Situation with parent

Discussion in 'Special Education' started by waterfall, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Sep 11, 2011

    We got a lot of new students at my school, and they're from quite a different demographic than we're used too. Most of them are extremely wealthy, and for the first time I'm having to deal with some "high maintnence" parents. One of my new students is a 3rd grader. His mom came in to observe my class last year when she was still deciding if she wanted him to come to our school or not. Her son struggles with decoding skills, and she asked me to show her any programs I used for that. We have orton gillingham, so I showed her the program and how it worked. Obviously, she decided to bring him to our school. I'm not going to go into any details, but already in the first 2 weeks, she's had some MAJOR run-ins with the gen ed classroom teacher, and said some very insulting things about other students in the class.

    She came to talk to me, and she told me that she had bought the orton gillingham program online and had been doing it with her son over the summer. (Again, what a change!) Don't get me wrong, I love that she's involved and helping her son at home, as it does make a huge difference in progress. However, from other comments she has made, I defnitely get the vibe that she is one of those parents who think their child will "outgrow" a learning disability or with the right teacher/program, will "get smart enough" to not need the IEP anymore. She wanted to show me what he could already do, so I knew where to start. I told her that was fine and I'd be happy to sit down with them at back to school night. They came in and the boy did know quite a bit from the beginning of the program. So far, I've had no negative experiences with her myself, so all is good.

    However, then she starts talking about his IEP. Right now, the only services he has are 20 minutes twice a week for reading pull out. That is less than even gen ed kids in title 1 get! I don't know if this is typical of the school he came from (a charter), or if she fought to have his pull out time so low. The problem is, I don't think I can follow the program with fidelity only seeing this child twice a week for 20 minutes. My other students in the program see me four days a week for 30 minutes minimum. She also mentioned that he should be pulled out during reading time in the classroom. Although I agree it would be great if I could do that for everyone, I simply can't. All of the classrooms do whole group reading at the exact same time and I can't pull from that at all. I can take them for independent work time of literacy block, but I already have a bigger group I see during that time, specifically scheduled that way because I re-teach the same concept they learned in whole group. I can make sure I don't pull this student out of any whole group lessons, but his time is going to have to be during independent work time for another subject (writing, for example). I'm afraid mom is not going to accept that. The student has an annual review in about 2 weeks, so I told mom that I'd start by following his current IEP, and then at the meeting we'd talk about the service hours and what we wanted to do for the future. How do I handle this situation with the program? I mean, she went out and bought it (I'm sure it's expensive) and taught him it all summer, so I assume she's going to be very upset if I don't use it with him. However, if I use it and literally triple his time out of the gen ed classroom to be able to do it, she's going to be upset about that too. I've seen what happens there with situations with the gen ed teacher and P- she is not someone who is easily placated. What should I do?
     
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  3. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Sep 12, 2011

    Tell the parent to call for an IEP meeting if they want OG to be performed with fidelity.
     
  4. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Like I said, we're already having the meeting in two weeks.

    Here's a new twist though...I finally got all of this student's paperwork from the charter today. So far, I've been going off what mom said. It turns out this student is NOT on a reading IEP, and has nothing about reading goals, a reading disability, or services from the special education teacher on it at all. It's a speech only IEP, and the parents haven't even contacted the SLP at all, but have talked to me several times and bought my reading program???

    So legally, I can't put anything on the kid's IEP for me, or see him at all now. We can put him into our RtI process, but orton gillingham isn't going to be the first step we take there- he'll have to be in a tier 2 intervention first. Seeing as how mom bought the program, she is NOT going to be happy about this one. According to classroom data, the student is behind, but not overly so. I don't know that we'd ever get to the point where we would decide he needed something as intensive as OG. However, mom has been gushing about how great she thinks the program is and how well he's doing at home.
     
  5. bros

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    Maybe the charter didn't like to recognize reading disabilities, so they didn't put anything regarding them on the IEP?

    My school refused to put in the IEP that I couldn't write or had motor skill issues or underdeveloped muscles or ADHD, so they never gave me remediation for it after I was mainstreamed from the self-contained class. The closest they'd put was "allow typewritten work for all work"
     
  6. agdamity

    agdamity Fanatic

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    There's nothing stopping Mom from continuing the program at home. Is there someone above you (ie, special services director) who can sit in on the meeting to explain to Mom why her son will only be pulled for slp and to discuss the RtI process? I would explain the data and the law as it is written and make sure she knows you can't legally change that, but here is something extra (RtI) you are willing to do to help her son. Try to make it seem like something special. You never know, if she really doesn't want him pulled out of class, this may be easier than you think.
     
  7. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    I don't know anything about the charter's special education program, but overall this school has an excellent academic reputation. They've been at 100% passing state tests for years too. I find it hard to believe that they'd ignore a reading disability, especially since I know for sure they do have a special education teacher and not just an SLP- if they're not diagnosing reading disabilities, what would the special ed teacher do? I'm assuming this student was going through some sort of RtI or something to be receiving the 20 minutes of pull out, but we got no data or anything, so we can't really start from where they left off. At least, I'm hoping that's the case and it's not that mom lied about him receiving any services, since that does seem to be what happened with the IEP (her saying it was for reading).
     
  8. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Our AP is the admin at my school who sort of oversees any issues with RtI or special ed (our director is useless). I did tell him about the situation and he suggested we ask both familes (it's a divorce situation) if they'd like to come in before the official IEP meeting to discuss RtI and what we can do in regards to reading. Mom sent me a two page e-mail today detailing everything we've already talked about and asking when we could begin the OG program at school, and asked me to send her weekly updates. I just feel bad that I've been going on about this program that I'm going to be using with him, and now that's not going to happen. So I have to e-mail mom back and ask her if she wants to come in, and somehow say something about the IEP being for speech. I'm just nervous about what to say without making it sound like "we only had discussed using this program/these services because you told us he was on a reading IEP."
     
  9. agdamity

    agdamity Fanatic

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    Just tell her that after receiving and reviewing the documents from the other school her son will receive services is slp. Is the slp for language or articulation issues? Our slps that work on language often use reading skills so maybe that's where mom was confused?
     
  10. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Yeah, our SLP sometimes does reading as well, but mom knew full well that I'm the special ed teacher and not the SLP and she hasn't talked to the SLP or even asked about her or speech services at all. In fact, mom's original comment was "he had a speech IEP too but we think he's grown out of that." I assumed he was either just on consult for the SLP, or that our SLP could meet with the student and decide if she wanted to just put him on consult with her this year. Of course, this is when I had no idea that the IEP was in fact not for reading and assumed the SLP would be the secondary person. In all honesty, the IEP was poorly written so it was hard to tell if it was language or articulation. One of the goals was, ______ will increase phonemic awareness. That's it. I assume the SLP will be able to figure it out more than I could. The charter also uses a completely different IEP format than we do.

    Mom has asked me numerous times about when I'll be starting the OG program with him, but I kept telling her I needed to see the IEP for service hours and goals. I also told her that we'd start by following the current IEP and then discuss if we wanted to add more reading time (again, assuming the little reading time he had was from the IEP) at his upcoming meeting. I'm afraid she's going to say I lied to her now- since I made it seem like all we had to do was talk about it as a team, when in fact he'll need to go through an extremely lengthy RtI process to even think about getting on a reading IEP.
     
  11. bros

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    Sep 13, 2011

    I'm a bit wary of high performing schools, as sometimes they try to not teach students anything, no remediation, just get them to get good scores on the test.

    perhaps the student was getting RTI for reading (Although that would make no sense, as the student is already on an IEP, so they should just get evaluated for reading and if the tests say he is behind, he would get remediation, no RTI needed)
     
  12. Rosy0114

    Rosy0114 Rookie

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    Add "push in" minutes to the IEP. You, or another special ed provider, or even a para (but modifications and adaptations will be provided by a sp. ed. teacher working with the gen ed teacher) would go into the classroom during reading time and support, co-teach, help the student work inside the classroom. This would increase IEP minutes, hopefully satisfying mom, and helping the student in the process. He also won't be pulled out of necessary general education time.
     
  13. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Sep 14, 2011

    Bros and Rosy- in my district, RtI is required to add a new disability even if the student is already on an IEP. So we can't just test this kid for reading (he's low, but not super low, so I don't even know that he'd qualify using discrepancy anyway) just because he's already on a speech IEP. We're not allowed to use discrepancy for anything. Even if the student was already on an academic IEP (say math or something) and I decided I thought he had a reading disability too, I'd have to put him through the RtI process for reading. Rosy, we don't do push-in at this school, but like I said we can't add reading yet anyway.

    I did e-mail mom and ask if she wanted to come in and discuss the RtI process and she seems pretty receptive so far, so I'm hoping it works out.
     
  14. Rosy0114

    Rosy0114 Rookie

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    OK - you don't do push in currently... but have you ever asked about it? has anyone ever tried it? sometimes it's good to ask questions... even if you get a "no." it might even spark some ideas in your director's/coordinator's thoughts. just a suggestion. i just struggle to accept people not doing something or even asking about it because it hasn't been done before.
     
  15. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Oh, I've definitely done it before. I'm originally from OH and at least in my area every school was pretty much heavily push-in or even push-in only. Personally, I hate it and don't think it's a good intervention strategy. If I had a para, I think that might be a good use of their time, but unfortunately I don't have any paras. I've done some push-in at this school before as well, because the special ed teacher before me put push-in hours on all the IEPs, and of course when I got here I had to follow existing IEP service hours. Luckily for me, my principal agrees with me 100%- so last year when all the kids IEPs came up I took all the push-in hours off.
     
  16. bros

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    If the student is found to not be grade level in lets say reading, reading remediation can be added to the IEP once the student has it for any reason. Full RTI is not necessary under IDEA. It's like how districts can't say "Johnny has a IEP for orthopedic disabilities, he can't get reading remediation!"
     
  17. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Just because it's not required under RtI doesn't mean my district can't require it. The student will still get reading remediation...it just won't officially be on his IEP. We can give anybody we want reading remediation...
     
  18. bros

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    Sep 15, 2011

    At least there is that.
     
  19. crosscountryski

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    If the student is found to not be grade level in lets say reading, reading remediation can be added to the IEP once the student has it for any reason. Full RTI is not necessary under IDEA. It's like how districts can't say "Johnny has a IEP for orthopedic disabilities, he can't get reading remediation!"

    Not true. If a student is on an IEP for Speech, they can only get speech. They can't get reading services. They would need to go through a re-eval to see if they are qualified for reading services. I know of several districts that were fined because students were on IEPs for speech services but also received reading services. Against the law in my state.
     
  20. bros

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  21. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Sep 17, 2011

  22. crosscountryski

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    Sep 18, 2011

    Hi

    According to Wrightlaw: Related services means transportation and such developmental, corrective, and other supportive services as are required to assist a child with a disability to benefit from special education, and includes speech- language pathology and audiology services, interpreting services, psychological services, physical and occupational therapy, recreation, including therapeutic recreation, early identification and assessment of disabilities in children, counseling services, including rehabilitation counseling, orientation and mobility services, and medical services for diagnostic or evaluation purposes. Related services also includes school health services and school nurse services, social work services in schools, and parent counseling and training.

    It says nothing about reading remediation. It is not a related service. Speech IEPs should only get speech services. If they are under another category such as LD, they can get reading and speech services. Last year, I had a student who was identified as a Speech only IEP. He was getting reading services. Guess what? When I called the state and school psy to get clairfication on this? I was told that I needed to request re-eval for further testing in the area of reading to determine if he was eligible for reading service. That IEP was legally incorrect. I was told to clean it up.

    Bros, just curious how long you have been a sped teacher?
     
  23. SCTeachInTX

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    If it were me, I would email the parent and request the conference to go over the current IEP and the RTi process. Tell the parent that you cannot move forward in creating a new IEP without this meeting per the law and district policy. Explain that you have received the IEP paperwork from the Charter school and her son will be receiving the same services that he had at his former charter school. At the end of you note explain that the team will explain the RTi process and how that will benefit her child at this time. I don't think I would inform her in an email that her son would not be receiving reading services. I would just state the facts and say that you will discuss the IEP and the RTi process during the parent meeting.

    I would also make a personal call to the charter school and MAKE SURE from the special ed. department that there is no other paperwork (IEP) that you should be waiting for. Explain to them that the parent insists there was a SpEd IEP in reading. They might give you some insights as to this particular parent and the situation.
     
  24. a2z

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    Since phonemic awareness is a pre-cursor to reading and is a necessary reading readiness skill for learning how to decode, I would understand why the parent, not a teacher, might believe this IEP is for reading as well as speech. You weren't privy to the conversations in the IEP meeting and as we all know, what is said and what is written can be two different things.

    I wouldn't take the stance that the mother is a liar as of yet since you said that you can't decipher the poorly written IEP and it does contain a reading readiness goal. I doubt this woman is trying to pull one over on you. I'm thinking, with a reading goal (phonemic awareness) the discussions revolved around reading skills in that IEP meeting.

    As far as a speech only IEP, there is no such thing. Once quailified under IDEA in a category which SLI is one, a student can receive instruction in any area which the disability has impact if there is need. There doesn't even have to be a large discrepancy in that area to warrant specialized instruction if the disability. So, in this case, phonemic awareness impacts the student's ability to decode which impacts the student's ability to read. Being in 1st grade, the bar isn't really high on what is average for a reader.
     
  25. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    In my state, there certainly is such a thing as a speech only IEP. Like crosscountryski said, reading is not considered a related service. I had a similar situation that crosscountryski described last year. I had several students who were on speech IEPs yet had reading goals and reading services with me. I thought it was illegal, and frankly didn't trust my ESS department to know the difference, so I contacted the state department of education myself. I was also told it was illegal and that we needed to qualify the student for a reading disability if we wanted to add reading goals and service time with me on the IEP- I was told to take my service hours and goals off of those IEPs right away.

    Now normally, with the way our district does RtI, it wouldn't matter. We can start the student with 20-40 minutes a week of pull out with me as a tier 2 intervention no problem- IEP or not. The problem is, this parent went out and bought this reading program (that I told her we would use because I thought the student was on a reading IEP), has been working with him on this specific program already, is thrilled with the program and how he responds to it, and has asked me several times when I can start the program and wants me to update her weekly on what stage of the program we're in. However, that program isn't a tier 2 intervention, and not something i can implement with fidelity only seeing the student for 2 20 minute blocks a week. To correctly go through the RtI process according to my district, we have to have the student in an tier 2 intervention for 6 weeks first before deciding as a team at the meeting that we want to put the student in tier 3 interventions. So I'm going to have to tell her that at best, we can start this program she's been dying for me to start with the kid in November- and that's if the student doesn't show marked progress in tier 2.
     
  26. bros

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    Yes, but sometimes schools will list only one area of classification when the student has multiple issues. If the district tests for a reading disability and finds one, then reading remediation can be immediately added to a preexisting IEP.
     
  27. waterfall

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    Not if that district has banned the use of the discrepancy model...which mine has. We have to do RtI first.
     
  28. SCTeachInTX

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    WOW. This is certainly different from the two states I have worked in. A special ed. teacher would never work with a student on the RTi process without an IEP in place in that particular content area. It just would not be done ever. It is so strange how things can vary from state to state. Our sped teachers would be fearful of a lawsuit from an irate parent who claims that their child is in sped and has not been diagnosed with a disablity of any sort and no documented IEP. Now, on top of that, our SPED teachers are dealing with a multitude of kids with learning and emotional disabilities. Asking them to fit in students without a sped IEP, would be unheard of on any level. I personally think that if you are willing to do this and this is a norm in your school district that it would be a big help to the regular ed. teacher and would give most parents piece of mind.
     
  29. waterfall

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    Yeah, this is different from my home state as well. I have a really small caseload- only 10 students that are actually on IEPs. I have about 20 students that I see with RtI included. Being that my caseload is so small, I honestly wouldn't have enough to teach if I only taught those 10 kids! I also prefer to see small groups of kids rather than 1:1 most of the time, because I think it's better for the kids to be able to pair together, share ideas, hear explanations from another student, etc. Since I have such a wide span of grades, if I didn't include the RtI kids I simply wouldn't have enough at each reading/math level to make a small group!

    Usually, for tier 2 in reading the student would see a reading specialist rather than me, and then for tier 3 they would start coming to me. I had already placed this student in my schedule though (again, assuming he was already on a reading IEP), and it would actually be more work to take him out and jumble up everybody else, so I don't mind seeing him for tier 2 in this case. In math, we don't really have anyone else doing interventions so I have to do tier 2 as well. Parents must sign a consent form that explains the RtI process and the fact that their child will be working in a resource room with a sped teacher even though their child is not in special education before the child can start working with me. We also invite them to RtI meetings, although few actually attend...but the option is there. In my home state, tier 3 is not really part of the RtI process really- they just call special ed (as in officially on an IEP special ed) tier 3. Here, it is part of the process- students must go through a certain amount of tier 3 interventions and still make slow/little progress before we can decide to officially test them and place them on an IEP.
     
  30. SCTeachInTX

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    In both my states the regular ed. teacher did all of tiers 1, 2,and 3. We do have reading recovery and math/reading intervention teachers. But they don't actually help with much documentation. All that documentation falls on the regular ed. teacher and when tier 3 shows little success ONLY THEN the team will recommend further testing for a disability. In my previous state dyslexia was considered a disability. In the state I am in now the regular education teacher offers all interventions for kids with dyslexia (unless the child is severely dyslexic and is unable to maintain classroom success). It is just crazy. Good luck! Sounds like this parent is going to give you a run for your money. I would definitely call the previous school and make sure that the child did not have paperwork that just did not make it to you. It has happened before...
     
  31. waterfall

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    That's interesting SC...I don't really understand how having a regular ed teacher do tier 3 would work. Are you full inclusion by any chance? I always wondered how RtI worked in full inclusion schools, since no kids are getting intensive interventions either way other than having another teacher around to help, and it's not like that other teacher is going to only help the kids who are on IEPs/in RtI while he or she is in the classroom.

    I'm meeting with the parent tomorrow morning. I asked the SLP to be there, as well as the school psych and our AP who is our admin who deals with anything special ed related. I asked mom if she was okay with them being there, and explained that with them in attendence we could count tomorrow as our first official RtI meeting and get the ball rolling with interventions right away. She's inviting the other family also (since they're divorced), and I've heard some pretty crazy stories about them, so I'm trying to keep an open mind but I'm worried! The charter is known to be "run by the rich parents" and bowing to whatever they want, so I think it's going to be hard for these parents to find out we don't/can't do that at a public school. Hoping things go well though!
     
  32. SCTeachInTX

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    Quite honestly it is tough Waterfall. I was the inclusion gen. ed teacher when I was teaching children full time. (I am a Literacy Coach for teachers now most of the day. But I still spend time in classrooms and working with children about 80% of my time. )

    As a gen ed. teacher the tier three interventions are one on one and I would have to carve out time in my day to meet with those children. We focus on just one thing... like fluency or number concepts. We give the interventions 6 weeks to work. That is pulling the child a minimum of 3 days per week to meet one on one and intervene with a new/intensive teaching strategy. At the end of the 6 weeks the team will come together and look at everything we did beginning from Tier 1 -3. If there is enough documentation, the team will send the file to the school psychologist who will review our documentation and decide if the child needs any special testing. The first tests will only be screeners. The screeners are usually done on below grade level material which is maddening because many students will make passing scores on below grade level material. But since the actual work that we ask students to do and the actual tests that we measure students for special ed. are so vastly different, kids often DNQ. It is a cycle that we have tried to figure out for years. Finally we just realized that is the way things are...
     
  33. waterfall

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    Yeah, that's totally different from my district. I find that we have kids in RtI too long, and the ones that actually make it to testing are really, really low, so they always qualify for sure. I still think we're under identifying though- since any progress at all is met with "but they're making progress!" when we try to move the student to special ed referral. IMO, no one should be making absolutely NO progress, even a kid in special ed...but I digress.

    In regards to the OP, we had the meeting this morning and it actually went really well. We didn't have to back down on our process and the parents seemed pleased about everything. What a relief!
     
  34. bros

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    A kid on an IEP should make progress every year imo

    What are goals for if not for progression?
     
  35. a2z

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    I agree, bros.

    But there is progress then there is PROGRESS.

    For example (extreme, I know, but it is real). A sped director told a parent that complained the high IQ child was not making progress in reading but it was actually regression because in 5 years the child only grew 2 years in ability so the gap widened. The teacher's response was since the child gained 2 years that was progress because the child knew more 5 years later than the child did when the child was give the IEP. By the literal definition of progress that is true. The child gained skill. By the definition of progress for a high IQ kid with SLD, the progress is supposed to be compared to where the child's peers are. So a child that started 2 years behind when put on the IEP but is now 5 years behind is actually regression. Since the child has an average to above average IQ his peers are those students in that same intelligence range.

    It seems that is what waterfall's school is pushing. Any newly learned information is progress even if the rest of the peers are learning 10 times as much.

    Now there are kids with severe disabilitites where regression will happen. A child with an IQ of 40 will never keep up with students his/her age without intellectual disabilities, but progress is still expected.
     
  36. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Sep 20, 2011

    When I was young, I made very little progress grade-level wise, but I would make a good amount of progress IEP Goal wise.

    I couldn't do any mathematical operations in my head (or use a calculator; too young/motor skills were too unrefined) until October 1996, when I had a 1 hr 45 minute seizure.
     

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