Severe Naming/Retrieval issues

Discussion in 'Special Education' started by Leatherette, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Leatherette

    Leatherette Comrade

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    Nov 22, 2011

    I need help with next steps for a student (first grade) who has severe naming/retrieval issues. This student can do many conceptual things, but cannot tell you the names of letters or numbers. If given a group of letters or numbers and asked to "pick the _____", she knows them. She cannot name sight words or read at all, and does not generate her own writing. She can dictate a great story, though. She can match in word sorts if there are pictures.

    What now? How can I teach her to read, or figure out if she can read some, but just not aloud, since that is naming...?
     
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  3. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Nov 22, 2011

    So she can pick out single letters or numbers, right? Hm. Could she pick out pairs of letters? Or could she pick out a word like "is" or a CVC word in a sentence, if asked to?
     
  4. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    Nov 22, 2011

    Has this child been tested? She sounds extremely dyslexic to me.
     
  5. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Nov 23, 2011

    It definitely sounds like they need to be tested. If they have been tested already, they need further testing (i.e. the GORT), possibly from a neuropsychologist.
     
  6. Leatherette

    Leatherette Comrade

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    Nov 23, 2011

    I know that she needs to be tested by a neuropsych, but we don't have them on staff, and her family has minimal health coverage - I don't think they could swing this.....but I am looking into it.

    She has been tested by a regular school psych - that is why she is in special ed. - but the tests used are not quite capturing this problem. She presented as a kid who just couldn't do much initially, but as we have gotten to know her and her cognitive strengths, this naming issue is more pronounced. What I have read though says that if you are born with this, it cannot be changed, as opposed to someone who had the naming ability, then had a TBI, lost the ability, and could then re-learn it.

    I have been a special ed teacher for over ten years, and have never seen something like this.
     
  7. Proud2BATeacher

    Proud2BATeacher Phenom

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    Nov 23, 2011

    I have a student with FAS for a second year (gr. 3) and we are still working on recognizing number 1-10. He got numbers 1-5 last year and now recognizes numbers 8 and 10 consistently. I do tons of rote learning and flash cards with him. I find that associating a number with a "picture" that he can place in his mind or a fun rhyme has really helped.
     
  8. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Nov 24, 2011

    The school can pay for it.

    If the school has performed an evaluation within the past 12 months, the parent can send a letter to the school requesting an Independent Educational Evaluation, for the reason that the schools evaluations were not adequate in properly gauging the student's learning issues. The school will have to pay for it. Or take the parent to Due Process. The school has x days to respond (I believe it is 60 calendar days in IDEA, although states can set less restrictive limits like 30 school days). Then the district sends the parent a list of evaluators they recommend the parent go to (i.e. the ones the school has on contract and will write whatever the administration wants within reason), but the parent should go to an outside one (Ones at regional childrens hospitals are good, or if the parent can find a good neuropsych in the area, maybe one that has done IEEs for students at the school without having a contract or affiliation with the school)
     
  9. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Nov 24, 2011

    I had a child like this many years ago. He was VERY bright, but couldn't name any letters or numbers. I never found out what the outcome of this child was after he left my classroom. I would appreciate any information you can tell me in case this happens again. What causes this? What do I tell the parents to do?
     
  10. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    Nov 24, 2011

    Grammy Teacher, an inability to recognize letters and in some cases numbers can be related to Dyslexia. Along with an inability to retrieve specific vocabulary words, it's a huge red flag for a language disability.

    When I have children like this is kindergarten, I tell the parents they need to get the children evaluated. I teach in a private school, so it's the parents responsibility to get it done.

    In addition to that, I usually do some orton gillingham with these children and if that works, then I'm convinced it's a language disability since it's a scientifically proven method to help these children learn to read.
     
  11. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Nov 24, 2011

    Thank you, tracy. Do you think this is a huge concern for 4 year olds? I have both 4 and 5 year olds and there are a couple who seem to be slower than some others.
     
  12. TeacherGroupie

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    Nov 24, 2011

    The sentence I boldfaced makes me think that the issue isn't recognition. If you ask her to make the sound that the letter "s" makes, can she do that? If you ask her to point to the letter that makes the sound "o", can she do that? Can she look at a 6 and say "six"? If you ask her how many pencils are on the table, could she point to "6"?
     
  13. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Nov 25, 2011

    The earlier remediation is done, the better. I believe a statistic I read said that if a child fails to get remediation for a reading-based disability before third grade, most likely they will never read at grade level.
     
  14. Leatherette

    Leatherette Comrade

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    Nov 25, 2011

    The sentence I boldfaced makes me think that the issue isn't recognition. If you ask her to make the sound that the letter "s" makes, can she do that? If you ask her to point to the letter that makes the sound "o", can she do that? Can she look at a 6 and say "six"? If you ask her how many pencils are on the table, could she point to "6"?

    I have not tested her on all of those things not using the naming, but yes, I think that is what I will see. Also, she has great visual discrimination skills, if that helps anyone unlock the mystery. Thanks everyone for the responses.
     
  15. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    Nov 25, 2011

    For 4 yr olds I'm not so concerned because they could just not be ready developmentally for learning letters and their sounds. If I've been working with a 5 yr old on a regular basis and they're not getting it or they have inconsistent letter sound identification, then I start to worry.

    One of the criteria for a diagnosis of dyslexia or "specific language disorder" is that the child has had access to good phonics instruction. So, if a child has had good phonics instruction and is still having a difficult time, then I'd start to worry.
     
  16. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 26, 2011

    I guess I'm somewhat confused about what's happening here. Initially it was mentioned that the student can't name or retrieve letters/numbers, but I'm not sure what that's referring to here. Later posts seem to indicate that the student can in fact identify letters/numbers when presented with a list of possibilities, which seems to indicate that not only can the student identify/name/retrieve letters and numbers, but can discriminate between different letters numbers.

    If that's the case (and I think this was asked at some point), can she identify the sounds that letters make? If not, then it sounds like you're talking about a phonics issue - that she does not know specific letter-sound correspondences, or that she does not understand the concept of what a letter-sound correspondence is.

    If that's the case, I'd start with a previous poster's suggestion of a Orton-Gillingham-based (or similar) approach - very phonics heavy, starting with teaching specific letter-sound correspondences in a particular order, then assessing how she responds to that instruction.

    While behind, a child in the first semester of first grade that struggles with letter-sound correspondences isn't necessarily an overt sign of dyslexia or some other neurological condition, depending on her history of instruction, current instruction, and response to instruction. For example, some schools do not use an explicit, direct instruction phonics based approach to teaching reading - in such a case, it would be natural to see kids with the issues you are describing.

    So, I guess to clarify, what teaching procedures have you used with teaching specific letter-sound correspondences, and did you focus on one letter at a time moving through an intentional sequence of correspondences, with adequate time and support given for acquisition, mastery, fluency, etc? If so, how did she respond to that instruction?

    If the issue you're mentioning is that she CAN identify correspondences in isolation, but not in the context of words, the issue may be more related to blending. I'd then be interested to hear what instruction she's been exposed to related to blending, starting with CV/VC/CVC words or letter chunks, and moving on from there.
     
  17. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Nov 26, 2011

    Hold on, EdEd: identifying/discriminating and naming are not in fact the same thing. I concede that it's not common for a child to be able to identify letters without being able to name them verbally - but it's not unheard of, either.

    Leatherette, you mentioned that this child can match in word sorts if there are pictures. Can she match a CVC word with its picture? Given five CVC words and five pictures, could she match them?
     
  18. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    TeacherGroupie, I was working off the assumption of Leatherette's follow-up to your post when she guessed that she would find the student able to name. To the extent that that's not what she finds, I agree with you.
     
  19. TeacherGroupie

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    Nov 26, 2011

    I'd also love to know whether this child can generate a sentence from prewritten words (or possibly from a combination of words and pictures).
     
  20. Leatherette

    Leatherette Comrade

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    Nov 28, 2011

    Today I showed her 4 sight words at a time and said, "Point to _________." She was 75% accurate.

    When I do naming exercises with her, she has just as much trouble identifying shapes, colors and everyday objects by name as she does numbers and letters. That is why I was approaching this as a naming issue rather than a dyslexia issue (not to say they couldn't co-exist). I would categorize naming issues as language related, for sure.
     
  21. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Yeah, I think that's a good direction to go in - language. I think may have previously suggested, by a speech eval probably makes good sense.
     
  22. TeacherGroupie

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    Nov 29, 2011

    Just curious, Leatherette: by "sight word", do you mean 'non-decodable' or do you mean 'high-frequency decodable'?
     
  23. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    The reason I suggested dyslexia is because one of the signs of dyslexia is an inability to come up with specific words for things, or names as you have said. These children will sometimes talk in generalities, saying, "Do you know where that thing is?" or have an inability come up with the correct vocabulary word.

    Have you tried using 3 dimensional objects to teach her names of things?
     
  24. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Deficits in rapid naming are often a component of what we call dyslexia when these deficits interfere with a student's ability to read. People with a rapid naming deficit and other deficits in the area of language or orthographic processing tend to be considered to have a double deficit making learning to read at grade level very difficult. It requires intensive 1:1 services to help the student learn to read. These services typically need to continue longer than with students without a double deficit. So, yes, naming is sometimes part of dyslexia.
     
  25. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    a2z, rapid naming is different than being able to come up with a specific vocabulary word for something. Rapid naming is usually associated with children who have many different types of processing issues, not just dyslexia. Just an FYI.
     
  26. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    tracykaliski, I was actually responding to leatherette's post about the struggle with the student naming colors, numbers, letters (RAN) issues. I should have quoted it because I see it caused confusion in the thread.

    However, I do appreciate you point out that retrieval of words is different because it was possible I was unaware. I also know that RAN issues can be associated with other processing issues as well, not just dyslexia.

    My point was more that a child that has RAN issues and is having trouble reading will have more difficulty learning how to read than a child that does not also have the RAN issues and is struggling to read.
     
  27. TeacherGroupie

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    Leatherette's other really interesting question, of course, is how one figures out what this child can do in terms of reading, since fluent reading aloud is presumably not an option. That's why I suggested tasks that wouldn't have the child saying the words.

    It would be interesting to know whether this child can respond to a simple written request (such as "Get the doll").
     
  28. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Definitely interesting discussion in the last few posts, but I'd point out that a solid identification of a rapid naming deficit and/or dyslexia is probably beyond the scope of this forum, as well as not substantially crucial to providing services, at least by a teacher. While an identification of dyslexia or SLD may open up doors for additional services, there would need to be a referral for evaluation that would solve that particular issue. If the child is already receiving special education services, though, I'm not sure what additional might be available, other than through private routes.

    For purposes of what can be done in the classroom, there isn't research that I'm aware of that indicates the efficacy of interventions for dyslexia vs. children with other forms of reading difficulty. Because of this, I'd return to my previous post a page or so ago (quoted below), and specifically move in the direction of identifying where skills break down, and begin a direct instruction/OG type intervention program with ample opportunity for practice, etc. At some point if such a program proves unsuccessful, additional opportunities might be considered, but at this point whether there is a naming issue will not necessarily lead to specific interventions that will prove effective as opposed to if the child did not, in fact, have retrieval issues.

    (This is not to say that knowing more about why a child struggles to read wouldn't be helpful in terms of understanding struggles a child may likely encounter, or perhaps identifying some accommodations, but learning more would most likely require an evaluation beyond the scope of teacher, such as administration of the CTOPP).

     
  29. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I have to disagree with your sentiments. The OP is a Special Education Teacher asking how to teach this child to read, not a general education teacher with a child in inclusion asking how she can help in the gen ed setting.

    That is why knowing exactly what deficits are and methods and intensities of those methods is highly important. If the district doesn' t have that information about the child, further testing by staff that knows how to break down all possible deficit areas need to be completed and the program with the right intensity needs to be provided. Seems OP is at a loss here.

    OP, what reading program are you using with this child? Do you have any specialists in your district that you can contact? Does this child have a thorough assessment of all areas of suspected deficits or does the child have just the standard assessment?

    I'm not trying to diagnose here. Just lead you to paths that might help you help this child.
     
  30. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    Nice post a2z. I agree totally. If the special ed teacher isn't aware of the child's specific issues, more testing is needed to figure out what exactly is going on for this child. The more specific information you have, the better you can guide the interventions to meet the needs of that child.
     
  31. TeacherGroupie

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    The standard tests depend crucially on a child's ability to name phonemes and words, however - and it seems to me that this is precisely Leatherette's point: what if this child knows things that she can't name?
     
  32. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Then the speech and language pathologist combined with the teacher must come up with a plan to build the rapid automatized naming skills of the student. Often this takes much more repetition for students with these issues. While a child can point to letters when the teacher give the sounds or match pictures to words to show the child knows what the word is thus showing reading ability, the student need more work in the area of verbalizing these letter sounds, names, or sight and/or dolch words.

    However, proper therapy to help with the naming issues will be essential and a slow process. Most research available shows that students with ran issues show some improvement but typically fail to get to normal range particularly if they are in the severe range to start.

    I suggest to the OP to work with the speech and language pathologist regarding the ran issues and using pointing methods to determine what she knows. Then use OG methods with lots of repetition to help the child learn the unknow letters.
     
  33. TeacherGroupie

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    But what if the kid really does KNOW the letters and can do things, but just can't NAME them? While the majority of people learn to read via naming and standard phonics, I very much doubt that that's the only path - and in this case it's not at all clear that naming-and-phonics is the sole legitimate pathway to pursue.
     
  34. Leatherette

    Leatherette Comrade

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    Yep - I am a special ed teacher, she is already id'd as DD, and she does receive speech services. I do many RAN exercises with her, and she can get to a certain point, but not move beyond it, and there are still things that are really hard for her to name (ie: the color yellow, but not other colors, most letters, and most numbers).

    The rub is that if she was born without the ability to name accurately (damage due to prenatal exposures - factor here), all of the research I have read says that all you can do is circumvent the naming issue by making accommodations. You cannot train the brain to make connections it has never made, unlike with a stroke patient that has lost the ability to name that was there before. Thank you for all of the thoughtful replies!
     
  35. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    That is only a rub if it has been proven that she has brain damage. However, if she is learning colors and some letters it is highly possible it will just take a lot of time and repetition to do what others can do in a much shorter period of time. I'm thinking years not weeks.
     
  36. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I think may not have been as clear as I had hoped - I definitely agree with the need for specific assessment data. What I was suggesting was exactly what data may or may not be needed. For those suggesting that knowing a RAN deficit exists would be a crucial component of assessment and intervention planning, what additional interventions would you deliver related to phonemic awareness or phonics for a child with a RAN deficit (as opposed to without)? For example, I've seen some recommend an OG-based program. What interventions would be used within such a program for a child with a RAN deficit that would NOT be used with a child without such a deficit? While a RAN deficit may predict that a greater number of repetitions may be needed, how would you all change the intervention structure based on a RAN deficit?

    Also, I haven't studied RAN extensively - I'm curious if anyone knows of any particular studies that suggest that interventions related to RAN but NOT using letters/letter combinations (such as colors, symbols, etc.) effectively increase phonemic awareness/phonics skills moreso than just delivery of phonics/phonemic awareness interventions by themselves.
     
  37. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    RAVE-O is the only program I know of to help children with RAN issues and reading.
     
  38. EdEd

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    Thanks a2z - I'm going to look into that soon!
     

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