parents butts-they could have made arrangements for him but didn't). The result-he couldn't participate in any activity as a senior. That was tough. He actually sued the state sports association for the right to play, but lost.
     
  33. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,105

    Mar 16, 2014

    Citing evidence is part of many of the CCSS standards. The skill allows students to justify their thoughts and arguments by offering 'proof' from the text. Were you objecting to or not understanding this standard?
     
  34. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 16, 2014

    Given the context, it's clear the poster was referring to the accusations that the CCSS are "scripted"; they clearly are not scripted with standards such as that, and they provide teachers plenty of leeway to get to mastery of that particular skill strand.
     
  35. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,105

    Mar 16, 2014

    But there could be packaged scripted programs that include activities tied to the noted skill. I'm fortunate to work in a district where teachers have the 'leeway' to choose materials and deliver instruction in ways we see as best for our students.:thumb:
     
  36. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 16, 2014

    And, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, there have been scripted programs for decades; why is a CCSS sticker on the cover a surprise?
     
  37. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,105

    Mar 16, 2014

    I'm not surprised. :dizzy: :confused:
     
  38. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 16, 2014

    Then why are you even bringing up scripted programs?
     
  39. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,105

    Mar 16, 2014

    A better question would be why are you starting an argument where none exists? Have a great day, Honest Teacher...
     
  40. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Mar 16, 2014

    Because your demeaning question to the OP left only the choices of "disagreeing with or not understanding the CCSS."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. VB2020,
  2. Mrs. K.,
  3. sevenplus
Total: 363 (members: 4, guests: 346, robots: 13)
test