Shooting in Cleveland School

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Master Pre-K, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Oct 10, 2007

    Hello Friends,

    I have decided to stop whining about my own life, and pay attention to the current events of our day.

    Did you all hear about the school shooting in Cleveland!

    When will this madness stop???

    Just listening to the newscasters was irritating. "This was a good school, and a special program for these kids. The shooter (I hate when they say that!) was only 14. (Same old story) He was upset for being picked on."

    So what is the "typical" school and neighborhood for a school shooting? :confused:

    And yes, he did commit suicide.

    I know I will start a marathon here...

    but...

    WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET RID OF ALL THESE GUNS!

    I see no reason to continue to enforcement of the amendment that gives us the right to bear arms!

    we don't live in the woods.

    If you want to bear arms and hunt bears, maybe you should live in the woods.

    and take all the gun shops with you.

    I think the only people who should have guns are policemen!

    like drugs! They should all be kept behind the counter in Walgreens!

    ok, you can make them, and some grow in your back yard.

    but guns are sold, and people have them in their houses.

    WHY?

    Guess we are just waiting for another child to die - call Code Blue, lockdown day at our neighborhood school.
     
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  3. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Oct 10, 2007

    I grew up around guns, and I don't have a problem with them. It's not something I'm extremely passionate about, mind you, but I just feel that if you take away the guns the problem still exists - and there are plenty other methods for killing people.

    The event today is obviously very sad. :(
     
  4. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Oct 10, 2007

    Kids do what they see. And they grab what they can get.

    Unless they live in a house with a family of terrorists, they will not mix bleach and amonia to make a deadly gas, nor will they bring a box cutter to school and slice up a few people.

    these things require time, and thought.

    guns are easy..just pull the trigger.

    This thread is about shooting in the schools. I think we all know there is more that one way to kill a person.

    I have a problem with guns. I don't think they should be in anybody's house or anyone's store.

    they kill kids and kids kill with them.
     
  5. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Oct 10, 2007

    QUOTE: "This thread is about shooting in the schools. I think we all know there is more that one way to kill a person."

    Excuse me for stating my opinion about the violence in our society.
     
  6. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    yes, the event is very sad.
     
  7. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Oct 11, 2007

    Statistically, it's more dangerous to own a swimming pool than a gun. And I'm pretty sure you can find lots of examples of box cutters being used.

    The right to bear arms was NOT based on wild animals. There are legal arguments you can make, but that's not one of them.

    The first is that the amendment actually applies to states' powers (it does say "in order to form a well-regulated militia", I believe). This is a bit weak since all the other BOR amendments are clearly individual rights.

    You could also call for an amendment cancelling the second amendment, but you're not likely to get very far.

    Just saying, "Don't enforce the second amendment" is a little ridiculous, and would be a horrible precedent to set. Moreover, every lawyer in the country has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution. Simply not enforcing it won't fly. It's also not clear what you're saying: you mean, just have the police lock otherwise law-abiding citizens up purely because they have guns, and when they point to the second amendment as a defense ignore them?

    MPK -- I agree with your dislike of guns. I know you're preschool, so you're not likely to teach the Constitution. If you do, however, or if anyone reading does, be careful what you teach. I don't really object to teachers sharing their opinions; to a certain extent they have to share opinions. When those opinions are completely uninformed, however, they should refrain.

    This event is terrible. Did the newscaster really imply it was atypical? It seems like most of the well-known school shootings -- Columbine, VT -- have been schools that are at least reasonably good by kids in their mid-teens who've been picked on.
     
  8. brigidy

    brigidy Comrade

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    Oct 11, 2007

    I believe that violence in our society is a much deeper problem than the fact that people own guns. We should be worrying about WHY would a child want to grab the first thing they can find to do harm to another person.
     
  9. kburen

    kburen Cohort

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    Oct 11, 2007

    My BF & his father have the best stand on guns that I have ever heard. You can SAY "take all the guns away from everyone except police man" but the "bad guys" who are using guns to harm and kill people aren't going to willingly turn them over. So you say "we know who has registered guns, go forcefully take them" Fine...but then what about the "bad guys" with UNregistered guns who DON'T turn them over? I HATE guns myself...They scare me terribly. But...I also agree with them. If the "bad guys" are going to have guns no matter what....Shouldn't I be allowed to have one in my house to protect me if they come in? How would you feel if you were forced to give up a gun that you had for protection, and someone broke into your house and harmed you and your family with a gun and you had no way to protect yourself? There will never be a way to get rid of every gun.......With that being the case, we should all have the right to protect ourselves if we want that.
     
  10. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Oct 11, 2007

    Heh, heh,

    Okay, kburen, let's take your BF and his dad one further. . .

    Where do you think those bad guys get those unregistered guns?

    They steal them from shops catering to regular gun owners, or from factories. Either way, reduce the market for registered guns, and the supply of illegal guns goes down.

    Your BF and his father's argument isn't all that bad, it's just not a slam dunk.
     
  11. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Oct 11, 2007

    Ok, so maybe the bigger concern is what causes this tragedy. Why are kids picked on and traumatized to the point that they feel they must kill others and take their own lives?

    And, what can we do as educators to prevent this?
     
  12. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Oct 11, 2007

    Absolutely. And that is precisely what I intended in my original response. You can take away the guns, but the pain these teenagers feel will still exist. Whether it is external reasonings [bullies, etc.], or internal issues [chemical imbalances, etc.], or of course a combination of both - whatever causes these violent rages is the problem.

    Did you hear the boy who attended the school say that the killer had told him of his plans - and that the killer would let him and a couple other people go when he did it. This boy said he just didn't think he was serious. How tragic to have known...

    As to the question of this being atypical - I noticed that almost every person I've seen on film about this event was African American. I have not seen a photograph of the killer, but I am going to assume he was as well. Perhaps that is what is atypical here; most mass-murderers are white males. Obviously in the VT scenerio the killer was not white either, but I'm just thinking that perhaps this is why they have labeled this as being an atypical case.

    Back to the root of the problem. Most people have reasonable ways to cope with stress. Some don't. When you are pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and pushed...at some point you finally push back.

    I require 100% respect in my classroom. Nothing less. You look at someone's shoes the wrong way in my classroom and we'll have a heart to heart in two seconds flat. That's a start.
     
  13. heatherleigh

    heatherleigh Companion

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    Oct 11, 2007

    there are so many issues to this case that i want to address without making this long winded. first of all... although i do believe there is an issue with gun control in our country i do not believe that allowing only police officers to carry guns will solve anything. people will still be able to get guns whether they are legal or not and let us not forget that not ALL police officers are actually "good". i'm sure there are plenty of corrupt officers out there whom we would not like to be carrying guns. and as another poster said... plenty of other weapons can be found and used... and lets face it... it is not difficult to make bombs.

    how this story should concern us as educators... what we should be discussing and pondering is how could this have been prevented. how can we as educators, people that are spending a majority of our waking hrs amongst these children be in tune to a child who may be prone to act out in this way. how can we help that child? how can we prevent something like this from happening? how can we convince parents and administrators to take these problems seriously? from what i've been hearing on the news up here in the cleveland area, this child has made threats before.
    i also think we need to take a stand against bullying. find ways to let the students feel as though they can come to you even if it's anonymously to talk about problems. JustMe said they require respect in their classroom, and i agree with her that that is a start. we need to make sure we are teaching more than just the curriculum. we need to help foster these students social skills and prepare them to be productive, caring, citizens... our world is too crazy to ignore these issues.
     
  14. heatherleigh

    heatherleigh Companion

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    Oct 11, 2007

    by the way... since we are on the topic of guns and schools... has anyone heard about the teacher from oregon trying to sue for her right to carry a concealed weapon into the school where she teaches. now that i am totally appalled about. she is supposedly afraid of her ex husband... i say carry some intense mase!!! here's a link if anyone wants to read more about it.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300180,00.html
     
  15. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Oct 11, 2007

    My husband and his family are hunters. He grew up with guns all of his life. Gifts for Christmas were guns. When we first got together, he bought me my own gun and taught me how to shoot it and clean it. We have a gun case that has all of our guns inside and it stays LOCKED to where the only people that can get into it are me and him because we have the key on our key rings. Taking away guns from everyone but police is unrealistic. And if you are a responsible gun owner like my hubby and I are then there is no need to worry about having guns in the house.

    And taking away guns would not solve the murders either. There will be people out there that will devise another plan to kill someone if they really want that person dead.

    As educators we need to make sure that we tell our students that if they hear anything about a student coming to school with a gun, bomb, whatever, that they need to tell someone IMMEDIATELY and that if the person is kidding then fine no one gets hurt, but if they are prepared for it then hopefully the tradegy can be avoided.
     
  16. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    What I wonder is why are children less able to cope with bullying in the last few decades then at any other time in our history. Bullying isn't new! There have been bullies in schools as long as there have been schools. And guns have been around longer then that! So, why are children today reacting to it in this way? What has changed in the way they are raised to cause them to snap, instead of learning to deal? Why don't they have coping skills?

    I believe we have raised a generation of wimps. Rewarding behavior that SHOULD be expected, making sure everyone wins, gets an award, etc. Seems like we have had to make sure we inflate the self-esteem of every child. When do children have the chance to learn how to cope with life? Not everything is equal and fair, not everyone wins, life is full of challenges. Why do we try to create such a sterile and fake atmosphere for these children both at home, at school, and in clubs, sports, etc. Children don't know how to fail and get back on the horse. Now, instead, they shoot the horse.
     
  17. heatherleigh

    heatherleigh Companion

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    obviously coming into school and shooting is not the 'norm' amongst children but i do agree with some of what you're saying... most children deal with bullying of some sort during their lives... what is causing some to 'cope' in ways such as these.
     
  18. deedee

    deedee Connoisseur

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    While I agree that we do reward way to much in our society I dont believe that that is a cause for this kind of behavior. Bullying is not new but the rate of suicide has gone up in years because children dont have outlets for their pain. In many cases these kids have deep depression, emotional/behavioral issues that need help. We all say that Bullying isnt tolerated but it is. Teacher can only do so much to stop this kind of behavior. These kids need our help and our hearts, they need to know that they are not alone. From Columbine to Virginia Tech these students have had common threads of people seeing signs and neglecting them, saying they will grow out of it. Well they dont , they see only one way out and it usually leaves a wake of destruction. I hate it when people say they were just to wired to fit in and that why is it our fault that we were popular. Its not the amount of friends or money you have that matters its how we treat people. This is something that adults still struggle with, we can be horrible to eachother and most of us have the capability to move past this and see the bigger picture. I feel horrible to the kids that cant and just need acceptance.


    just my :2cents:
     
  19. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Oct 11, 2007

  20. SpaceAngel

    SpaceAngel Comrade

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    The shooter was white, but the school was predominantly black (85%). This WAS a good school, but so was Columbine. 95% of the kids graduated from this school, and most went on to college. Maybe not a big boast in some places, but for Cleveland Muni, it was.
     
  21. HankT

    HankT New Member

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    Oct 11, 2007

    Prevention is definitely a multi-dimensional and highly complex area of this subject.

    When this story broke yesterday, I was on another forum and someone started a thread about it, same as here, and this is what he/she said:


    Posted: Wed Oct 10th, 2007 02:41 pm

    People don't understand that this will keep happening!! Teachers need to be armed.




    The conversation on that thread has gotten somewhat extended but I thought I'd transplant it to a teachers forum to see what the opinions might be of a recurring proposal by some folks:

    Arm teachers with guns in the classroom to prevent and respond to armed attacks such as the Cleveland case.

    I don't have a view on such a proposal. I just am curious as to what others might think about it.

    Any thoughts on such a proposal?
     
  22. heatherleigh

    heatherleigh Companion

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    Oct 12, 2007

    i think arming teachers with guns is ridiculous and a plan that would surely backfire. i'm thinking of myself compared to some of the jr high/hs boys i've seen that would easily be able to take a gun from my posession. before giving teachers guns i would think they would take a step to create tighter security measures in schools.
     
  23. DaveF

    DaveF Companion

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    Guns are not the problem. I grew up on a military base. A 7th & 8th grade elective was the California Cadet Corps. It was a "kid ROTC" program that was fairly popular in CA during the '70's.

    Part of the class was marksmanship. We were taught hunter safety and how to shoot. This was done with a rifle in the cafeteria. There was a special backdrop installed, but that was it for special precautions. Students (including myself) were sent without supervision to go get the rifles and ammo from the locked storage facility on campus. YES, you read that right.

    The thought never entered our minds to do anything irresponsible.
     
  24. JoshCHT

    JoshCHT Rookie

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    Oct 13, 2007

    I think there needs to be more school psychologists and counselors in the schools. Children who have mental or emotional problems should be identified early and given treatment.

    We also have to create learning communities based on tolerance and respect. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect and bullying should not be tolerated. Prejudices need to be challenged and not encouraged.

    When I was in school, my twin and I had severe social anxiety and selective mutism. We went through very intense bullying and abuse situations with classmates and even teachers. Whether the bullying caused the social anxiety or the social anxiety caused the bullying is anyone's guess. They definitely reinforced each other though.

    We didn't understand why we felt so nervous around people or why most of the time we couldn't speak. None of the administrators, teachers, or guidance counselors tried to help us at all. If they had even suggested to us or our parents that we might have had an anxiety problem we could have gotten help sooner.

    Also many of the teachers did not protect us from the bullies, in fact some of them even encouraged the other students to pick on us. Sometimes it was teachers who bullied us.

    A lot of people don't understand that bullying can cross the line into physical abuse and sexual harrassment as well. Bullying and social isolation can have a profound impact on someone's social and emotional development.

    Some of these individuals who are bullied and have emotional disorders also have thought disorders and psychosis (like the V-Tech killer seemed to have) and that is definitely a dangerous mix.

    I think the answer to this problem is actually kinda simple. We need to actively teach and model kindness and tolerance while we are teaching students about our content areas. And we have to make sure to the best of our ability that students with mental, emotional, and/or behavoral problems are identified and recieve the treatment they desparately need early on.

    We also have to make sure that everyone is safe from overt and relational bullying in our schools as well. We have to be vigilant against bullying.

    I'm actually student teaching at the high school I went to. They have improved a lot in respect to bullying. Some of the middle schools have tolerance education week now. Theres a lot more tolerance for different types of people (socioeconomic status, special ed, people of different sizes etc). However, the administrators and the teachers still encourage homophobia and mistreatment of the gay and lesbian students. The way they treat the gay and lesbian students at my school is disgraceful.
     
  25. jmpteaches

    jmpteaches Rookie

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    Oct 14, 2007

    I think an interesting note to the topic of guns and school shootings (and one that is often debated) is metal detectors in schools. I read that this school has metal detectors but they are only used sparatically. The kid had a whole bag of weapons and ammo that he brought into the school! Personally, I don't think metal detectors are the answer...they obviously didn't stop any violence in this case. But it's interesting that a school would go through the cost of buying these devices and then not use them consistently.
    As a resident and teacher in the Cleveland suburbs, I feel saddened for the children and families of that school. The beliefs and progress of that school seem like a beacon of hope for those children in a failing public school system.
     
  26. kabd54

    kabd54 Cohort

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    Oct 14, 2007

    My sentiments exactly, Kinder - they aren't expected to learn responsibility, don't learn conflict management skills or how to stand up for themselves. It's sad really.

    And as far as guns are concerned, well... the only gun that the general public should be allowed to own is a rifle, and only then if you are a registered hunter. If you are a responsible gun owner, your gun is locked up in a secure cabinet, your ammunition is locked up as well. So... if someone were to break in to your home, what are the chances that 1) you would have time to unlock the cabinet, 2) take out the gun, 3) unlock the ammunition, 4) load the gun and 5) be ready to protect yourself - and all this before the maniac gets to you? Probably slim to none. And that's why people keep loaded guns where they are easily found by children who use them to "get back" at the bullies.

    I hate guns. It's much too easy for people to kill others. Just pull a trigger - it's fast, much too fast - and can be done without a lot of thought. And the end result causes so much pain for both families.
     

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