Students Who Can't Use Internet

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Ima Teacher, May 18, 2020.

  1. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

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    May 18, 2020

    How common is it for you to have students who are not permitted to use the internet? How about not permitted to have a school-provided device?

    This year I've had some parents who do not allow their child to use the internet or will not allow their child to have a school-provided Chromebook. They all did eventually permit the use of internet and Chromebooks at school with direct supervision, but they did not allow the devices to be taken home. That proved to be an issue when we were doing online instruction since those kids were doing modified paper copies of the work.

    Is this something that you see very often?
     
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  3. viola_x_wittrockiana

    viola_x_wittrockiana Comrade

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    May 18, 2020

    I know of only one student who flat-out isn't allowed internet, and that's because the family is of a conservative religious group and the kid did something to abuse the privilege (don't know what it was, so not judging here). I do know of some who can only access with supervision, and probably with good reason, knowing the kids.

    Weird that parents refuse the school chromebooks. If they're anything like ours, there's all kinds of stuff blocked by the browser filters. Of course, they find ways to get to things they ought not to, like games (and I totally had to write a detention for a fart-noise generator LOL), but nothing truly questionable. We have to send our links to the tech coach and she has to clear the URLs in the filter before the kids can access sites if it's anything that isn't broadly child-safe, like PBS kids.

    We have more kids who don't have web access on anything but phones than kids who aren't allowed internet, with a few who are sharing one laptop between the whole family.
     
  4. RainStorm

    RainStorm Phenom

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    May 18, 2020

    I actually had several parents who refused to let their child take their iPad home. They are quite correct that the firewalls used at school do not function outside of the school's internet zone, and many parents to not have the appropriate block or firewall.

    Two of mine that refused were incredible conservative and devotedly religious, and they simply felt the computer was a waste of their child's time.

    I had another who very strongly felt that he paid tuition for his child to learn at a private school, and that everything that child needed to do educationally should be done at school, by school staff. It felt (and was very vocal about) that he or his child should not be responsible for charging the unit at home, keeping up with charging cables, or being responsible for the iPad itself. He felt teachers were asking him to do their job. Nothing we said would ever change his mind, so we just lived with it. I felt really bad for the boy -- he'd get so upset when all his classmates finished something at home, and he wasn't allowed to. (His dad also refused to let him do any homework at home, feeling again, that if it needed to be done, it should be done at school by the teacher, because hew as paying for this child's education.) Our administration chose to give-in to him, and we were told not to give any zeros for work not completed, and to allow the child to come in early (on our own time, of course) to work on it under our supervision.

    The last one I had, I completely understood. The child could not be trusted not to sneak onto horrific web sites (I mean, the sites he went on would make a very open-minded, liberal, sexually-flexible person blush -- think things like sexual-sadism, and sexual torture -- and this child was 9.) His parents said they were unable (more like unwilling) to supervise and keep him off inappropriate sites (and this kid could find his way around any firewall or content-blocker.) I totally understood they did not want him to EVER have access to an iPad. We rarely were even able to let him use one in class, supervised, because you couldn't take your eye off him for a second. {of course, we later found out that he originally got access to these sites from his dad's computer history, and these sites were designed to not be picked up by firewalls or content-blockers. The names of these sites were strings of random letters, and this child actually memorized dozens of them.)
     
  5. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    May 19, 2020 at 6:40 AM

    I can really understand families not wanting the responsibility of expensive school equipment at home.
     
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  6. TeacherNY

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    May 19, 2020 at 6:55 AM

    So it wouldn't occur to them to supervise their child when they use the internet?????
     
  7. a2z

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    May 19, 2020 at 7:26 AM

    Please define what you mean by supervise, because for kids like the one described who is crafty and can get around any blockers requires more than how I define "supervision". They require eyes on them 100% of the time they are on the electronics. This isn't something where the child can be on the internet while the parent is cooking or folding laundry in the same area.

    It is very possible that a parent may not have the time needed to sit and stare at everything the child is doing while using the computer.
     
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  8. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

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    May 19, 2020 at 5:15 PM

    In two of my cases, the families do not have internet access because of their beliefs.
     
  9. whizkid

    whizkid Devotee

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    May 19, 2020 at 5:25 PM

    What beliefs would be against the internet?
     
  10. Ima Teacher

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    May 19, 2020 at 8:54 PM

    They are very conservative. No internet. No cell phones. No television. No computers.
     
  11. futuremathsprof

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    May 19, 2020 at 9:20 PM

    That’s weird. That is actually detrimental because they will not learn 21st-century skills.

    I’m all for parental blocks and limiting screen time, but never allowing a student to use technology is not the way to make them competitive in a global market.
     
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  12. Backroads

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    May 19, 2020 at 10:38 PM

    Goodness. And everyone says my religion is super conservative.
     
  13. a2z

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    May 20, 2020 at 3:24 PM

    I don't think "making them competitive in a global market" is their goal.

    Who knows, they may end up with a much happier life in the end.
     
  14. futuremathsprof

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    May 20, 2020 at 4:29 PM

    I highly disagree with this. Adopting such a stance is setting the student up for failure. Metadata and research show that technology is routinely replacing low-skilled workers and more and more jobs require technological know-how and application. The parents’ actions are literally placing the student outside of a majority of job markets.
     
  15. whizkid

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    May 20, 2020 at 5:47 PM

    Just wait until they actually "experience" life. What does a hungry caged animal do when released?
     
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  16. MissCeliaB

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    May 20, 2020 at 6:27 PM

    We have some students who have their school Internet privileges revoked due to misuse. Other than that, I've never had a student who couldn't use a device.
     
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  17. waterfall

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    May 20, 2020 at 6:54 PM

    I have never heard of that! I grew up in a very conservative home. My parents didn't want a computer, but they got tired of toting me back and forth to the library every time school work required it. They finally got one when I was in 7th grade and set it up in the living room so that use could be supervised at all times :rolleyes:.

    I would have assumed that people who are against internet use in 2020 for religious reasons would have their children at private schools. My mom taught in a Christian school and definitely ran into some crazy restrictions from parents. One of the books she taught was The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and every couple of years she'd have someone who wasn't allowed to read it because of the word "witch" in the title. Even though she explained it was a Christian allegory!
     
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  18. Ima Teacher

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    May 20, 2020 at 9:25 PM

    It is not for religious reasons. They are more “live-off-the-land” and “back-to-nature” types.
     
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  19. RainStorm

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    May 20, 2020 at 11:15 PM

    You will find in many parts of the country there are parents and families who "live off the grid." Just because they may not be common in your neck of the woods, doesn't make them odd or weird. And they have just as much right to attend public school as the next person.

    I understand what you are saying about 21st century skills, but they don't agree, and even if they don't agree, they still have the right to attend public school.

    There are also many parents in extremely low-income areas who do not want the responsibility of having expensive school-issued computers, because they do not live in an environment where they can safeguard these devices.

    There are also many families, in both city and rural areas, that are the "moving" homeless. They live in cars one night, in an aunt's house sleeping on the floor the next night, and maybe in a flop-house motel for a couple nights, maybe at a woman's shelter (they take kids, men's shelters don't typically) for a bit -- and even if you give them hotspots, they don't have a way to use them. If you are sleeping in your cousin's car, next to the dumpster behind the grocery store, that hotspot doesn't work. Saying "oh they can drive to the school or to location XYZ where they can access free internet -- that doesn't work when you only have $2 for gas, and it has to last you til the end of the month. If you are staying at a short-term shelter, you have a cot in a big room, or you are sleeping on a pew in one church this night, and a different church that night -- and if you go to the bathroom, you risk having your stuff (including the school laptop or the hotspot) stolen -- and I guess you can try to drag in all into the bathroom stall with you, but come on, be realistic.

    I get on my soapbox about this. Some teachers are quite elitest, and they fail to realize that these types of people exist in all types of public schools. There are moving homeless in rural areas, there are moving homeless in city areas and there are even moving homeless in suburbia. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

    You may think it is an easy job for parents to supervise children's internet use at home -- but just think of all the drug addicts -- who are so drugged out 90% of the time, they have no idea what their kids are doing, and certainly couldn't supervise them while they are high. And many of these middle-class drug addicts, would hock their kids school computer just to get their next fix. They'd sell their hotspot device for a fix.

    Everyone doesn't live the way you do, and everyone doesn't live the way you think they should. And most of all, children have absolutely no say in the quality of parent they end up with. It is beyond their control.
     
  20. Ima Teacher

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    May 21, 2020 at 12:36 AM

    RainStorm, those are the kids I’m talking about.

    • some live off the grid
    • some are ultra conservative
    • some are transient
    • some live in homes that lack parental support
    • some live with sketchy people who steal
    • some are destructive and damage property
    I’m looking for ways to engage those kids when we are distance learning. It’s certainly difficult. They are missing video instruction and timely feedback. Sometimes it was 15 days before I’d see work from a student. Some were not reachable by phone either.

    I wondered if this was a common issue or something others might have figured out a workaround.

    I’ve been teaching a long time in a rural, high poverty area. I can work with these kids when I have them physically with me, and we did okay when I could be in virtual contact with them. It’s the rest I worried about. I hoped someone had more ideas.

    Our school year has been over for almost two weeks, but I’m thinking ahead to near year. The kids will be 1:1 Chromebooks, but that’s useless when they can’t access the technology outside of the classroom for whatever the reason.
     
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  21. futuremathsprof

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    May 21, 2020 at 3:42 AM

    You’ve made a number of very salient points.

    That being said, I would like to first counter your assertion that being technologically averse is not weird. It is, by definition. Weird is defined as “being uncanny” and uncanny is defined as something that is “beyond the ordinary or normal.” Not allowing your child to use *any* technology, not even for educational purposes, is quite outside the norm, so it is weird by definition.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/weird

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/uncanny

    Living in the most developed and prosperous nation on Earth and electing to live entirely away from any technology or being diametrically opposed to it is absolutely outside the norm. Our nation is literally known for its many technological inventions and modern marvels the world over and to ignore them is weird, by definition.

    And I don’t know if your comments were directed at me, per se, but I don’t believe that I ever stated or insinuated that said students don’t deserve to attend public schools, but maybe I’m reading too much into that. I believe every student has a right to information to receive a quality education regardless of who they are or who their parents are. They have rights and deserve to be educated.

    Right now, for many students, the *only* way they are able to receive instruction is through virtual learning. It angers me that a parent or parents would prevent their child from participating in said lessons because it is depriving their child(ren) of an education.

    That is unacceptable regardless of whatever they believe. And frankly, I don’t care what they believe. They are not allowed to prevent their student from learning and getting an education, which is exactly what some of these “parents” are doing. They may mean well and I don’t blame them for being wary of *certain* aspects of technology like social media, and excessive video gaming, and online pornography. I absolutely agree they can protect their kid(s) from that and have every right to do so. If they are worried, they can literally set up parental blocks that ONLY allow website that end in .gov or .edu, etc. They can restrict virtually everything so I don’t get what the issue is.

    However, when said student(s) can’t even visit an online encyclopedia or watch a nature documentary or a host of other safe and mentally stimulating educational activities, I 100% take issue with that. That is not good parenting. It is highly misguided parenting.

    It is not fair for a student to be so far removed from society and out of touch with the world outside of their home that when they finally enter society as an adult, they have no way to cope or navigate through it all. Their parents are only doing them a disservice and it is almost guaranteed to negatively affect their ability to find employment practically everywhere.

    And I fully recognize that certain students come from families that are transient and have horrible home lives. I don’t fault students for circumstances beyond their control and I certainly don’t believe that I and others are talking about those students when we made our earlier comments. I think, but I could be wrong, but I believe we were referring to parents who just flat out refuse to use any technology even if they have the necessary resources (internet access at home, etc).

    I will finish with this: There are 56.6 million students nationwide who attend K-12 schools.

    https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

    Of that 56.6 million, 1.5 million public school students are homeless, either temporarily or habitually.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/02/03/us/Homeless-students-public-schools.amp.html

    That means that a little over 2.65% of all students are homeless in some form. Thus, what you mentioned involving rampant homelessness would not apply to the vast majority of students (~97%).

    Exceptions rules do not make.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 3:40 PM
  22. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    May 21, 2020 at 6:30 AM

    What statement do you highly disagree with?
    The one where my opinion is that the parent's goal is NOT to make them competitive in a global market because I can almost guarantee their goal is the soul of their child not focused on finding a way where the child will make a lot of money by being "competitive in a global market".

    Or the opinion that the child might be happier in life in the end?
    I know you focus your whole being on making money, but not everyone has the same beliefs or priorities. I'm not saying your drive and focus is wrong for you. It may be hard to believe, but there are people in this world who are religious and poor and are very, very happy. There will always be jobs that can be done without television, internet, and computers. I am not saying the business someone works for will not use them, but the job itself will not require them.
     
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  23. TeacherNY

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    May 21, 2020 at 6:49 AM

    The only invalid point would be if there is a computer/ internet in the home and the parents REFUSE to let the children use it for educational purposes. If they are so concerned about it they could easily disengage the system when the students are not doing school work or can not be supervised.
     
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  24. futuremathsprof

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    May 21, 2020 at 11:34 AM

    Okay, buddy.
     
  25. CaliforniaRPCV

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    May 21, 2020 at 1:50 PM

    Personally, I live in constant shame of my ignorance of so many subjects. I haven't paid enough attention in my life to things like different languages. If I go out into my back yard, I can't identify most of the many plants, birds, insects or other numerous creatures and critters running around, much less know their lifecycles and habits. I don't think I am alone in having shut myself off from so much in this wonderful universe. I could credibly claim that I am a product of my environment. Some of this is a regional thing. I've lived most of my life and spent most of my career where technology is king.

    I can understand the scorn some may have of people like me with an almost exclusively technical background and lifestyle. I am missing out on a great deal. I am working on some of that.

    At the same time, excluding technical knowledge is excluding knowledge. Refusing technical knowledge, or preventing others, like your children, from gaining that knowledge, cuts you and them off from others just as much as the overly technical are cut off from nature and those that have a better appreciation and understanding of nature, or other languages and cultures, etc..

    Willing ignorance is ignorance, and not a good thing.
     
  26. futuremathsprof

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    May 21, 2020 at 3:37 PM

    [​IMG]
     
  27. a2z

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    May 21, 2020 at 4:32 PM

    I guess that begs the question, is everything worth learning? I don't believe everything is worth learning when it may be at the expense of other things.

    Is everything worth learning at the time others deem is the time to learn it? I will also say no.

    What other learning do you sacrifice when learning something else?

    What do we give away because technology makes it "unnecessary" for us to know?

    Are we really teaching kids to learn technology or are we having them use tools that can have dangerous risks associated with them? For the most part we are just using the tools to access information that used to be obtained in other ways.

    For most people, the level of technology knowledge is minimal. Their use of it is heavy. I suggest that any person who is well educated outside of technology could be easily taught to use the technological tools quickly in order to get by in most jobs.

    But if something ever really happens horribly in this world we will be looking for those who know life sustaining skills rather than how to google.
     
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  28. CaliforniaRPCV

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    May 21, 2020 at 6:25 PM

    As human beings we have limitations to how much we can learn. Yes, we all must prioritize. And information systems technology has generally been placed way too high on the list to the exclusion of other things, including other types of technology. But when an actual need arises, I object to deeming certain knowledge somehow evil. As always, any knowledge can be used for evil purposes. Printing/publishing, psychology, biology and chemistry come to mind. Each has been used for evil purposes with seriously devastating results. Each has been used to great benefit.

    It's a cliche, but knowledge is not evil. The use of knowledge often is.

    I wholeheartedly agree that dictating when to learn what can be a serious offense. We are questioning the very core of standards and classroom education here.
    The knowledge needed depends on the truly horrible something. I could imagine circumstances where the use of pretty sophisticated technology to figure out which fish was least radioactive, or to somehow come up with a medicine to treat or prevent some kind of disease might come in handy. Umm...
     
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  29. a2z

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    May 21, 2020 at 6:34 PM

    Agreed.
    I'm not advocating no technology for anyone. I just think that we, as a society, (not you) should be recognizing that one way shouldn't be mandatory for all under the guise of everyone having to be globally competitive.

    We need all types of people with all different types of skills to be a functioning society.
     
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  30. a2z

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    May 21, 2020 at 6:39 PM

    I think the issue with the technology is that the ability to access the evil or have the evil access you is much easier when using technology. The psychology, biology, and chemistry text books in school (particularly k-12) don't have a huge risk of bringing evil to the students. Chemistry can cause a few explosions for those who want to do harm though. Even with close monitoring these things happen in a classroom but not nearly as easily as finding ways to find evil on the internet (even with blockers).

    I know several highly religious families (not quite that strict) and most feel it isn't that they don't want their children learning about certain things, but they want it on their timeline when they feel their children have the capability of discussing the ideas or information in a meaningful and thoughtful way.
     
  31. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    May 21, 2020 at 8:44 PM

    There may be an advantage to all this distance learning. It might bring people back to books. I have to admit, I have worked in a library and I have been a reading teacher. Sure, technology may be useful in some circumstances, but the amount of learning that can be accomplished by reading books is immense. It may be especially important in families who are resistant to using technology. A book is far less of a danger to a student than a dangerous web site.
     
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  32. futuremathsprof

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    May 21, 2020 at 9:17 PM

    Only problem is that libraries are closed right now...
     
  33. YoungTeacherGuy

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    May 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM

    So you'd be okay if your colleagues told you they think you're a weirdo?
     
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  34. futuremathsprof

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    May 22, 2020 at 1:15 AM

    Yes. I am a weirdo in that I do things typically outside of the norm, but I would never tell tell a student that they are weird.

    For example, I don’t plan on ever dating or getting married or having children. I don’t like romance. I don’t mind working 12+ hour days for more money. That is *very* much outside the norm.

    Words have definitions. If you fit the description of an adjective then you are that adjective. That’s how words work.

    I AM weird, lol!
     
  35. CaliforniaRPCV

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    May 22, 2020 at 1:38 AM

    Most libraries are pretty limited, especially these days. And in the best libraries there are computers set up so you can search for books of interest both on and off premises.

    An illustration of the limits of paper libraries can be seen in the history section of this article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_of_inverse_functions
    The same theorem discovered and rediscovered three times over a 50 year period, and rediscovered a number of times after that!
     
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  36. futuremathsprof

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    May 22, 2020 at 8:17 AM

    Actually, mathematicians figure out new proofs for the same theorem all the time. They just discover a new method that was previously unknown. I don’t think that has anything to do with paper libraries.

    For example, 100’s of proofs for the Pythagorean Theorem have been made over the centuries. Paper libraries had nothing to do with that.
     
  37. Ima Teacher

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    May 22, 2020 at 9:09 AM

    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails.
     
  38. CaliforniaRPCV

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    May 22, 2020 at 9:38 AM

    Yes, but it has also been common for theorems to be re-discovered and proved independently because there was no knowledge of the previous discovery. My read of the history in the article is that at least the first three discoveries and proofs of the integral of the inverse function theorem was an example. A few other independent re-discoveries may have happened after those and before the theorem became more common knowledge and proofs became more broadened and refined rather than being re-discovered.
     
  39. Backroads

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    May 22, 2020 at 9:59 AM

    Totally young millennial brother-in-law got his high school diploma and took over the family ranch, providing people with meat.
     
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  40. CaliforniaRPCV

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    May 22, 2020 at 2:06 PM

    But in a polite way.
     
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  41. catnfiddle

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    May 22, 2020 at 2:18 PM

    Let's keep it polite, okay?
    [​IMG]
     
    RainStorm likes this.

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