Take the vaccine or no job

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Teachingtoo, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. Teachingtoo

    Teachingtoo Rookie

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    Our state has made the covid 19 vaccination mandatory to enter all government and private entities including schools. This applies to all admin staff, teachers and students ages 12 and above. Primary and elementary students will have it distance learning until 70 percent of the states population has been vaccinated by two doses or until they reach herd immunity.

    I received an email from school admin yesterday (principal cc'd), as well as a text message on my phone. The message was "..... Hurry and take the vaccine in order to continue with us".

    We resume in about two weeks. I haven't taken the vaccine and plan not to. I feel worried sick to my stomach about what's to happen when I break the news to the admin. Im not sure how to go about with this..I do not want to loose my job and neither do I think anyone should be forced to take the vaccine if they don't want to
     
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  3. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I don't see how you are being forced.

    You are free to not take the vaccine and the state is free to fire you if you choose to violate state policy.

    You need to decide if your freedom to put your students at risk is worth your job.
     
  4. Teachingtoo

    Teachingtoo Rookie

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    I see it as being forced since it's a threat that if we don't take the vaccine we won't be allowed into the building.

    If reaching herd immunity in about a month or two means everything goes back to normal and those that haven't been vaccinated yet don't need to be anymore... Then I don't see that how I may be putting anyone at risk if I choose to not take the vaccine now
     
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  5. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Maven

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    We have a deadline where we have to get it also. I think it's the middle of September. We were also told that we had to get the flu shot. I believe that if we fill out a form stating why we aren't getting it, it might be accepted (depending on the reason). I got it just so they wouldn't have any beef with me. I really didn't want to.
     
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  6. CaliforniaRPCV

    CaliforniaRPCV Comrade

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    Yeah. We've been a month or two from herd immunity for close to a year now and 600,000+ have died in the course of waiting for that. Get the vaccine and save lives.
     
  7. rpan

    rpan Cohort

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    If it’s state mandated then your schools hands are tied with regards to the vaccine. You could work for a state that doesn’t have this mandate, you could get vaccinated and continue working, you could remain unemployed till herd immunity is reached and the mandate is rescinded. Choices choices choices….
    You may not like the choices on the table but they are choices nonetheless, and choices fully within your control. Gotta make your bed and lie in it one way or another.
     
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  8. Aces

    Aces Devotee

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    Firstly you’re not being forced to do anything. You are free to choose not to get vaccinated. However, you are not free from the consequences of your choice. That’s how adults conduct society — choices and consequences, both good and bad. You have to decide if those consequences are worth it or not.

    Secondly, as a former science teacher and current admin, grow up please. Unless you have legitimate medical concerns about getting the vaccine, I really don’t see the issue (and if you do, your state probably has a waiver that your doctor can fill out). But I’m going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that scenario either 1) doesn’t apply to you or 2) you haven’t bothered to check.

    Thirdly, you’re part of the problem about the delta mutation, as well as herd immunity. Every time a virus replicates, there’s chance that it will mutate. Essentially, when the RNA is copied, it has copy errors. Some of them are harmless and do nothing. Some of them are like the delta mutation, and cause the virus to be more transmittable. Here’s the thing, though. Sometimes when we’re actively fighting a virus, it can evolve to evade our efforts through mutations and natural selection. The longer the virus has to spread, the greater the chance of a worse mutation.

    In conclusion, get over yourself or get out of public service, respectfully. I don’t think you’re oppressed, or you’re a hero fighting for ones’ rights, none of that. I think you’re ignorant and selfish and the fact that 4.32 million people have died from this virus means nothing to you.
     
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  9. Missy

    Missy Aficionado

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    We will not be able to reach herd immunity because so many people eligible for the vaccine are choosing not to receive it.
     
  10. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Teachingtoo: I'm sure you are a good person, but you come off as a jerk. You're willing to let everyone else get a shot so you don't have to.

    You are putting your comfort ahead of the safety of your students. This seems profoundly immoral. Please get out of education and stay away from children who can't yet get the vaccine.

    We don't need selfish, immoral people in education.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
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  11. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Virtuoso

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    Just because you don’t like the consequences doesn’t mean they aren’t being fair to you.

    I am a fan of vaccines. I’m vaccinated for everything available to me. Even though I was high risk for an allergic reaction to the Covid vaccine, I discussed it with my physician and allergist and had a plan in place to help reduce the risks. I got the vaccine and did fine with it.
     
  12. Teachingtoo

    Teachingtoo Rookie

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    Tyler B, Aces: You know nothing about me other than a few paragraphs I've typed on here. FYI, I'm a Covid survivor. I know how horrible and deadly the virus is and wouldnt wish it on my own worst enemy. Also, I have a medical condition, which I'm not comfortable sharing here. Already discussed this with my doctor.

    As per the laws of the state, exemptions will be based on medical reports. The medical reports and requests will be sent to the ministry of health. Hospitals and institutions are allowed to send those reports on behalf of th e patient. The institution has sent my medical reports to the ministry almost TWO months ago. We still haven't heard anything back from them. Schools will be resuming in about two weeks and this is why I feel forced to take it. I have my reasons and it's not at all about being selfish or ignorant.

    Keep your rude remarks to yourself. Or use a more civil approach when responding to someone asking for an opinion
     
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  13. Teachingtoo

    Teachingtoo Rookie

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    Thank you for your message. My doctor and I have been discussing about this
     
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  14. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Exactly. I am for people having control over their own bodies. One can always choose not to get the vaccine, but actions have consequences. If that's the choice you make, OP, then you live with the consequences.
     
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  15. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I admit that the tone of my response to your unwillingness to get vaccinated (and your hope that the community with gain herd immunity without your participation) sounded harsh.

    Sorry about your medical issues. However, you shouldn't be with kids if you are unvaccinated.
     
  16. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    OP...your original post took the position that you felt you were being forced to choose between your job and the vaccine...hence the rather exuberant replies to you.
    Had you simply mentioned that you have a medical condition and can't take the vaccine...you may have had a more positive effect on the posters replying to your thread.
     
  17. Aces

    Aces Devotee

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    You asked my opinion. I provided. And while it may be changed, I’m not apologizing for what I’ve said. I responded to the information I was provided.

    Your medical condition is indeed your business. But at the same time, how could we have possibly have known that information because you didn’t tell us? We couldn’t have.

    Rather than posted a jaded opinion about how unfairly you’re being treated for sympathy points, some pointers: next time provide more context and take your fight to your state/district/etc.

    My husband was in the hospital for three weeks because of covid. My best friend died because of covid. I’m a covid survivor myself.
     
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  18. CaliforniaRPCV

    CaliforniaRPCV Comrade

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    I stand corrected. 600,000+ in the US, millions around the world. I shouldn't be so restrictive, especially since the OP is not in the US. And, as there are so many people around the world where a vaccine is not available, herd immunity doesn't seem likely, ever.

    To be fair, the OP did put taking the vaccine in terms of choice rather than one directed by medical necessity. Thus, the strident response.
     
  19. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    OP. I read your original and follow-up posts. It seems that email was probably a mass email. If you have submitted your paperwork for a medical exemption, the best thing for you to do is follow up with the ministry. More than likely it was set up in a computer system to hide the names of everyone but the sender, you, and the cc'd principal. It is also set up to send a text to the mobile numbers in the system of those that gave permission to do so.

    I'm thinking this is not unlike a teacher telling the class what they have to do knowing full well there are students in class that have accommodations that say they can do otherwise.

    With that said, I do understand your feelings. People are being forced to choose.
    I also see other's feelings. Knowing people who died or were severely ill from covid is a terrible thing to have to go through.

    Fortunately, I don't know anyone who died of covid. In fact, I don't even know anyone who was hospitalized with covid. I do know a bunch of people who had covid and recovered without ongoing issues. However, I do know multiple people who were severely harmed by the lock-downs and others who died due to the lack of medical care (can't get cancer surgery and treatment because it was deemed "elective" - won't die within 24 hours because of it).

    Everyone has their own feelings and experiences around covid and being forced to choose to do things. I see both sides. I don't think there is a right side.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
  20. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Maven

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    Ok, since you have special circumstances you might want to reach out to your district and tell them about your medical waiver. They might ask for a doctor's note which I'm sure your doctor would provide.Ask someone at the district (or whoever sent that email to you) what you should be doing right now to get this paperwork put through. I would be proactive if I were you since you only have 2 weeks left.
     
  21. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    I, too, am a covid survivor. Although not on a ventilator at the time (none available), I essentially lost at least six weeks of my life, with only fragments of memories that overwhelmingly indicate I was certain I was going to die. The aftereffects still plague me in more ways than I would have thought possible. I have lost much of the sense of taste, meaning nothing ever tastes like something you would willingly eat. My lungs still struggle to clear congestion; I become fatigued easily, even 18 months later; I still have brain fog with memory gaps, which is very scary since I am a highly educated science teacher. I have a fear of being in any crowd, but I see that as a reasonable defense against a disease that is so much more deadly than even the numbers indicate.

    My response was to sign up for the Janssen vaccine trials. I finally received the real vaccine, without incident. When it became apparent that the mRNA vaccines were probably superior to preventing the disease, I also took the 2 doses of Pfizer's vaccine, which was supported by my personal physician. Here we sit with school right around the corner, and there is some evidence that the Moderna vaccine might be better at protecting against the Delta variant, and my doctor and I are discussing whether or not I should get that as well.

    I, too, as a science teacher, but I have taught long enough to become aware of many individuals who simply don't like being told what to do, and they will go to great lengths to evade vaccines of any type just because someone says they are mandatory. In conversations with them over the years I have come to see that that don't care about the health of others - they simply want to "beat the system." I believe in vaccines, as evidenced by the choices I have made to try to get ahead of the Covid and flu viruses. My doctor suspects that my immune system has become damaged due to the infection I survived, which explains why I would seek out yet another vaccination to Covid. I have already had my flu shot - I am trying to make sure that I can cover as many bases as possible, with no guarantee that the vaccines will work as well for me, but still I try.

    I agree that your course of action lies with your submitted paperwork. I would also get a second opinion from another doctor as to how your prior infection should make you exempt against taking the vaccine. If you fear a serious condition to arise from a vaccination, which is, in essence a "challenge" to your immune system that makes sure you will have a better chance of surviving a second infection, then you probably shouldn't be working with the virus running rampant at this time. We know very little about how long any kind of immunity will last, but the evidence is coming in that indicates this is not one of those diseases where you get it only once in your lifetime. Even though I understand herd immunity, I have strong suspicions that we will not be able to attain that in the near future because of how rapidly this virus is able to mutate, making itself more transmissible, thus more dangerous and deadly.

    If you can't be vaccinated then this is a fight your doctor should be heavily involved in. As a parent, however, I may sympathize with your reasons for not vaccinating, but I would suggest a job that greatly limits your contact with children too young to be vaccinated. It would seem like the prudent course of action.
     
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  22. Caballo21

    Caballo21 Rookie

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    Aug 15, 2021

    I really didn't want to get the vaccine either. I don't handle them well, in general and have chosen not to get the flu vaccine for the past few years. However, I work with small kids and knew I needed to get the Covid vaccine to protect them. Our school was also completely in person all year last year, and I saw firsthand 1)How quickly it spread and 2) How sick some parents and staff got from their kids getting sick. The kids I worked with (PreK - grade 6) were generally asymptomatic, but some present flu-like symptoms. I've heard cases of other kids not being so lucky.

    I drank TONS of water & electrolyte packets after the second one and I did fine. The first one was rougher, but I didn't drink as much water.

    No one can tell you what to do, but it sounds like you really don't want to lose your job. As others have said, this is your choice.
     
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  23. Guitart

    Guitart Companion

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    The last I heard, the vaccine only lessens your symptoms if you get the virus. It does not prevent you from carrying or spreading the virus. Surprisingly, you can actually Google this and it will tell you the truth (or at least we hope it is).

    The PCR test detects fragments of active or dead material that matches what they have identified as related to Covid. The vaccine does not filter or kill these particles. A vaccinated person can still exhale these fragments and spread the virus around. Same goes for a person with natural immunity. So getting vaccinated or being a Covid survivor, and gaining natural immunity, isn't protecting kids or anyone except yourself.
     
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  24. Caballo21

    Caballo21 Rookie

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    Why the masks are also staying on at our school. We aren't required to wear them but so far everyone working with kids has had them.
     
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  25. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    If you are going to trust Google for your "truths", may I suggest starting with some of the more respected sources:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4vXZ2N-z8gIVT_vICh26IwbSEAAYAiAAEgLMH_D_BwE#expert-videos?mc_id=google&campaign=12619401580&geo=9004013&kw=coronavirus vaccine&ad=509662149010&network=g&sitetarget=&adgroup=120759313820&extension=&target=kwd-347766426160&matchtype=p&device=c&account=7470347919&placementsite=enterprise
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2021/07/21/covid-vaccine-breakthrough-infections/
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/10/bre...hy-fully-vaccinated-people-can-get-covid.html
    https://whyy.org/articles/what-is-breakthrough-covid-infection-how-can-i-avoid-it/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/health/cdc-masks-vaccinated-transmission.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  26. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Nature is typically a reputable source. Here is an article that sites multiple sources, although many of the references are pre-prints which means they have yet to be peer reviewed. Given the nature of the situation, that is not unexpected.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

    I think there is still a fair amount of research to be done and data to be gathered. From what I read, in addition to not getting as sick in almost all cases, one of the advantages that they found was the vaccinated can spread the disease for a shorter time period than the unvaccinated. The viral load is the same in the studies cited.

    There has been a big difference in what Houston is seeing vs New England (can't remember the state). It could be more about the behaviors of the people than just the virus itself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
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  27. Guitart

    Guitart Companion

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    You bet. Here is some respected news:
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
    Key Point bullet #3:
    • A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

    When you "Google it" you find this answer and site being promoted:
    https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/
     
  28. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    One of the reasons:
    When people inhale, they may be exposed to virus already in the air, and because they will exhale, that virus has the chance be moved to a new person or locale. Think of it as the lungs being a holding tank for the air and viral material they breathe, and particles suspended in that collection of air plus particles is dependent on many factors, including virulent virus being exhaled by those with the disease as well as dead or neutralized viral particles, attacked by either the person who shared their own viral load (and this is where the Delta variant becomes very problematic, since many people may have high viral loads in their own airways.) This is also the place where others, including the fully vaccinated, would benefit themselves as well as others by a return to mask use. In essence, the more unvaccinated individuals in the community the more likely that the vaccinations alone will not be able to stop the spread of the virus.

    Bottom line, for me, is to vaccinate with the vaccines with the best track records:heavycheck:. and wear masks once again.:heavycheck: These choices give the most probable outcome that I will not die from Covid, nor will I be as likely to be any source of the virus to those I come into contact with as I go through my day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
  29. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Maven

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    Thanks for the electrolyte tip. I have my 2nd dose on the 24th so i will definitely prepare.
     
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  30. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    So, I am currently a vaccinated person who has covid. Still extremely glad I got the vaccine, because if I have mild/recognizable symptoms with the vaccine, I can't imagine what it would have been like without. In the beginning I felt just like I had a sinus infection, and felt like maybe I was even overreacting going to get a covid test. I eventually lost my sense of smell, which would have been a red flag, but not until 3 days after the other symptoms. It took some digging for me to find that there is some information that says symptoms look different for vaccinated people, and those symptoms are consistent with what I had. It's not widespread information because we're still largely pretending vaccinated people aren't getting it at all. I wonder how many are getting mild symptoms and waving it off as something else.

    On Wednesday I got a runny nose and was sneezing a ton. There is wildfire smoke here, so not at all unexpected or atypical. On Thursday, it started feeling more like a sinus infection. I scheduled a test for Friday morning and emailed my boss asking what she wanted me to do. Thankfully, she told me to stay home. On Wednesday and Thursday we had teacher work days and I spent pretty much the entire day sitting around a small table with my teammates working on various things. We're all vaxxed, so we weren't wearing masks. They all tested this morning and they're all negative. There's a small chance something could show up later, but the recommendation is testing 3-5 days after exposure.
     
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  31. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I know this is your opinion, but I have known since early on that people who were fully vaccinated had break though infections. I knew from before the vaccine was given to the public that you could still get COVID but it will be lessened. I'm not sure why you are of the opinion that people are pretending that vaccinated people aren't getting it at all.
     
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  32. CaliforniaRPCV

    CaliforniaRPCV Comrade

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    Things do change. And for a brief time the CDC was saying vaccinated people could do just about anything without a mask. I think that lasted about, what, two weeks? But people latched on to that, and it's been hard to take it back. Some, like you and other well informed people, including the CDC, could have seen variants coming that would break through the vaccines with more frequency, and allow vaccinated people to transmit the virus more easily. Unfortunately, dissemination of that kind of information, how viruses and covid in particular can change and the possible consequences, has been more reactive than proactive. A more public and complete education on these matters might have dampened the elation that came with vaccines. It may also have lessened the shock and maintained more trust as things went a bit off optimal.
     
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  33. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    We are so used to our vaccines to being "forever" and highly effective. I never cease to be amazed at how quickly any Covid vaccines were brought to market, while working with a novel, unknown virus that has a high mortality rate, almost a hundred years since the last global pandemic. I agree that big chunks of vital information about the virus were only shared when things got so dire that there was virtually no way to hide the bad, and sometimes truly terrifying information, although that didn't seem to keep some countries, governments, and influential people from trying to write a narrative that was less than factual.

    I would hope that people can see that this is a disaster and a story of resourcefulness all in a single tale. Other than people who deny what is right in front of them, most people realize now that we have a virus that replicates quickly, often creating variants of the virus, requiring vigilance from all of us in an attempt to stay on track with the changes. I also hope that people will take all the prudent measures in an attempt to slow down transmission, which brings the possibility of fewer variants we have to contend with.

    I agree that the CDC and those in the Oval Office shared "facts" that were intended to raise belief in how the government was dealing with the virus, hoping, perhaps, to raise belief in how our government was dealing with this new virus. The US has often been in the forefront of developing drugs and vaccines, but only history will tell the whole story and dish out praise and/or blame.

    Covid is showing some of what we can expect going forward, with the virus continuing to mutate and adapt with apparent ease, and this is the thing that worries me the most. Although there will continue to be tons of research done on this virus, I expect that the way and rate that it can mutate will continue cause problems going forward. I hope I am wrong, but the science teacher in me raises those concerns. I don't know whether Covid will remain pandemic, epidemic, or endemic going forward, and I don't know that we have enough information to predict that as of today. I do suggest the following: https://www.publichealth.columbia.e...pidemic-endemic-pandemic-what-are-differences.
     
  34. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    This doesn't surprise me. The research into mRNA has been going on for 10-15 years. COVID brought about two things: need (reason to cut red tape) and money (reasons for pharmaceutical companies to push more money into the research).

    Getting a vaccine approved for something with a low mortality rate compared to the infection rate is hard to do until there is a need. COVID, although it has killed a lot of people due to it being novel in the population, its mortality rate is relatively low. The reason it was able to come to market so fast is that the basic science had been funded. Implementing it without all the red tape was all that was needed to push it through quickly since the drug companies now had $$ in their eyes.
     
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  35. Guitart

    Guitart Companion

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    I once worked with an engineer at a factory who said, "A good fire solves a lot of problems."

    After a catastrophic event, you need to get things back to normal in a hurry. Funny how all the requisitions get signed without all the questions.
     
  36. creativemonster

    creativemonster Comrade

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    Aug 18, 2021

    Teachertoo, I admit that I am jealous that you get to be in an environment where even the students over 12 will be vaccinated. I wish that were true where I am. I am amazed at how many unvaccinated young people feel comfortable knee to knee in a room where the windows weren't even designed to open. And so many of them are still allowing their masks to slip. I look forward to a time when this vaccine as seen as the other mandatory vaccines. You know, the ones for the diseases that are names we know ONLY because of the vaccine, not because we know people who were ill with it.
    May those of you who don't have any personal connection to this horrible disease, continue to remain untouched. And may we all do EVERYTHING in our power to help each other through this.
     
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  37. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Connoisseur

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    Aug 19, 2021

    I knew this was happening more than reported on the news. I am so glad for you that the vaccine made your symptoms mild. Are you feeling better? I hope so. That part the news has been saying and it is good to hear it from someone. I am friends with nurses who work at a hospital. Last week, they had more beds filled with Covid fully vaccinated patients than not vaccinated. I almost wish they had never told me all that they did! 1 of my neighbors got Covid 2x too. All I know for sure is we need to be as cautious as we can be without totally giving up our lives. I have just found it is best to visit outside at a distance with anyone who is not being as cautious as our family members. Then we just hope for the best!
     
  38. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Aug 19, 2021

    Thanks for asking. I feel okay. I've never had a symptom that could be described as anything but "mild," but they sure aren't going away quickly, and things come and go which is just annoying. I would have preferred being sick in bed for a few days and then getting 100% better right away to this, honestly. From my friends who have had covid as well, I hear this is just how it is. Symptoms come and go and you don't just wake up feeling 100% better all at once. I had what felt like a sinus infection for a few days. That went away, and then I had intermittent issues with feeling tired, achy, bad headache, etc. Sense of smell went away completely for three days and then started coming back, but is now intermittent. I hadn't had a cough since late last week and then all of the sudden today I have a sore throat and am coughing again. And just an hour ago, I started getting achy again. Ugh.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
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  39. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Connoisseur

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    Aug 20, 2021

    I am glad you are OK, but was hoping the symptoms were not so long lasting since you have been vaccinated. It is good they are mild though! Rest up and take lots of Airborne.:)
     
  40. Caballo21

    Caballo21 Rookie

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    Aug 24, 2021

    Of course, I hope all went well with the second shot!
     
  41. Caballo21

    Caballo21 Rookie

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    Aug 24, 2021

    Sorry to hear this & I hope you feel better soon. This is a good warning for me, as I've been without a mask at work this week (no students yet).
     
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