Student Plea

Discussion in 'General Education Archives' started by Reform, Jun 13, 2006.

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  1. Reform

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    Please read the entire thing

    I am not here to insult you rather I am here to tell you the truth. Schools are in need of major reform and I am not the only person to realize this. We as students are forced into an environment which promotes Obedience, Conformism, and laziness. I am not blaming the teachers in this but rather the system. We are learning nothing. I will give you the fact that yes you as teachers have taught me 1. A good thinking process 2. How to read 3. How to write. Everything else I have learned on my own free time and have enjoyed experiencing learning. But besides probably making you angry this is my argument.

    1)
    Schools trample the right of freedom of speech and expression. This causes people to feel the need to ask for things which should be there own choice motivated by their needs and not wants. Examples: asking to goto the bathroom, raising your hand, never question power. Those are just a few.

    2)
    Physical violence can not be controlled even though people say it is at some level. Schools blame the bully for this or how the other child acts. It Is Not There Fault. They are forced to come to school FORCED, there are no good alternatives to school.

    3)
    Conformism is prevalent because children feel the need to "fit in" decreasing individuality.

    4)
    Mass Boredom, increased laziness. NO ONE LIKES TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO. We are not grades students that have good grades a) Cheat b) behave themselves and "flirt" with the teachers and do there homework ((btw homework is meaningless and useless Teach us dont force us to do things))

    Im calling all of you to rise up realize what I have realized. Stop using the same teaching style the Prussians used to control the masses Please I beg you stand together stand strong. You know there is something wrong deep down inside and students and teachers need to stop blaming each other. Its the system fix it! This is not my entire arguement but just a very small summary I am 16 and my parents are in the millitary. I am currently in NY. Contact me at altrods@gmail.com
     
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  3. Reform

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    I got this in learninfreedom it wont let me link it but here is what it says in case you think I am a rebellious teenager which I am most certainly not. So many I had to post twice.

    One of the most laughable defenses of the government-operated school system, sure to come from the keyboard of hundreds of people who participate in on-line discussion of education policy, is the notion that Nobel Prize winners and other eminent persons prove the effectiveness of our school system. Well, what do the Nobel Prize winners themselves have to say about this? Below are some quotations by or about Nobel Prize winners, describing their views of school. If you know another, please let me know.
    Rabindranath Tagore -- born 1861; died 1941
    winner of the 1913 Nobel Prize in literature
    Tagore was a superb writer and one of the founders of modern Bengali literature. He was the first non-Western author to win the Nobel literature prize.
    [School] forcibly snatches away children from a world full of the mystery of God's own handiwork, full of the suggestiveness of personality. It is a mere method of discipline which refuses to take into account the individual. It is a manufactory specially designed for grinding out uniform results. It follows an imaginary straight line of the average in digging its channel of education. But life's line is not the straight line, for it is fond of playing the see-saw with the line of the average, bringing upon its head the rebuke of the school. For according to the school life is perfect when it allows itself to be treated as dead, to be cut into symmetrical conveniences. And this was the cause of my suffering when I was sent to school. . . . I was not a creation of the schoolmaster,--the Government Board of Education was not consulted when I took birth in the world. But was that any reason why they should wreak vengeance upon me for this oversight of my creator? . . . So my mind had to accept the tight-fitting encasement of the school which, being like the shoes of a mandarin woman, pinched and bruised my nature on all sides and at every movement. I was fortunate enough in extricating myself before insensibility set in.
    "My School," in Personality: Lectures Delivered in America (London: MacMillan and Co., 1921), pp. 114-115
    When I began my life as a poet, the writers in our educated community however took their inspiration from English literature. I suppose it was fortunate for me that I never in my life had what is called an education, that is to say, the kind of school and college training which is considered proper for a boy of respectable family. Though I cannot say I was altogether free from the influence that ruled the young minds of those days, the course of my writings was nevertheless saved from the groove of imitative forms. I believe it was chiefly because I had the good fortune to escape the school training which could set up for me an artificial standard based upon the prescription of the school master. In my versification, vocabulary and ideas I yielded myself to the vagaries of an untutored fancy which brought castigation upon me from critics who were learned, and uproarious laugher from the witty. My ignorance combined with my heresy turned me into a literary outlaw. "Autobiographical" in Talks in China: Lectures Delivered in April and May, 1924 (Calcutta: Visva-Bharati Book-Shop, 1925), p. 37
    Albert Einstein -- born 1879, Ulm, Germany; died 1955
    winner of the 1921 Nobel Prize in physics
    . . . I worked most of the time in the physical laboratory [at the Polytechnic Institute of Zürich], fascinated by the direct contact with experience. The balance of the time I used in the main in order to study at home the works of Kirchoff, Helmholtz, Hertz, etc. . . . In [physics], however, I soon learned to scent out that which was able to lead to fundamentals and to turn aside from everything else, from the multitude of things which clutter up the mind and divert it from the essential. The hitch in this was, of course, the fact that one had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect [upon me] that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year. In justice I must add, moreover, that in Switzerland we had to suffer far less under such coercion, which smothers every truly scientific impulse, than is the case in many another locality. There were altogether only two examinations; aside from these, one could just about do as one pleased. This was especially the case if one had a friend, as did I, who attended the lectures regularly and who worked over their content conscientiously. This gave one freedom in the choice of pursuits until a few months before the examination, a freedom which I enjoyed to a great extent and have gladly taken into the bargain the bad conscience connected with it as by far the lesser evil. It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wreck and ruin without fail. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty. To the contrary, I believe it would be possible to rob even a healthy beast of prey of its voraciousness, if it were possible, with the aid of a whip, to force the beast to devour continuously, even when not hungry, especially if the food, handed out under such coercion, were to be selected accordingly.
    "Autobiographical Notes," in Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, Paul Schilpp, ed. (1951), pp. 17-19 © 1951 by the Library of Living Philosophers, Inc.
    Biographer Albrecht Fölsing's book Albert Einstein: A Biography (New York: Viking, English translation 1997) records Einstein's general high ability in school, which was coupled with a disdain for compulsion and a tendency to do things his own way. Einstein remembered his schooling in both Germany and Switzerland as an unhappy experience, contrary to the recollections of several of his less famous classmates. Yet he got good scores in school subjects when he wanted to, but spent much of his free time at home building with construction model sets or reading serious books about science. Einstein attributed the school problems he sometimes had to an unwillingness to do the work required by his teachers. Thus Einstein, despite the well-documented childhood speech delay in his language development, is best not restrospectively "diagnosed" as learning disabled, but rather regarded as an exceptionally bright, self-motivated learner who refused to waste his time with school activities that did not produce a high return in learning.
    George Bernard Shaw -- born 1856, Dublin; died 1950
    winner of the 1925 Nobel Prize in literature
    . . . and there is, on the whole, nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school. To begin with, it is a prison. But it is in some respects more cruel than a prison. In a prison, for instance, you are not forced to read books written by the warders (who of course would not be warders and governors if they could write readable books), and beaten or otherwise tormented if you cannot remember their utterly unmemorable contents. In the prison you are not forced to sit listening to the turnkeys discoursing without charm or interest on subjects that they don't understand and don't care about, and are therefore incapable of making you understand or care about. In a prison they may torture your body; but they do not torture your brains; and they protect you against violence and outrage from your fellow-prisoners. In a school you have none of these advantages. With the world's bookshelves loaded with fascinating and inspired books, the very manna sent down from Heaven to feed your souls, you are forced to read a hideous imposture called a school book, written by a man who cannot write: A book from which no human can learn anything: a book which, though you may decipher it, you cannot in any fruitful sense read, though the enforced attempt will make you loathe the sight of a book all the rest of your life.
    "A Treatise on Parents and Children," preface to Misalliance (1909), reprinted in Bernard Shaw: Collected Plays with Their Prefaces, volume IV (1972), page 35.
    Sigrid Undset -- born 1882; died 1949
    winner of the 1928 Nobel Prize in literature
    I hated school so intensely. It interfered with my freedom. I avoided the discipline by an elaborate technique of being absent-minded during classes.
    from her autobiographical sketch written for Twentieth Century Authors, Kunitz and Haycraft, editors (1942), page 1432
    Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman -- born 1888; died 1970
    Raman, known as C. V. Raman, was the uncle of a later Nobel laureate, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, the son of Raman's older brother C.S. Ayyar. Both of these Nobel Prize winners benefited from the home education and encouragement of their curiosity chosen by Raman's father and Chandrasekhar's grandfather. Their childhood is described in a recent biography of the younger Nobel laureate.
    C. S. Ayyar's and Raman's primary education was mostly under the tutelage of their father. They learned Tamil, arithmetic, and English at home till they were seven years old, a tradition C. S. Ayyar would continue with his children. For their secondary and higher secondary education, they attended the college in Vizagapatam where their father was the vice-principal and sometimes their teacher. R. C.'s [the father's] zest for learning and his varied interests, as we have seen, were phenomenal. He did his best to pass them on to his children. He was not satisfied to teach them just what was required in English, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and physiography. He urged them to read on their own. "He read with me," recalls Chandra's father in his history, Scott's Lay of the Last Minstrel, Shakespeare's Coriolanus and portions of Milton's Paradise Lost." R. C. shared with his children his love for Indian classical music and his fine collection of books. Chandra: A Biography of S. Chandrasekhar by Kameshwar C. Wali (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1991), page 44 © 1991 The University of Chicago, all rights reserved.
    Raman's parental education helped him graduate from high school at age eleven, finish college at age fifteen, obtain his master's degree at age seventeen, and gain a coveted civil service job by winning the highest score on a competitive examination at age eighteen. But Raman's personal goal was physics research, which he did in his spare time. Eventually he pursued a full-time career in physics, with great success.
    Bertrand Russell -- born 1872; died 1970
    winner of the 1950 Nobel Prize in literature
    The question of home versus school is difficult to argue in the abstract. If ideal homes are contrasted with actual schools, the balance tips one way; if ideal schools are contrasted with actual homes, the balance tips the other way. I have no doubt in my own mind that the ideal school is better than the ideal home, at any rate the ideal urban home, because it allows more light and air, more freedom of movement, and more companionship of contemporaries. But it by no means follows that the actual school will be better than the actual home. The majority of parents feel affection for their children, and this sets limits to the harm they do them. But education authorities have no affection for the children concerned; at best, they are actuated by public spirit, which is directed towards the community as a whole, and not merely towards the children; at worst, they are politicians engaged in squabbles for plums. At present, the home plays an important part in forming the mentality of the young, a part which is by no means wholly good, but perhaps better than that which would be played by the State if it were in sole control of children. Home gives the child experience of affection, and of a small community in which he is important; also of relations with people of both sexes and of different ages, and of the multifarious business of adult life. In this way it is useful as a corrective of the artificial simplification of school.
    Another merit of home is that it preserves the diversity between individuals. If we were all alike, it might be convenient for the bureaucrat and the statistician, but it would be very dull, and would lead to a very unprogressive society. At present, the differences between individuals are greatly accentuated by the differences between their homes. Too much difference is a barrier to social solidarity, but some difference is essential to the best form of co-operation. An orchestra requires men with different talents and, within limits, different tastes; if all men insisted upon playing the trombone, orchestral music would be impossible. Social co-operation, in like manner, requires differences of taste and aptitude, which are less likely to exist if all children are exposed to the same influences than if parental differences are allowed to affect them. This is to my mind an important argument against the Platonic doctrine that children should be wholly reared by the State.
    Education and the Social Order (London: George Allen & Unwin, 1932) pages 69-71; (London: Unwin Books edition, 1967) pages 41-42.
     
  4. Reform

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    Winston Churchill -- born 1874; died 1965
    winner of the 1953 Nobel Prize in literature
    Winston Churchill drew on his excellent memory and penchant for historical investigation to give us a detailed description of his school experience in My Early Life, first published in 1930. Churchill learned to read and do arithmetic at home, in the care of a governess. He was sent to school at age seven, and recalled the experience in these words:
    But now a much worse peril began to threaten. I was to go to school. I was now seven years old, and I was what grown-up people in their offhand way called "a troublesome boy." It appeared that I was to go away from home for many weeks at a stretch in order to do lessons under masters. . . . . Although much that I had heard about school had made a distinctly disagreeable impression on my mind, an impression, I may add, thoroughly borne out by the actual experience, I was also excited and agitated by this great change in my life. I thought in spite of the lessons, it would be fun living with so many other boys, and that we should make friends together and have great adventures. Also, I was told that "school days were the happiest time in one's life." Several grown-up people added that in their day, when they were young, schools were very rough: there was bullying, they didn't get enough to eat, they had "to break the ice in their pitchers" each morning (a thing I had never seen done in my life). But now it was all changed. School life nowadays was one long treat. All the boys enjoyed it. Some of my cousins who were a little older were quite sorry--I was told--to come home for the holidays. Cross-examined the cousins did not confirm this; they only grinned. Anyhow I was perfectly helpless. Irresistible tides drew me swiftly forward. . . . . How I hated this school, and what a life of anxiety I lived there for more than two years. I made very little progress in my lessons, and none at all at games. I counted the days and the hours to the end of every term, when I should return home from this hateful servitude and range my soldiers in line of battle on the nursery floor. The greatest pleasure I had in those days was reading. When I was nine and a half my father gave me Treasure Island, and I remember the delight with which I devoured it. My teachers saw me at once backward and precocious, reading books beyond my years and yet at the bottom of the Form. They were offended. They had large resources of compulsion at their disposal, but I was stubborn. Where my reason, imagination or interest were not engaged, I would not or I could not learn.
    My Early Life (1988 reprint), pages 8-9, 12-13.
    Richard Feynman
    co-winner of the 1965 Nobel Prize in physics
    A number of recent books have been written about the colorful life of Feynman, one of the younger and more crucial members of the Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb for the Allies during World War II, and member of the special commission that investigated the explosion of the space shuttle Challenger. Feynman's biographers note that Feynman was largely self-educated by avid reading and conversations with his father, who had in mind to bring up a scientist. (Feynman's younger sister Joan also became a physicist in response to this home influence.)
    The New York public schools of that era gained a reputation later for high quality, partly because of the nostalgic reminiscences of famous alumni. Feynman himself thought that his grammar school, Public School 39, had been stultifyingly barren: "an intellectual desert." At first he learned more at home, often from the encyclopedia. Having trained himself in rudimentary algebra, he once concocted a set of four equations and four unknowns and showed it off to his arithmetic teacher, along with his methodical solution. She was impressed but mystified; she had to take it to the principal to find out whether it was correct.
    James Gleick Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman (1992), p. 30 © 1992 James Gleick, all rights reserved.
    Andrei Sakharov
    winner of the 1975 Nobel Prize for world peace
    Soviet dissident Andrei Sakharov thought school was a "waste of time" after his homeschooling during Stalin's rule, which is described in his memoirs. That rare educational background perhaps accounts for his intellectual courage and willingness to resist tyranny even at the risk of his own life.
    Arno Penzias
    co-winner of the 1978 Nobel Prize in physics
    Arno Penzias, the Nobel Laureate in Physics who is vice president of research at AT&T Bell Laboratories, predicts the market will demand not fancy degrees but experience. "I think we've tied acquiring knowledge too much to school," says Penzias.
    Philip E. Ross, in "Software as Career Threat," Forbes, May 22, 1995
    Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar -- born 1910, Lahore, India;
    winner of the 1983 Nobel Prize in physics
    Chandrasekhar is the nephew of Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman, a 1930 Nobel laureate in physics. His childhood education is described in some detail in his biography.
    . . . . Chandra started studying [at age five]; he learned Tamil from his mother, English and arithmetic from his father.
    Chandra's parents began all their children's education at home. This practice was common among middle-class families, since the public or municipal schools were poorly run. . . . .

    Above all, parents in the middle or upper-middle class found teaching their children a pleasant diversion from their dull clerical or bureaucratic work. Besides, English was not taught in the primary schools, and parents who had English education were eager to begin their children's English lessons as soon as possible. . . . .

    Chandra's home education was quite disciplined. Recalling those early years, he says, "My father used to teach me in the mornings before he went to the office. . . Chandra: A Biography of S. Chandrasekhar by Kameshwar C. Wali (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1991) © 1991 The University of Chicago, all rights reserved.

    An Exception--A Nobel Prize Winner Who Liked School
    Carleton Gajdusek
    co-winner of the 1976 Nobel Prize in medicine
    Perhaps because it has been very rare in the twentieth century to receive medical training without many years of previous schooling, I rarely find autobiographical statements by winners of the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology that indicate that they actively disliked school, although some of the medicine and physiology prize winners make clear that they learned much of what they learned about nature in their youths from personal activities such as walks in the woods. Carleton Gajdusek won the Nobel Prize for his undeniably important work on what were then known as "slow viruses" (now usually conceived of as not viruses at all, but prions). He wrote in his Nobel Lecture autobiographical statement that he personally liked school. Alas, Gajdusek was sentenced to prison for child molestation a few years ago, and it appears as a result of investigation of his research notebooks that his socialization throughout his adult life consisted of repeated sexual encounters with boys from Third World countries, which were Gajdusek's favorite places to travel to do medical research.
    [Nobel Prize Winners Hate School last revised 24 July 2003]


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  5. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Jun 13, 2006

    I would think that anyone as brilliant as those Nobel Prize winners could probably learn anywhere.
     
  6. Reform

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    Suprising was Einstein's grades then. Grades do not properly define how much one has learned and make people that are smart look "dumb".
     
  7. MissV

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    Jun 14, 2006

    *raises an eyebrow*

    Reform,
    You seem like a girl with a lot of pent up anger. Yes, the world of education is not perfect, but it is a wheel that nevertheless turns under the cogs of high stakes testing pressure and low funds.

    In your first paragraph you say you do not blame the teachers, then in all subsequent arguments you basically point the blame TO the teachers. You also do not seem to know about the education process, and by your utter ignorance of the topic, I am assuming you have not even deemed it worthy to research.

    In your first "point" you claimed that schools trample on a student's right to free speech and expression... being "forced" to raise hands, having to "ask" to use the restroom. It's very procedural. In a group of 20 or 30 students, I would imagine it would be very difficult if everyone were to speak at once. You ask to use the restroom so that the instructor knows where you are. (You are in their care, and your teachers are responsible not only for you, but knowing your whereabouts.)
    Oh, and respecting elders and authority is a life lesson you should learn. Especially if you hope to get a job...eventually... someday.

    #2. Our school has a no tolerance policy for physical violence. If you are the victim of physical/emotional violence, there are plenty of capable adults at your school that can help you. "no child left behind" says that everyone needs to be educated regardless of socio-economic status, ethnicity,..in your case..personality issues.
    But that in no way changes the fact that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions. A bully is physically/emotionally violent because of his/her lack of making good/responsible decisions, not because of his/her environment. And there is an alternative, It's called dropping out and getting a GED.

    #3. Children (I assume you mean students) feel the need to "fit in". I was in high school 4 years ago, and that statement is balogna. You feel the need to "fit in" if the only thing you have going for yourself is the opinions of other people. The whole "fit in" thing has absolutely nothing to do with a school atmosphere and everything to do with teenager persona. Your cool new Mudd jeans aren't going to affect whether or not you can work out math problems (unless of course they are so tight you can't breath).

    #4. By saying you are bored and lazy, you are saying that you have a bad attitude about the whole process. A lot of teachers don't want to do "fun" projects because their students respond to it with the same bored/lazy attitude as everything else. Besides, life isn't all rosey and fun. High school has been provided for your benefit; use it. Perhaps some class changes would liven your schedule (and attitude) up a bit.

    Oh, and homework is an assessment tool. Teachers use it to see what you've learned. The "point" is so the teacher can see what the class is doing well with and what the class may need to review.

    Yes, and "no one likes to be told what to do." To bad you'll be getting told what to do the rest of your life :D

    About your "good student" comments... I was an A student and I didn't cheat or "flirt with my teachers". I was overly talkative, but I did my work and was very respectful to my instructors.

    It's very humorous that you are requesting other teachers to "rise up to the truth". It's almost as if you /actually/ believe that there is some kind of internal conflict between instructors and students. Or that teachers don't actually try to teach their students. Or that the opinions of Nobel prize winners have anything to do with this discussion at all.

    Contrary to your supposed "bad" experiences, there are MANY wonderful teachers out here who are trying to make positive enriching experiences for their classes. And there are also a lot of bratty know-it-alls that ruin those experiences for everyone.

    If you've got real issues, post them very clearly one at a time so we can debate them. Though this forum is much more useful as a suggestion board.
     
  8. Reform

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    You're right about one thing I definatly came out to hard on you if I expected you to take my side. You say I am ignorant but you provide no passable reason to explain anything except for I should respect authority. Didn't we fight the revolutionary war so we could have the right to stand up for what we believe? We are living in America are we not. How do you explain the increased suicides of children correlating with the increase of schools? How do you explain colombine and other school shootings? I for one was bullied in middle school which left me shy and quiet in high school. Now I do have a lot of friends and I get angry whenver they "bully" someone else, but I dont stop them in fear of having no friends. I am not a girl what makes you think that? My style of writing, I could of wrote it all in Bold uppercase but I didn't. You say you are our caretakers and we have to raise our hands because you need to know where we are at all times. Come on now thats total bullshit if I got to go pee you don't need to know. My parents are my caretakers not you. Teachers are there to Teach not to play the role of parents and not to put morals and values into our heads, not to torture us with grades and homework and 9 hour workdays 180 days out of the year. There are only a few kids that like school they were always weird to me never smart only worked hard. Im sorry to say but the most successfull people in the world never did well in school unless their parents were already rich. Not to mention genderwise girls do better in school because of other predjuidices people hold, same when a female teacher has sex with a male student usually gets less time or is "forgiven" but when a male teacher has sex with a female student all hell breaks loose. I don't hate the world, for all we know we could be in a simulted reality or in the dream of sleeping giant but what I do know is school has destroyed many peoples lives and gives very little benefit to people. I am not saying teaching is a bad idea but its not being done the right way. Grades/obdience/forced schooling/Detention hinder the process of learning and destroy the weak-minded individual. add, adhd,most unconfirmable learning disabilites didnt exist 60 years ago chemical imbalance ... give me a break ;o.
     
  9. Upsadaisy

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    Jun 14, 2006

    I didn't say they got good grades, I said they learned.
     
  10. Reform

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    I know I was using it to strengthen my point that grades are useless. Also most of them learned on their free time.
     
  11. year#1

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    Jun 14, 2006

    Perhaps off the point, but raising your hand and asking to go to the bathroom are procedures, just as stopping at a red light, slowing at a yellow light, and proceding at a green light are procedures. Can you imagine the chaos if such procedures did not exist? They are set into place, not to violate your rights, but to provide a standard of behavior. Such standards have been accepted by society at large. An interesting thought at least....
     
  12. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Jun 14, 2006

    Well, grades don't necessarily prove that the student has learned. Notice I said necessarily. I, myself, don't even care about grades very much, though I do care about the students learning and moving forward from whatever point they begin, and about them taking the task of learning seriously. However, the rest of the world into which they will be launched (college, first of all) uses grades, among other things, as a benchmark to compare students. You can't just ignore that if you want to go to college.

    I tell my students that grades are not that important to me. I also talk to my middle schoolers, some of whom have already chosen an area of emphasis for high school magnet programs, what classes they need to take and what grades they need to get into those programs. Some of them are motivated because, say, they want to go into a science and technology magnet high school. They will only be able to apply to that magnet if they have passed certain advanced math classes in middle school. So, actually, as far back as 5th grade can determine if they can get into the magnet they are interested in.

    I don't think every smart person has to go to college, even. But, just to blow off requirements in the real world because you look down on them doesn't help someone get to any goals they may have. Believe me, I have kids, and one who has done just that. It isn't a pretty future.
     
  13. Reform

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    Stopping at a red light is standard procedure for everybody but raising your hand to goto the bathroom is not. Imagine if you had to ask to breathe thats similar to asking to goto the bathroom they are both needs. They don't have stop lights in europe and they seem to drive safer perhaps your right about stop lights but you do realize that not stopping puts everyone at risk of possible death when going to the bathroom without raising your hand puts no one at risk. Rules only need to be placed when it affects other people's rights not when we feel like making them.
     
  14. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    True. Kids leaving the class right and left usually cause at least a little interruption and distraction for others. Also, I would never tell a child they couldn't leave the room, but, since I am responsible for him or her, I better know where that child is going.
     
  15. MissV

    MissV Companion

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    I assumed you were a girl, because you write like one of my girl scouts. All of your ideas are blended together, and you have no breaks between thoughts. Typically the females are of the more wordy variety at age 16.

    I don't think you're "coming down hard" on anyone. I think you're making absolutely bogus statements and trying to justify them with steriotypes. I am probably the youngest teacher that you are ever going to encounter, and since I was in middle/high school not to long ago, I know far more about the issues you are dealing with than you think.

    I was bullied in middle school. It was a big deal then because I was a kid. I learned from it, and time went on. In high school I would stand up for the "picked on" kids, and what do you know, people stopped picking on them!!

    If your FRIENDS are picking on someone, then surely you can tell them to stop. Only a pathetic person "lets" their friends treat other people like crap.

    And I never said that teachers were your caretakers, I said that we are responsible for your well being while you are at school. By law, we HAVE TO KNOW where you are. You can't just go randomly walking off somewhere because you feel like it. You can't even do that as an ADULT. You tell someone where you are. I teach elementary school. We have fire drills all the time. What on earth would I tell the principal if I lost a child? Oops, well I'm not sure where Johnny is, hopefully he won't do this in a real fire.

    Procedures are set for your safety, whether you think you need them or not... Kind of like the safety belt law. I'm suprised that you actually had to ask why procedures important, you should be smart enough to figure that out on your own.

    Also, students are in the care of teachers almost the same amount of waking hours that parents are. It is important that they also have high expectations of their students. Part of our job is to teach you how to become an upstanding community citizen. That requires teaching about "character education" and "positive values."

    A lot of parents don't even think to spend any time on the subject. Your parents apparantly didn't teach *you* that it is impolite to curse in public. Of course a lot of good old fashioned punishment is falling by the wayside nowadays. My father would have beat me senseless if he caught me writing the tripe you just wrote.

    And sorry to burst your bubble but MOST of the /successful/ people in the world that you mentioned earlier grew up in other countries -- out of context with United States education system. In many other countries, only the top students are ALLOWED to go to school, because frankly it's too hard for the less intelligent pupils.

    You also seem to state a lot of things as fact when they are not. "Most of the successfull people in the world never did well unless their parents were rich."

    Not only is that statement WRONG, it doesn't even make sense. Most of the success stories I hear are "Average Joe makes it big!" My parents make a combined income of $30,000 a year. They own a very small business. Regardless of that fact, my brother and I both won scholarships to the schools of our choice, I graduated with Cum Laude status in 2 years time. Many of the individuals I graduated with in high school now have similar success stories. The "whiners" and "complainers" don't have success stories, and they ironically still whine and complain about their apparant loss.

    School is what you make of it. It's very easy to diss the system when you don't understand how it works, and how it improves your chance at a good future. You can complain all you want on how you are being "tortured", when in reality you are going to look back on your high school years and wish to GOODNESS you had enjoyed it. Teachers are trying to get you ready for what lies ahead. If you can't take it "now" then I seriously doubt that you are going to cut it in the job world.

    Also, people can read what I write on this forum, you don't have to quote everything I say. I know what I said, just respond.

    Also, sex offenders have nothing to do with your argument at all, and for the sake of making this discussion tasteful, leave them out.
     
  16. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Jun 14, 2006

    Clearly you're frustrated, Reform. Polemic of the sort you're engaging in here can be a release of frustration, not to mention great fun, though there's always the risk that one will antagonize at least as many people as one rallies to one's cause.

    Let me note, though, an error of fact of the sort that tends to undermine one's credibility:

    Under laws passed by legislators and not teachers, and under laws confirmed by courts and not teachers, with respect to public school students it IS in fact the case that the schools are in a caretaker role: the legal name for this is in loco parentis, 'in the place of the parents'. In fact, schools have been sued (and in some cases successfully) by parents who believed the schools' efforts in loco parentis hadn't gone far enough.

    The doctrine of in loco parentis has to some extent been struck down with respect to college students, though even there the courts have held that universities have an in loco parentis-like responsibility for the security of their students (that is, I think, the legal basis for campus policies that promote politically correct speech).

    In any case, this doctrine remains in place because it is in the interest of parents and of society.
     
  17. Reform

    Reform Rookie

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    Parents are responsible for their kids and high school kids should be responsible for themselves. Teachers are their to teach kids will not be leaving the room left and right if they are interested in what you are teaching don't you think they would want to stay. Kids skip school because they think its cool because schooling is Mandatory if you are forced to do something they are forced to rebel same with beer. The drinking age in Belgium is 16 even though no one enforces it. Belgians rarely have problems with their children running riots, shooting deaths in Belgium are so low it makes us look like terrible people. Look at Europe they may not have a giant economy like us but they are going to surpass us when they finally fix themselves up and modernize.
    In european countries ((like Belgium)) their kids have far surpassed ours in learning because when you go there you are not forced to take PE and the grading system isnt so harsh like ours they dont have it perfect either but they do it a lot better. If you tell them you want to be a translator when you grow up your entire day is filled with language classes. Grades demoralize kids and the way we learn in schools is far to generalized. If I enjoy math it should not take me 4 years to go through 4 math books maybe 4 math books in 2-3 months. Teachers are not the problem the system is Grades and Homework are terrible. Tests work just fine kids should never pass because they worked hard and tried they should pass because they worked hard and tried while learning. I have learned most of what I know from outside sources. Books, the internet, scholars, essays. I have learned very little from school except a good method to look at things and how to read.

    Grades, homework, bells schedules, asking if we can do things that are needed, Being forced to goto school, and being asked why are you are leaving the room is degrading. We are humans Teachers are not superior nor do they have any right to rule over us like we are evil dumb beings that need to be monoitored at all times. One of the best teachers I have met who worked by these standards inspired me to expand my learning venture from school learn. She once said age is just a number and when people figure out that once people stop ignoring the kids the future of the world may be brighter.
     
  18. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Jun 14, 2006

    You could always move to Belgium.
     
  19. MissV

    MissV Companion

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    Uh. You need to pay more attention in school. Not only do you not know why the Revolutionary War was fought, you just categorized all of Europe into one category. That's like saying that the United States should be economically analyzed with Mexico. And for your information, England is a CORE country. They are VERY economically stable. Their standard unit of money is worth more than ours!

    You also continue to use the words "their" and "there" incorrectly. Also, don't use words that you don't know. You used the word "demoralize" inappropriately.

    Grades and homework are not part of the system. Teachers set the criteria for grades, and decide whether or not to use homework.
    School isn't about discovering what knowledge is in 4 different math books, it's about applying the knowledge you know in a meaningful way. You can learn the Pathagorean theorum in 2 minutes, it takes substantially more time than that to learn what it is used for and how to apply it to real life scenarios.

    And a side note: A diploma is very generalized. High school represents the basic knowledge that ever citizen needs to know. You specialize in your field in college.
     
  20. Reform

    Reform Rookie

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    Missv when I meant successfull I meant a) very very rich like Bill gates or b) remebered like George Washington who had no schooling but would you dare insult him?

    What if I don't want to be part of the modern day work force being forced into a cubicle or working long hours while the guy incharge is a millionare doing very little. I would rather start a buisness, I do not want to be part of the "workforce". How do we expect to have more albert Einsteins if we want everyone to join the workforce. How will the stock market function? How will people get rich? Why start the cycle all over again with children living and growing up in the middle to working class. Where does money and power come from? Why do we strive to obtain things that we created ourselves. Why do we strive to destroy our humanity. Why must we crush the individual and create a collective. Why does everyone feel the need to force themselves into jobs they truly do not enjoy because the guidance consuler told them to be nurses, firemen, doctors. If you truly enjoy doing something do it.

    No man or women can tell me when I have to pee where I have to work what I have to do. School is killing natural born leaders and idealists. Hardwork overides learning. people are developing more and more psychological problems. Depression, insanity the attempt to tame the last thing we as the human race have left that is still untame. The interenet is the perfect society everyone is equal and we can learn what we want when we want to. Everyone is a person people aren't born evil they are made evil.
     
  21. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    Jun 14, 2006


    You worry that we have too much "control" over your life, but we are also ignoring you?
     
  22. MissV

    MissV Companion

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    I teach because not only do I love it, I am amazingly good at it. My parents run a small Oil Distribution Company, and though they make very little money a year, they saved up and have invested wisely. They also work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day to keep the business going. They don't have much time for lunch, but are internally motivated. They sure as heck tell each other where they are, what they're doing, and where they're going. It's very important that they are able to quickly contact each other at all times. (As is the case with most jobs)

    George Washington didn't have the opportunities that you have, but he almost died to make sure that *you* will. You take a lot of things for granted.

    Meanwhile, stop whining and complaining. If you don't have real issues/concerns, then stop posting.

    I'm curious to know what you want to be 'when you grow up.' It's going to be incredibly funny when you get out in the real world.

    [The internet does not make everyone equal, by the way. And it isn't a society. And contrary to popular belief, not everything on it is fact. Oh, and guidance councelors have nothing to do with your decision of job choice. ]
     
  23. Kat53

    Kat53 Devotee

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    Jun 14, 2006

    Even owning a small business, where there is no " authority" over you, you will still need to follow building codes and regulations, so , yes, someone will always be telling you what to do. And if you desire to be a business owner, and "free" from someone else's rules, you will still be enforcing rules on your employees. Imagine running a business, where there is no employee accountability, and everyone gets to set their own hours, rules, work ethic, etc. Do you think that would run smoothly?
     
  24. Reform

    Reform Rookie

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    Mrsc ingoring what they need but still trying to maintain control over them.

    MissV

    I lived in europe they use the Euro which is worth more than the dollar. Britian uses the pound which is worth way more than the dollar. Europe banded together to create the euro so they could compete with us. This is a message board there and their are used incorrectly 95% of the time while typing to fast and not checking it over. This is not an essay I am trying to write here if it was it would be far more detailed. I lived in Europe for 4 years and have been to many countries I only catogrized them into "europe" to strengthen my arguement. I have also felt very little attempt for teachers to help me learn to apply things to real life.
     
  25. Reform

    Reform Rookie

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    I am not an anarchist I said before that rules need to be placed if they affect another persons ability to be do what they please. Missv I would right another long paragraph except it is quite obvious our views are very different you being conservative on this topic and me being very radical I think it is best if we refrain from insulting each other as I will stop insulting you.
     
  26. Beth2004

    Beth2004 Maven

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    If that is indeed the case, then that is very sad for you. To generalize and put all teachers into that category, however, is a major mistake on your part. Also, as others have stated, if you're going in to school with such a negative outlook then maybe it is partially your fault. You're only going to get out as much as you put in.
     
  27. Reform

    Reform Rookie

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    My view wasn't always negative but since I am pretty radical on this subject I find myself getting angry with teachers even though I don't think teachers are to blame but more of school boards, laws, and the system.
     
  28. TheConspiracy

    TheConspiracy Companion

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    Jun 14, 2006

    I think this discussion has devolved to the point where there is an impasse - and arguing with a teenager bent on rebellion creates a no-win situation.

    One has to wonder about the motivations of a student who would go to an online support board to stir the pot. S/he is spending an awful lot of time attacking the wrong group of people. The kinds of teachers s/he would have an issue with would be unlikely to be on a support board. This is a place for teachers who care.

    Rebelling and over-confidence in one's own superior knowledge of the world is part of being a teenager. S/he has gotten it out of h/er/is system now and all we can do is leave it alone and trust that as s/he gets older s/he will understand that s/he really knew little about the world as a teenager (we always think we won't come to realize how little we really know - but we always do!)

    I think it is time to put our focus back on teacher support.

    ~J
     
  29. Malcolm

    Malcolm Enthusiast

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    I'd love to spend the time responding to some of your points, but I don't have time because I just started a year long credential program.

    Some disconnected thoughts on this...

    "Life sucks, then you die." Life isn't fair. You aren't going to be able to do a thing about most of the problems in the world. Get used to it.

    In general, nobody cares what you, I or anybody else, think. Make the best of your situation.

    High school is preparation for what you are going to experience in the work world. If you think high school is bad, wait until you land a real job and find out what the working conditions are and what you can get fired for.

    I have no doubt that the quality of instruction should be raised. There are too many teachers for whom teaching is no more than a pay check. They should be replaced by teachers who want to teach and have the talent to succeed at it. Unfortunately, because of inertia and tenure, I don't see this happening in most districts in our lifetime. Some districts are working hard to improve the quality of their teachers and programs. But it is a long, slow process.

    Violence is the responsibility of the student instigating it. You are responsible for your own actions.

    There is no excuse for cheating. The end does not justify the means. The only person you are cheating is yourself, because you are not learning something you need to learn.

    Parents deserve a large part of the blame for the problems in today's schools.

    Man, some of your "facts" are way off base. You really need to do more research sometimes. For instance, George Washington didn't receive the extent of formal education that his brothers did, benefited from informal education, and sometimes felt he wasn't as educated as he should be, but he certainly wasn't uneducated.
     
  30. Music Doc

    Music Doc Habitué

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    Jun 14, 2006

    It appears to me that someone needs to do a serious amount of growing up.

    To say you have learned to write and then create such a poorly constructed post is a negation of the original statement.

    You "dont like being told what to do?" - Welcome to the world, my dear. NO ONE likes being told what to do....however, maturity and self-discipline require it from time to time. I don't like it being stipulated that I must be in my building by 7:10 am in order to teach my first class at 7:25. I would much rather sleep until later in the morning. However, I have the maturity and the discipline to realize what would result should I not be there. Part of life is learning that sometimes, the individual must submit to the needs of the larger picture.

    I'm sorry...the whole post sounds like perhaps you need some cheese to go with the whine...I don't believe we should even spend time addressing such drivel any further.
     
  31. SmartCookie

    SmartCookie Comrade

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    Jun 14, 2006

    I have found this entire discourse to be rather inane. Reform, if you have all the answers you should be a politician. The world needs political activist. I only hope that you listen to your teachers long enough to learn how to communicate in a effective manner with other edcuated adults. As your teenage hormones begin to level off you will see the situation more clearly.
     
  32. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Reform, you must be part of the change you want to see in the world. When you are an adult, you may teach your children as you see fit.

    To continue this thread on a professional teaching site would be pointless. Therefore, it is now closed.
     
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