Should marjiuna be legalized and taxed?

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by kinderkids, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    I find it somewhat hilarious that some of the most rabid guns-with-no-restrictions people are also the most rabid about things like this.

    Personally, I find it unconscionable that people with chronic illnesses like MS are denied a drug that can help them. MJ is certainly far less harmful than many of the pain medications that don't even help as much.

    I lived in the Netherlands for a while. The attitude of most of the Dutch people I knew and lived with (college students!) was "eh, been there, done that." maybe once in a while, someone would would have a joint, but, mostly the coffee shops in A'dam, and Enschede were just filled with tourists (Americans and Germans mostly). I actually never have tried pot. Maybe I would have had the opportunity presented, but it was just not that big a deal to anybody. Probably because they were too busy drinking beer.
     
  2. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    I know around here people are wanting there to be "bars" that are specifically for pot rather than alcohol. We already have "speciality shops," but at the moment only those with medical marijuana cards can use them. I would assume that these same shops would continue in the future, but theoretically anyone could use them. I don't think it would be sold in grocery stores or any "regular" stores...but as far as I know, nothing has been decided yet. The issue is of course that it's still a federal crime, even if the state has decided it's legal. That's why many people don't think that actually selling it in legal shops will happen and saw the amendment as more of a stepping stone to get the federal government to get there. The idea is that if enough states can pass amendments like ours the federal government will "have to" take some kind of action about the laws on the federal level. Personally, I'm extremely interested to see how it pans out. I was shocked that it passed by such a wide margin here. We are a "swing state" and have some extremely conservative/religiously focused areas so it certainly wasn't a given. I was not expecting it to even pass, much less pass by such a margin.
     
  3. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    I know in Michigan (where it is legal for medical use- and super easy to get a perscription, too), you can buy it from a 'dispensery.' You can buy food laced with it, as well as the actual stuff to smoke.
    I guess it will be like a liquor store or something. (Here is NC, the state controls liquor sales- you have to go to a specific store to buy liquor.)
     
  4. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    Numerous studies have shown that isn't true.

    I don't have a problem with it. Some of the smartest people I know are total potheads, but they know when to turn off the "pothead mentality" and get to work.
     
  5. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    Well I just said I have "heard". If you have a study that shows otherwise...please post. I would love to read about this. However, I am sure I could also cite studies that contradict your studies I suppose, but that isn't going to do any good or get anywhere either. Just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

    Those who have replied to this have genuine held beliefs why they are for or against. I appreciate all sides of the argument. Going back to a previous post, I don't think calling someone ignorant about their point of view is necessary or useful in this discussion at all. As I said, there are two sides (at least) to any real debate. Calling someone ignorant for voicing their side ..well...is ignorant. :rolleyes: So, I would like to see all the said statistics mentioned by this poster as to defend his point of view, rather than just spewing out negative terms to the opposition. I am willing to listen and learn. Please show me what you are referring to. I am not ignorant, perhaps uniformed.:confused: So inform me, please.

    I really would appreciate seeing SCIENTIFIC data that supports the pro side of this debate because from what I have gleaned, I haven't see anything positive from it, outside of medicinal uses. Until I see actual scientific data from both sides,I will hold to my point of view. However, I am not so closed minded as to not read said data and if I see profound evidence to the contrary of my belief, I could perhaps change my mind. See..I'm not so IGNORANT after all, just willing to learn. So educate me. :2cents:
     
  6. brigidy

    brigidy Comrade

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    Dec 21, 2012

    Things that make me go hmmmmmmmm...

    Ban tobacco cigarettes because it is harmful to the respiratory system and contains carcinogens..

    Legalize marijuana cigarettes which is harmful to the respiratory system, contains carcinogens and affects thinking and reasoning skills.
     
  7. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    I know MANY smart people too! In fact as I recall some of the smartest (i.e."intelligent") people I know, I can't think of a one who is a "total pothead".
     
  8. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I think the history behind why and how marijuana became illegal in this country is interesting. Look it up if you haven't already done so.

    I am in favor of lifting the restrictions on recreational marijuana use. I think that it could be regulated fairly easily in the same way that alcohol is regulated, and that includes taxes. I would like to see law enforcement and the court system focus on more serious issues.

    I will add that I've never smoked pot. Or cigarettes.
     
  9. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Of course. It would save billions in our penal and court systems.
    Stupidest law ever. I just realized this was an old one that I had actually replied to earlier. Probably makes me look like a pot head.
    Not. But way back in the early seventies..................
    The deal is there are folks that have a proclivity toward addiction. Food, booze shopping etc. As addictions go mj is not the worst. Booze is much worse.
     
  10. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously the control group is going to contain intelligent people. There are also people who aren't potheads who are total imbeciles.

    So yeah, not sure of your point...
     
  11. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    :lol:
    Not sure of your point, either. That WAS the point of my post! :rolleyes: So why is my NOT knowing potheads being the most intelligent people I know, any less relevant than your post in that the potheads were the smartest people you know ?:confused:

    So yeah, not sure of your point, either...

    Edited to add: Yeah, there also people who are potheads who are "total imbeciles", too. Soooooooo????????
     
  12. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    No... no, no...

    My point is that pot doesn't adversely affect intelligence.
     
  13. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    Thank you for explaining your post, Mike. I wasn't sure what it meant, as it left a tone that I didn't like. I may be slow to understand other views, but I'm not blind. When you say things comparing a control group as to what I think...well, that is just unfair. I wanted to turn it around to you. It goes both ways, Mike. You have to understand that.

    I really want to know the reason in favor for this. I think of myself as a Conservative Libertarian on social situations like this: what goes on in your home, stays in your home. See, I am open minded, but I do need clarification and something more than a post that says "look it up". Please cite scientific references when you refer to them so I can make an educated decision on this. I just wish those who quote such references would cite them. If I look it up, I will just end up with something that won't explain what they cite.

    I know I don't agree with probably 80% (hahaha,that is being liberal, just a guess..not a poll :p) of people on here about my views, but I DO pride myself in being open minded and willing to listen to opposed views and consider them fairly. I am not so proud as to NOT to consider an opposing point of view. In fact, I welcome them.
     
  14. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Have they banned the sale of cigarettes (like pot) in some states? I know there are restrictions as to where you can smoke, but I'm not aware that cigarettes have been banned.
     
  15. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I guess I just don't understand how someone who feels comfortable with alcohol being legal at the same time feels pot shouldn't be.

    Could someone explain?
     
  16. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Dec 22, 2012

    Ignorant, uninformed... it's the same thing.
    First off, you say that "outside of medicinal uses", you haven't seen anything positive from marijuana. Well... if it JUST had those medicianl uses, wouldn't that be enough? Do you think Big Pharm wants to see its pills for nausea, depression, treatment for chemo, glaucoma, cancer... potentially replaced by one plant? Ask yourself what campaigns are waged against weed and on us (the average citizen) every day, by interests that wouldn't want to see it legalized. Do you think alcohol companies want to see a plant that works in direct competition with itself, to be legal? As an enlightened consumer and individual, you have to realize this and take it in consideration.

    Google: hemp. Learn about this amazing plant and its uses in industry. Food, textiles, it's fibrous nature (e.g. rope). Read about its LONG history of use in early America and the world, pre-20th century. And keeping in mind the business interests as mentioned above, what interests played a major role in its criminalization in the 20th century. The fact that this plant without its psychoactive qualities isn't legal is ridiculous.

    Now my third point, which may be the most profound, is in terms of our freedom over our own existence as human beings. That is, our FREEDOM over our own bodies. Freedom over your mind/spirit. We are endowed with these amazing brains, which sometimes seem like worlds unto themselves when you really think about it. When you go to sleep every night--basically, you are having a psychedelic trip. Often times, our dreams leave us amazed. It makes you wonder what "doors" and worlds that are available to us in our subconscious. And who should determine our access to those doors? If we can have access to this "universe" inside our own brains, what business is that of a government? Ancient people have used drugs like this in ceremonial rituals (e.g. peyote). There are those that think that psychoactive drugs played a role in us going from monkey to man.

    And in the end, marijuana has a pleasure component, just as a glass of wine or a six-pack. It feels good, people enjoy it... what the h-ll business is that of the government, especially considering all the good things already mentioned.
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Hemp and marijuana aren't really the same, though, are they?
     
  18. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Hemp is not psychoactive, if that's what you are saying. But they derive from the same plant. And in the history (that I previously mentioned), marijuana use was cited as the reason to eventually ban hemp in industry.
     
  19. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    The fact that this plant without its psychoactive qualities isn't legal is ridiculous.
    ahhh, but we aren't discussing the plant, but the product it produces. Go Hemp!! I already know about the products it produces. In the same frame of mind, I love poppy seeds..but that doesn't mean I advocate for the production of opium.
     
  20. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    And by the way, in my world, ignorant and uniformed is NOT the same thing. But I won't argue semantics with you. That discussion is DOA (at least now it is for me).
     
  21. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Yes but poppy seeds aren't illegal... hemp is. (And let's not get started on OPIUM and the US gov't! :p)
     
  22. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    Well there you go,:thumb: ty for that point ...I don't think hemp should be illegal. As I mentioned before, I am willing to listen to ideas I haven't thought about. So...tell me more about hemp vs. pot. I really do love to learn about the differences . Why poppy seeds legal/vs hemp not legal. I'm not trying to be trite, but rather I DO want to learn more. I haven't heard a discussion about this, and frankly, I think it's about time.
     
  23. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    For the record, kinderkids, I'm pretty sure Mike was using the phrase "control group" in the sense in which it's used in the scientific method: in an experiment involving, say, coffee grounds as fertilizer on radish plants, the control group is the group of radish plants that get the same potting soil, water, light, air, temperature etc. as the experimental group, but only the experimental group gets the coffee grounds added to the mix.
     
  24. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    I actually may have misspoke, in saying poppy seed (production) is legal here. I don't know if it is or not.

    But anyway, I think I illustrated the points previously. I think the key factors to remember are the economic forces at work. First, the forces that worked to demonize the hemp industry (e.g. google: William Randolph Hearst marijuana). And then, the forces that would work against it today (pharmaceutical, alcohol, agriculture).

    Its sad, but the bottom line in most ANYTHING these days is business. It is not easy for us (as thoughtful citizens) to know the truth about anything because we are subject to all forms of propaganda, that is probably quite scientific in nature. And so, at the risk of sounding very tin-hat wearer-like... when you analyze any topic like this, you have to realize that your current perspective could be skewed to the way "they" want you to think.
     
  25. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    As for poppy seeds, they do indeed come from Papaver somniferum, the opium poppy. Domestic production is illegal, so the bulk of the US culinary poppyseed supply comes from Turkey or the Netherlands, according to Slate.com - but gardeners who grow the plants for their flowers (which are indeed showy) don't tend to face prosecution. Poppyseeds, both whole and ground, have been an important food product and spice for millennia. Every recipe I've ever seen for poppyseed cake has one soak the seeds, often in yogurt, before baking: this is because the tiny seeds are very dried and very hard - and evidently this is an important part of the story: opium is made from the sticky white latex that oozes out of a cut or damaged opium-poppy seed pod only when the pod is still green. Once the pod and the seeds dry out, the opium content drops drastically (though consuming two to four poppyseed bagels can apparently cause one to fail a drug test). The unripe pod is roughly spherical and ranges between ping-pong ball size and tennis ball size.

    (For the record, the flower that most of us Californians recognize as the California poppy, the state flower, is Eschscholzia californica - a Papaver relative, but by no means Papaver somniferum. Cutting the seed pods for latex would be challenging: the pods are long and slender, like a straightened-out parenthesis, and generally not more than 1/16 inch to 1/8 inch in diameter.)
     
  26. brigidy

    brigidy Comrade

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    No, they haven't banned the selling of cigarettes, just the smoking of cigarettes in most places. Which I hope continues with the marijuana cigarettes. I would much rather smell tobacco smoke than the horrible stench of marijuana. I was just thinking of the irony of all this. And no, I don't smoke anything. The negative outweigh any positives for me.
     
  27. KateL

    KateL Habitué

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  28. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    I Have a medical Marijuana card for Arizona but I have never used it. I suffer from a lot of pain so I got it so if other therapies stop working I would be ready. I am holding off, because I do not even drink, I lived through the 60s "I never inhaled."

    My personal feelings are that Alcohol should be taxed and recreational Marijuana should be also be taxed.

     
  29. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Is alcohol not taxed now?!
     
  30. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    in some locals it is under or not taxed
     
  31. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Wow...I didn't know that!
     
  32. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    In Hungarian cuisine we use a lot of poppy seed, especially in pastries. So much that my mom brought me her manual poppy seed grinder, which I have actually never used. We ate a lot of poppy seed on various food, but I never felt any effects :)
    I have heard of the trick to put kids to sleep, especially if they're crying, with boiling poppy seed in milk and have them drink it.

    There is a Jewish restaurant in town with a Jewish bakery and they have a lot of things with poppy seed in it. (one of the owners is half Hungarian) I never knew those things could cause to fail a drug test.
     
  33. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    My post came about the way a lot of my posts here do: someone mentions something that gets me wondering, I go look it up, I learn a couple of things that surprise me ("Hey! Neat fact!"), and then I just gotta share. I truly hadn't realized that poppy seeds are, um, poppy seeds... but human ingenuity when it comes to finding a way to make unlikely things edible cannot be overestimated.

    As to the poppy seeds and the drug test, see also the blog post "Chemistry of morphine, heroin, and lemon poppy seed cake" - and the comments - at I Can Has Science?, http://icanhasscience.com/fun-stuff/chemistry-of-morphine-heroin-and-lemon-poppy-seed-cake/.
     
  34. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    You want to learn another neat fact? Google: america opium afghanistan, and then reflect on why we are really there.
     
  35. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    They just banned smoking (tobacco) indoors here in CR. I LOVE it!!!

    Pot is so common on the Caribbean side of the country that you see people just rolling up joints on the street. I think it's illegal to have more than a certain amount of pot, but nothing a little bribe couldn't handle;)
     
  36. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Just curious...has anyone ever seen pictures of smoker's lungs? Why would anyone choose to destroy their body like that?

    Obviously, I don't agree with the majority here. I get my good feelings from reading an exciting book, watching a heartwarming movie, or just visiting with friends and family.
     
  37. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    All of this poppy talk reminded me of this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG2keYgBiZc :yawn::lol:
     
  38. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Opium is quite likely part of the story, but only part. Bear in mind also that opium production is not all necessarily intended to result in illicit drugs such as heroin: morphine and codeine assuredly do have medical uses.
     

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