Student with ODD

Discussion in 'Behavior Management' started by Elcsmith, Apr 8, 2007.

  1. Elcsmith

    Elcsmith Companion

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    Apr 8, 2007

    I need help! I recently took a second grade position at a small school. I'm a first year teacher so I don't have a ton of ideas up my sleeve but need some asap.
    There is a student in my class with ODD. He is a serious disturbance to my class. It angers me that there was no special behavior management program set up for him when I started! It's March, he's had documented problems all year. I've set up a sticker chart for him (only works when he cares) a mentor in the school and he stays after school with me to "help" and comes in early when he can. The sticker chart has to go bc it's turned more into a bargaining tool for him. I can't stand it, to me he needs to EARN those stickers!!
    Administration told me to look the other way when he misbehaves. The thing is I turn my head soooo often with him, I have to draw the line somewhere. For example the other day I turned my head a thousand times. I finally got ANGRY when I looked up during story time and he was going through my person things then moved on to the "talk to me box" which is where students can put any questions or concerns for me. The class went crazy bc they were so scared he was going to read their personal things. It took 3 teachers to get him to the office and if we let go of him he took off running. He's on meds and lives with his aunt. She is very supportive of me but is also struggling with his defiance.
    I have the next week off so I'm really trying to gather ideas before we come back from break. Please any suggestions are welcome!
    Thanks!
    Elizabeth
     
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  3. cutNglue

    cutNglue Magnifico

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    Apr 8, 2007

    I have a student that sounds like that but he isn't ODD, so I may be off base. Feel free to take my suggestions or leave it.

    I suggest going bootcamp on him even though it is April. Immediately put him out and give him a consequence for things (no arguing, no negotiating). Give him a clear warning that you expect cooperation before you start doing this. It shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Give him the choice that he can improve and come back to the circle or whatever the case may be, but don't let him negotiate it. Don't prolong your power struggle. Tell him it is your decision and you aren't discussing it. (that doesn't mean you can briefly tell him why). Use your body language, your tone of voice (go deep) and everything to show your authority. Again, you have to judge the student. It will have the opposite effect on some. Then, following the boot camp theory, as soon as you see a slight improvement, start praising the heck out of it and give very specific reasons why you like what you are seeing. Keep giving it on an ongoing basis verbally and through priveledges. Also take care to talk to him and give him and acknowledge him through conversation. When he feels you care about him enough to be tough on him, care about him enough to get to know him and care about him enough to keep working with him and praising him when he deserves it (on his level), that may help. One more important word...be PROACTIVE. Pay attention to his triggers. Pay attention to when you think he is starting to derail. It's easier to nip it before it starts. You may need to move him away from certain groups or move him closer to you. Do whatever works. Aim for progress, not perfection.

    The student I'm referring to respects me because he knows I'm being real with him and that I care deeply about him and want him to succeed even if I have to ride him all the way for him to accomplish it. Strangely out of all the students in the class, we have the strongest connection because it's been a lot of work to help him improve. He is knows I'm proud of his successes and expect him to keep up the work even when it is hard going.
     
  4. mincc

    mincc Companion

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    Apr 8, 2007

    ELizabeth,

    I can sympathize. My (hubby's) nephew has ODD, along with a slew of other issues. His parents are in denial. It is a mess. He is seeing a new doctor so that may be good. He goes into rages out of nowhere, he does not listen, he laughs at things that are NOT funny, beats up his sister, screams, walks on the floor like a dog and bites people. He will not let you talk to someone-he will SCREAM so you cannot talk. He turns 9 this month. He is FINALLY in a special ed class, he was in general and that was a nightmare. My sister-in-law claimed it was the school, but I think it was HER. She doesnt want to acknowledge her sons' needs. He has warm clothes, food, a nice home, etc. but NO understanding. His dad spends the least amount of time possible with him. Both parents give in and that makes him worse.

    The only times he is good is when you give him a task and tell him how good he did. Providing he likes the task.

    I agree with everything cutNglue said. You must be so stressed. The sad thing is this child is so stressed. There may be a lot of other things going on,too. :( Sometimes the meds are wrong or not dosed right.

    Looking the other way--yeah, my inlaws try that and he just mocks them. He does have GOOD moments. He can be sweet and kind and he is SO smart. He loves my husband. He seems to like men who are authoritive or look that way. His dad is so NOT like that. The man manicures his nails and probably his toes and spends more time on his hair than I do. :rolleyes:

    I hope it gets better, take care. :love:
     
  5. mincc

    mincc Companion

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    Apr 8, 2007

    I forgot...dont know if this helps...he LOVES to do things with his hands, create things. He is calm and engaged. NOT for long, but he will sit and do it. One of his favorites is cooking. He likes using Legos and stuff like that. He does not like to share, but he loves showing off what he has done.
     
  6. cutNglue

    cutNglue Magnifico

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    Apr 9, 2007

    My favorite phrase is, "I do NOT (pause) accept that behavior." I use my best teacher look, my strongest teacher voice and my body language. If they don't move I say, "5, 4, ..." As soon as I see them cooperating, I thank them and let them rejoin. I start noticing positive things to keep them going. I agree with mincc. Be proactive. Try to do things that engages him when possible.

    Our P stopped in from a long medical leave to say "hi". The first thing he told her was a lie about someone hitting someone else. We had already handled it. The behavior specialist was about to approach him about the fact that he was lying. I knew he would just get defensive and belligerant to save face in front of others. So being proactive and knowing the student, I started saying, "Poor Ms. P! Look at her arm. She is hurting. I bet she doesn't want to hear bad stuff yet. I bet she would rather hear good stuff. You should tell her something nice. People like that." So he did. We all gushed over his compliment. The next day he remembered this and when someone won a game and he was about to get all ticked off. I gave him my teacher stare. Then he turned around and complimented the girl then turned around and looked at ME with a half smile. So I nodded my head and smiled a little. That was enough for him. He spent the rest of that time doing the same thing and every time he would look at me. I nodded each time. It made him feel good and we both win.

    When he stomps up and down, gets red in the face, argues with me, etc I don't accept it and he knows it. He tested me in a big way for a while. It took time to train my student. He's calmed way down but I still have to keep teaching him. Key repetitive phrases are also important with him because he honestly doesn't see that he is doing things sometimes. He is PROUD of himself though. He knows he is doing better. He knows I'm okay that he isn't perfect. He has to trust that you mean what you say. Be firm. Be loving. Don't accept the negative behaviors but at the same time be forgiving and a little flexible (aim for progress, not perfection). Just don't engage in power struggles and arguing.

    I love my students. I really do. Thanks for that reminder. Sometimes it is hard. Again, not every approach works on every student. With the girls in my class and one of the boys, if I did that it would backfire. They are too sensitive. So you have to know your kiddos.
     
  7. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Apr 9, 2007

    It sounds like you are doing a great job with him, cutNglue. My young adult son has ODD and it has been a long haul. Meds don't work with ODD, though, since it is often associated with other disorders, they may help similar behaviors.
     
  8. tchecse

    tchecse Companion

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    Apr 10, 2007

    First, request a functional behavior analysis from the child study team. In the interim, keep data on his triggers (which I am sure you have already), what you have tried that worked/didn't work, and what he enjoys (subject wise, activity wise, etc.). I would also suggest trying two other things (which you may have tried already)
    a) a first/then card: place velcro on a laminated piece of construction paper. Make mini pics of your schedules, plus some extra pics of activities he enjoys. Initially, give him one activity-math, for example, and then a enjoyable activity for 5 minutes. ("________ you have _____ minutes to complete your ____ work. Then you can do _____ for ___ min.") Adjust the times/numbers of activities before "preferred activities" as he improves. This will allow the team members to see how long he can attend to non-preferred activities with the promise of a short term reward. Jot down how many prompts he needs to complete activities. Try this for 3 weeks. If he does not show improvement over time, this will serve as excellent quantitative data for the IEP meeting. Plus, this will allow him to make several "good choices" throughout the day versus trying to earn things throughout the entire day.

    B) use a time timer. This is a clock which has a red film attached to the hands. You set the clock for the duration of the activity and it allows him to visually see how much longer he has before a break because the red disappears as time ticks away. This will actually help all the students in regards to time management.

    Also, send a "behavior chart" home for his parent/guardian and mentor to see. Make a mini chart with a box for each part of the daily schedule (even have the specials teachers, lunch monitors, etc to give you a color for their time with him). Get a green, red, yellow stamp set. If he does well-green, so-so yellow, not good-red (i.e. entire class disruption during lesson, had to be removed from classroom, aggression/distructive of property). At first you will have to do this for each activity (another great way to obtain data for the IEP team and will visually show you an instant trend as to trouble times). Eventually, you make him a daily schedule so that he can get the appropriate stamp color from you and keep his chart himself. Have him earn EXTRA time after/before school with you, special activities with the mentor, and small rewards at home based on how many greens per week (this allows tons of opportunities since he has numerous daily chances). This way he is not losing these precious one to one times, but learning self control to earn extras. I would start with 20 greens per week and work up.

    BTW-I think you are awesome to not have given up on this kid and still offer 1:1 time with him despite his behavioral issues. I don't always see that much devotion to children like him from reg. ed. teachers (except of course, from the posters on this site!)
     
  9. Elcsmith

    Elcsmith Companion

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    Apr 13, 2007

    Thank you so much for your suggestions. I plan to try a few of them out starting Monday. I'm a little nervous but I want so badly for him to succeed! As far as the stern talking and counting down go they only seem to make things worse for him. It's almost as if he's thinking "okay if she makes it to one and I still haven't done what she's asked then she'll really be angry." It's all very smug. He does LOVE however when we see each other outside of class. I really try to chat with him a lot during that time. I ran into him a couple of times at the Y this week and he was so excited to see me. I know we're building a relationship so that's good.
    I was also thinking about giving him a cool off area in the room. With things like putty, paper to tear, a stress ball ect. I wanted to put a spray bottle there because there have been studies about the effects of water but I'm worried he's spray other people in the class with it. I'm not sure how I wuold use this in the class though. I don't want to make it something that he sees as a positive so he acts out to get sent there. But I'm also afraid if I make it open to him whenever he'll spend his whole day there. I still feel so lost!
    Thanks for all the wonderful ideas though.
     
  10. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    Apr 21, 2007

    IMHO, ODD is simply an outgrowth of the frustration of living with ADHD. I don't think it's a real disorder.

    The bottom line is that the ADHD needs to be dealt with so that the kid can start being successful. Once that happens, the ODD will fade away.
     
  11. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Sarge, upon what are you basing that opinion? Have you seen this happen? How many times?

    I sure wouldn't count on it.
     
  12. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    Apr 21, 2007

    Just my own experience and feelings having grown up with ADD. It can be very frustrating and often bring out a certain element of defiance in a person.

    My case is relatively minor (my wife will tell you that I get very passive-agressive when she calls me on stuff about which I've dropped the ball.) But I can see how, if my ADD was worse than it is, how I would have an even stronger defiant streak.

    Here's a question. How often is it where there is ODD and ADD or ADHD is not a factor?
     
  13. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Apr 21, 2007

    It does happen.
     
  14. JaimeMarie

    JaimeMarie Moderator

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    Apr 21, 2007

    I worked with a student that has Tourette Syndrome , ADHD, ODD and a bunch of other things. I found that if you ask him to do something, he would yell NO at first but if you gave him a minute to process he complied. He is the sweetest kid in the world. He is now in 3rd grade. His first day in kindergarten he stabbed his neighbor at the table with a pencil because the kid took it from him. He grabbed it back and stabbed the kid right in the back of the hand. We knew we were in for a fun year at that point. He has made such great gains that he doesn't even have an aide any more. Anyway I liked tchecse suggestion. We used pec symbols with him. They worked out wonderfully.
     
  15. Elcsmith

    Elcsmith Companion

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    May 16, 2007

    He does not have any of the typical behaviors associated with ADHD or ADD. He is perfectly capable of staying on task and completing all assignments. He is one of the smartest students I have if not the smartest!
    Usually what triggers it for him is if he doesn't get his way. He does not want to hear any reasoning, compromising NOTHING! You say no and this 8 year old boy is sitting in his chair facing the wall or laying on the floor in the hallway. It's a little absurd!
    However I have found something that works 90% of the time for him. If he refuses to participate then I refuse to speak to him. I send him to his seat or away from me and tell him I'm not ready to talk to him. If we start whole group instruction during this time and he raises his hand to answer I look past him. Basically, I treat him like he doesn't exist until I've cooled down and feel like he deserves my attention again.
    Now, I know this sounds cruel and like I'm neglecting my responsibilities as a teacher but that's not the case at all. I always go back and reassess him later and this whole process takes 5-10 minutes before he's back on task and working hard to get my approval and attention again.
    Since he is a very high student I feel like I can ignore him for a few minutes without worrying that he won't catch back up. Obviously I would not try this with a lower student who needs the extra attention!
     
  16. clarnet73

    clarnet73 Moderator

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    May 16, 2007

    (sorry, I haven't read all the other posts, so sorry if i'm duplicating!)... have you tried offering him, whenp ossible, a limited choice/options? You know, when you ask your kid if they want to wear the tie shoes or the velcro shoes today... it doesn't matter WHICH one they pick, just as long as they DO pick something.

    I'll offer kids a choice to a) sit quietly or b) leave. Give a choice of using crayons OR pencils to complete the assignment. That sort of thing... maybe the feeling of having SOME choice will help? Even if it's sometihng they really DON'T want to do, just having a small say in what's happening can make a BIG difference somtimes (although I've never had experience with ODD kids, so I'm just guessing)... just make sure it's two choices that are acceptable to you (do you want to pick up the red ones or the blue ones first? Which book are you going to put on the shelf... this one or that one?) :)
     
  17. chicagoturtle

    chicagoturtle Fanatic

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    May 17, 2007

    YOu may find the explosive child by ross greene very helpful.....
     
  18. Aida Poo

    Aida Poo Rookie

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    Has anyone ever heard of Intermenttent Explosive Disorder?
     
  19. ellen_a

    ellen_a Groupie

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    May 27, 2007

    Yes.
     
  20. Aida Poo

    Aida Poo Rookie

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    May 27, 2007

    I had a student who was diagnosed with ODD and Intermittent. I believe, after doing a little researching, it's bio-polar (just my opinion). Anyone else seen something like this?
     
  21. ellen_a

    ellen_a Groupie

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    May 27, 2007

    I've seen ODD, Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and Bipolar Disorder in my work as a behavior specialist. I would not equate Intermittent Explosive Disorder with Bipolar Disorder.
     
  22. tracieann

    tracieann Rookie

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    May 27, 2007

    elcsmith I'd love to hear how it's gong with your student now. First of all, your administration has dropped the ball and not supported you. This child needs a plan for next year or it's only going to snowball.

    I teach 3-5 year olds. Last January I had a student transfer from another preschool to my class. He was big for his age, beautiful, seemed very sweet and had a SEIT. We were aware of his issues at the other school - he was the scapegoat for EVERYTHING! even on days he was not there. He was prone to getting upset (you could see the hands start to clench) say inappropriate things to classmates and would lash out physically at others. We gave him the rules of our class and explained our mediation skills. At first when someone would say he did something (as happens in all classrooms) we sat down all parties and began mediation. As he began to realize he would not get blamed for everything, he relaxed. We STILL had outbursts and at one point a very explosive event which luckily his parent was there for. He was diagnosed ADD but I strongly believe he is ODD. I felt he really needed positive reinforcement and needed to feel liked and accepted. I worked VERY hard to form a bond with this child. We saw tremendous growth with this boy in the six months we had with him.

    Good luck in the last few weeks of the school year. You have earned your summer :)
     
  23. Marqmom

    Marqmom New Member

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    May 27, 2007

    I'm new at this, so to read and absorb everything that has been posted has made me feel that this is a great support group for a parent/caregiver and teacher. If I have any concerns or even ideas, this will definately be the place to share.

    Thanks,
    Marqmom
     
  24. pwhatley

    pwhatley Maven

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    Elcsmith, I applaud your efforts to reach and to teach this boy. I don't pretend to know much about ODD, although my daughter was diagnosed ADHD, and for about 4 years, exhibited symptoms of ODD (verified by a psychiatrist). One thing I do know,and this is true for all kids. Try to put away your anger. Some kids will learn your triggers and make you angry just for the fun of it. Others can be crushed by your anger. And all too often, we (adults) say or do things we should not, simply out of anger. I'm not a lovey-dovey type person, but I have learned the hard way to suppress my anger when dealing with children.
     
  25. MissFrizzle

    MissFrizzle Virtuoso

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  26. tracieann

    tracieann Rookie

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    May 27, 2007

    I can't help but think that if I were a child dealing with ADD or ADHD the frustration and anger would errupt at some point at those who don't understand me. Think about it. You're impulsive, inattentive, blamed for things; add on parents or administrators that turn their heads and it's an explosive situation for some children. Thank god for teachers who care and try to reach the child inside the label.
     
  27. MissFrizzle

    MissFrizzle Virtuoso

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    I agree Tracieann.

    Most disorders coexist with other disorders, making life difficult for these kids.
     
  28. Elcsmith

    Elcsmith Companion

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    Jun 1, 2007

    Things are okay with him still. He's decided to take on the role as class clown now. I talked to my students one day when he was out of the room about how it only makes the situation worse when we laugh. They were all very responsive to the talk and refuse to laugh at him anymore. Some even take it as far as saying "that's not funny, you're interrupting Ms. Smith." I love that they have responded so well to this. I would say his outbursts aren't much better but my dealing with them is. I don't let him know I'm angry. I just seperate him from the group and pay no attention to him until I've calmed down. It's the only thing that slightly works.
    I do have to admit though that I'm very scared. There are a lot of changes being made at my school next year and grade level changes. Administration thinks I've done a wonderful job with him. I'm terrified that they are going to loop me to third grade and put him in my class again. Even our specialists walk on egg shells with him. The entire school treats him like a ticking time bomb! I know this should be flattering but I don 't know that I could handle another year!
     
  29. tracieann

    tracieann Rookie

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    Jun 3, 2007

    I kow what you mean. Our preschool has been highly recommended by our district special ed director so we have been inundated with childen who have SEITS's, OT, SLP, etc. I am SO flattered that they love our school and program, but it gets scary sometimes. I have started my Masters this summer in early ed (birth to 6) and special ed. I often think of my little boy like yours. I heard he was suspended briefly at the beginning of the year but is doing better.

    I'm working on 16 yearbooks now, so I'll check in on you later.

    One last thing...While it's been a LONG and difficult year, you should be proud of yourself. You have proven yourself to be able to adapt, connect with a child that no one else seems to want to and look how much you've learned. You are an awsome teacher! Enjoy your summer :)
     
  30. Mable

    Mable Enthusiast

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    Jun 6, 2007

    I had a child in my class this year that was identified with ODD. She is explosive and everyday was a challenge. I did get support from our special ed team if she needed to "chill out" she would be allowed to go to the sped room to do so. They also rewarded her with prizes if she got work done but I think it wasn't the best strategy. I don't know what is.
     
  31. MsWilks13

    MsWilks13 Rookie

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    Jun 11, 2007

    ODD.....

    I had a sugar bear like yours as well. I had to find as many positive things as I could so that we could be on the same "team." I told him, "Let's work together, not against each other." He loved cereal, so anytime I found that he made good choices halfway through the day, I would tell him that if he kept up the good work, he might get a small cup of cereal when it's time to go home.:D

    I am looking forward to work with behavior ONLY, after I finish graduate school, so might as well start practicing now.
     
  32. divey

    divey Companion

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    Jun 11, 2007

    I had a child with ODD this year as well. Last Summer God laid on my heart a strong desire to read "Love and Logic" (Funk and Fay), and I would NOT have had any success with my student without the strategies in that book.

    The biggest suggestion I can make is to NOT allow yourself to argue with this child. THAT is what he is wanting. When you allow yourself to get angry, it is like a high for him. I would lower my voice to almost a whisper, look him straight in the eye, and refuse to argue with him. My biggest catch-phrase was "I'll talk to you when your voice sounds like mine".

    Another thing is that I gave choices for everything! Albeit, they were both choices that would have him do what I wanted him to do (i.e. "would you like to hold my left hand or my right hand to walk to time out?") but nonetheless, it gave him a sense of power over what was happening to him. From what I understand, a child can become ODD when they are abused and lose any sense of control over what is happening to them. Most of the issues with my student were avoided when he felt as though he had some control over the situation.

    By no means, ignore his behavior! I think that it helped my student unbelievably that I was actually treating him like I was treating all of my other students...expecting the same behavior from him! I demanded respect (he had to respond to me with "yes/no ma'am") from the first time I met him. As hard as it is to do, YOU have to be the adult and NOT let yourself get angry (and believe me, there were times when i would be digging my fingernails into the palms of my hands when I was talking to him, so I know it's easier said than done sometimes). If you DO get angry once in a while, that's okay too. Just be sure to verbalize to your student that you get angry too, but then discuss the right way to handle your anger. Sorry to have rambled on and on. Hope some of this "advice" helps.
     
  33. txmomteacher2

    txmomteacher2 Enthusiast

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    Jun 11, 2007

    WOW, working with behavior kids only. WHat a commendable job. I just spent the last year as the behavior teacher at a small south texas scool. I didnt think that it would ever end, and for the most part my kids were pretty well adjusted. All were on meds and only one would cycle in and out of good behavior on a pretty regular basis. We think more along the line that it was the parents of this student that had the issues. We would get him to a good place in school, tell the parent what a great few weeks that he was having and then suddenly he would go off the deep end. Then this paretn would be "oh poor me look what I have to deal with!" There were only a few days that were totally out of control for any given child at my school. In fact next year we are sort of moving away from having a behavior teacher per say. There is still going to be a place for those kids to have quiet time if they need it, but no specific teacher just whatever spec ed teacher is free at that moment. Me, though my days in spec ed are over, at least for now. I am going to kinder next year and looking forward to a new year.
     

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