Should your evaluation be based on your students' test scores?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Tyler B., Apr 11, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Apr 13, 2014

    So how much more money would you need to start caring more about your students or working harder to improve their learning?
     
  2. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    436

    Apr 13, 2014

    Other studys supporting merit pay come from University of Arkansas by a researcher whose funding comes completely from the Walton Foundation - one of the biggest proponents of merit pay, vouchers and state-supported private charters.

    Sometimes knowing the bias of the source is enough to discredit an anti-public education "study".

    However in the case of the study you cited, it's been widely discredited from other researchers in the same field of study.
     
  3. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 13, 2014

    I see no wide discrediting in the link. I do, however, see a link to one review by someone who, if we're going to discuss associations as bias, is most certainly biased:

    " The second cornerstone, what a worker earns, is not based on the value of an individual’s contribution to production, which the author contends is a flawed concept; wages are determined by the power workers possess or do not possess at the bargaining table, and Adler points to CEOs’ obscene compensation, which he concludes is awarded because they work for shareholders who are too numerous and lack control."

    Yeah, he seems like a reliable source to be taken over well known and respected economists in the original study. :lol:
     
  4. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    436

    Apr 13, 2014

    Your response makes no sense.

    But this is consistent with VAM. One of my favorite examples is the Florida teacher, Kim Cook, who was her school's Teacher of the Year the same year she recieved an unsatisfactory evaluation. She's a first grade teacher in a K - 3 school whose evaluations depend on a group of students in a nearby 4 - 5 school. After teaching at her school for 3 years, she'd never even met the students whose scores determined her evaluation. Then suddenly, the students at the 4 -5 school did well on their test so she got an extra $400. She'd never had any of those kids in her class.

    Yeah. Tell me VAM works.
     
  5. teacherbatman

    teacherbatman Companion

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2014
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 14, 2014

    I'd also like to know.

    Why would you ever look to an economist on the issue of merit pay? To an economist, the ONLY THING that motivates people, and makes the world go 'round, is money. Of course... anyone with a shred of humanity knows this is completely bogus.

    OBVIOUSLY, an economist will say "MORE MONEY = MORE MOTIVATION." In fact, if they don't, their science kinda falls apart. Are we talking about bias?

    This issue falls under the domain of the psychology/humanities, NOT economics...

    Also interesting, when education itself is guided by economics, as opposed to psychology/humanities, it also falls apart...
     
  6. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Apr 14, 2014

    On the topic of merit pay, I think people should read the book DRIVE. Completely changed my view of the topic, as so many of the examples made sense to me and applied to my experiences....very very insightful book.
     
  7. Loveslabs

    Loveslabs Companion

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2013
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0

    Apr 14, 2014

    I think I read that book. Can you give me an example of one of the examples, so I can see if I can pull that book out of the depths of my brain? Sorry, either I read too many books or my memory is going!!
     
  8. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Apr 14, 2014

    One point was that you have to take pay off the table. Your employees have to make a wage that they are "happy" with, at that point pay is not really an incentive anymore.

    So for example, i am happy with my pay scale, I have a livable wage and have essentially no complaints about my wages. Merit pay or raises will no longer motivate me to work harder or better.

    Another example that really struck me was incentives used for productivity. That offering rewards for "things" that require "thinking or creativity" may actually stifle the persons thinking and reduce their ability to solve problems.
     
  9. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Apr 14, 2014

    That all makes sense to me. I'm not claiming to be all teachers, but I don't feel like financial incentives would make me do more than I'm already doing. I'll never turn down a pay raise, but I'm already putting in what I'd consider to be maximum effort.
     
  10. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,628
    Likes Received:
    1,513

    Apr 14, 2014

    Isn't that where negotiating comes in...

    A wage that you may be happy with I may think is way too low.

    Some take the job because they want to teach, but they aren't happy with the pay. Then there is a tug about how hard they should work because in that case pay is still on the table in their mind even though they have no control over it in the current situation for many teachers.

    Since there are often many applicants for the open teaching jobs, couldn't we say pay is really off the table at this point. If it is, why is there a clamoring for more pay by many?
     
  11. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Apr 14, 2014

    I would say when pay is taken off the table is a very personal issue, and IS still on the table for many. DRIVE would say that is the first issue that needs to be dealt with before you can deal with other ways to motivate people.

    Imo, it is very clear that in a job like teaching, merit pay will have the opposite effect, it will actually reduce the creative thinking and effectiveness of the teachers...not improve it. This is why before reading the book I would be in favor of merit pay, and now I am opposed to it. I am not opposed to teachers making more money, but using incentives such as pay, may actually have the opposite effect.

    I honestly think a teachers wage should be a livable wage(mine is, hence I am very happy). Teachers also need to be honest with what is a public pay scale. If you really want a huge house, sports car, trips to Europe....be honest with yourself, teaching is not likely to provide this.

    For me, they could offer me a 100% pay raise for my awesome work, it would get nothing more out of me, I love my job and my pay is great.
     
  12. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,628
    Likes Received:
    1,513

    Apr 14, 2014

    What does DRIVE say people do when pay is still on the table? Did it address this issue? Should we have another thread for DRIVE discussion?

    I see how merit pay can cause work issues when someone is already working to his potential. It can't cause someone to work harder. But if pay is on the table for many and it impacts work habits negatively, what does merit pay do?
     
  13. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Apr 14, 2014

    It would make me resent a colleague that was only pretending to care about their students in hopes of making more money, and it would make me hope that my child never ended up in their class.
     
  14. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Apr 14, 2014

    DRIVE says that you absolutely 100% have to deal with pay first.If I remember right, it says you HAVE to remove it from the table.

    My interpretation is that merit pay will have a negative effect on "working hard or effectively". I would say you want to deal with a straight salary.

    Merit pay would work great according to the book(my interpretation) if if was a very "simple" mundane activity, can't think of the words, but would not be effective with work that requires creative problem solving.
     
  15. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    16

    Apr 14, 2014

    Just wondering; if your pay was decreased, would you still work as hard as you are working now? Or would a loss in wages change your work effort/ethic?

    I somewhat agree with you and others about pay increases. A pay increase would not get me to put more effort into my teaching, but it would make me more willing to do the extras - such as helping to organize school events and leading clubs - anything done before or after contracted work hours. AKA overtime. I do some of these things are free because I have to, not because I want to.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. hani,
  2. Obadiah,
  3. Lisabobisa,
  4. YoungTeacherGuy
Total: 620 (members: 6, guests: 586, robots: 28)
test