SCOTUS recent ruling- Hobby Lobby

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by lucybelle, Jun 30, 2014.

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  1. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Some IUDs may last up to 12 years. The most popular one lasts 3-5.

    Even with a sliding scale, many low-income folks are going to be paying a few hundred dollars. That's a lot of money to shell out up front, even if it will end up being very cost effective in the end.
     
  2. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    Can you explain this?
     
  3. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    I wish we could rep posts on this board.

    Great post. :thumb:
     
  4. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

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    My school insurance did not cover IUD's. I didn't go off finding a new job that would. I took responsibility and paid for it myself. I had to go that route after having my daughter because weight loss surgery patients don't absorb all of the hormones in oral BC. I didn't want to risk getting pregnant before I was ready and I tried other forms (the ring and the patch) and couldn't do those. I didn't go off and have a hissy fit or sue because my insurance didn't cover the IUD. I just found a way to pay for it.

    This is a link I posted on FB and my 2 cents that I added to it...

    http://allenbwest.com/2014/06/obama-smackdown-week-two-hobby-lobby-wins/

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...verage-for-16-types-of-contraception-n1857354

    They will still cover 16 types of BC. 16 out of 20 types.
     
  5. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    Yeah because there aren't any married people who decide to use birth control because they don't want any more kids right. Ugh.

    I did like the comment about how they import their products from China where they regulate how many children families can have. So it's ok to spend money on products where people are making those choices-that doesn't interefere with their religious beliefs, just not on employees.

    They still will be able to use whatever birth control they choose and it will be covered-it's just the government that will pay for it, not the company.
     
  6. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    And your average 19-year old just out looking for a job (Sundays off? Bonus!) has the wherewithal and maturity to ask that?
     
  7. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Interesting standard for personal responsibility... 19 is considered an adult in the US. Maybe we should make adulthood start at 30.
     
  8. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    It is what it is.
     
  9. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    Sorry, but I find most of the posts in this thread (including some of my own) about things that are inconsequential. The only real question (in my mind, anyway) is:

    Should an employer be able to pick and choose what healthcare he/she/they will provide based on religion or personal preference?

    Because, as of today, employers (with some exceptions) are mandated to provide healthcare coverage to their employees. They've never been able to pick and choose before. They've never been given the opportunity to say things like "Oh, we don't cover the HPV vaccine because we want to discourage you from having sex." Or, "If you smoke, we're not going to cover your treatment for lung cancer or emphysema because that goes against our principles." Once you open the door to allowing employers to pick and choose the healthcare they provide, why can't they make choices like this?

    So, this really isn't about "Well, it's not that expensive anyway" or "You could always look for another job." It's about setting a precedent for how employers in this country provide healthcare to their employees. No one really knows the fallout from this, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    In the meantime, no one has addressed the point I brought up earlier and the point I bring up above:

    If you agree with this ruling, do you also agree that employers should not have to provide any healthcare whatsoever if it goes against their religious principles, thus creating a fundamental shift in our labor laws?

    Because if you agree with the ruling, I don't see how you couldn't also agree with the above statement.
     
  10. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I absolutely agree with the ruling. I also believe that if the business owner has a significant religious objection to medical care, the business owner shouldn't have to pay for it or offer it.

    What that means, the business owner may have problems finding employees to work for him.

    Would I have a problem if I was mandated to work for that employer? Absolutely. But no one is required to work for Hobby Lobby and no one would be required to work for a business owner who won't provide medical insurance because the practice of medicine is against his religion.

    Obama care and the mandating of employers having to provide insurance was a fundamental shift in labor laws. Prior to that businesses weren't required to provide insurance or pay a fine. This concern about a "fundamental shift in labor laws" is coming a bit late to this conversation. The mandate is new in terms of labor laws. Never before was insurance a requirement for individuals or businesses. So, I'm not quite sure why this argument about labor laws fundamentally changing is such a big deal to you except for the fact that you don't like the very small exception to the fundamental labor law change that has recently taken place because of Obamacare.
     
  11. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    My answer: NO.

    I am so disheartened with the comments (not just here, but everywhere) that say there are still 16 other medications you can take. So now every social media commenter is a medical expert? I usually like to get my prescriptions from my doctor. Oral contraceptives are not just for birth control. And not all girls and women who take oral contraceptives are single sluts only out to prevent pregnancy so they can sleep around.

    It makes me ill, the way women are turning on women. Men, well some specific men, already turned, but the war on women has taken a cannibalistic turn.
     
  12. Myrisophilist

    Myrisophilist Habitué

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    It's important to step back, drop the emotional responses (which are automatic and normal), and ask ourselves what implications this ruling has for corporations -- and us -- in the future. Personally, I feel that if a business is going to be public, it should abide by all the laws set out for businesses, including those that apply to insurance. The Court's decision opens the door for more exceptions.
     
  13. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Then, good thing for Hobby Lobby it is a private business, not a public business. You must agree that it is ok for Hobby Lobby owner to be able to adhere to his strongly-held religious convictions.
     
  14. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    No, I don't actually - not when it comes to how he is allowed to treat his employees or the healthcare he provides. He can practice his religion any way he wants, but not force his belief system on his employees. It's unamerican.
     
  15. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Sorry, that post wasn't meant for you but for Myrisophilist who said, "Personally, I feel that if a business is going to be public, it should abide by all the laws set out for businesses, including those that apply to insurance."

    Hobby Lobby is a private business, not public.
     
  16. bros

    bros Phenom

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    here we go

    "In a brief filed with the Supreme Court, the Greens object to covering Plan B, Ella, and IUDs because they claim that these products can prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in a woman's uterus—a process the Greens consider abortion. But researchers reject the notion that emergency contraceptive pills prevent implantation the implantation of a fertilized egg. Instead, they work by delaying ovulation or making it harder for sperm to swim to the egg. The Green's contention that the pills cause abortions is a central pillar of their argument for gutting the contraception mandate. Yet, for years, Hobby Lobby's health insurance plans did cover Plan B and Ella. It was only in 2012, when the Greens considered filing a lawsuit against the Affordable Care Act, that they dropped these drugs from the plan."

    Religion and business should be kept separate, unless, of course, it is a religious non-profit, then it is something else altogether. Corporations and companies should've never been given corporate personhood and corporations should not have any first amendment rights.
     
  17. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    I know who it was meant for, but I was offering my opinion anyway. :). And, I know that it's a private company, but that doesn't change my opinion. I don't think private companies should be forcing their religion on their employees any more than public companies can.
     
  18. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    We will start here with what the FDA thinks. Since the government states it can prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, the government must concede that it believes this to be true.
    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety...ormationforPatientsandProviders/ucm109795.htm

    Another site which links the following information:
    http://www.morningafterpill.org/how-does-it-work.html

    How do the PREVEN® emergency contraceptive pills prevent pregnancy?
    PREVEN® can stop or delay ovulation (the release of an egg), it can stop sperm from fertilizing an egg if it was already released, and it can stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus."
    Source: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/preven-ec.html



    How Does Plan B® Work?
    Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may prevent pregnancy by temporarily stopping the release of an egg from a woman's ovary, or it may prevent fertilization. It may also prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. "
    Source: http://www.planbonestep.com/faqs.aspx
     
  19. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    People keep saying that this isn't a women's issue. I do think it's interesting to note that all the female judges voted against it.
     
  20. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    Maybe the country needs a good dose of laissez-faire. In my opinion there are far too much government mandates in businesses today. Just sayin' ... :2cents:
     
  21. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Why is that interesting? They are liberal leaning. It is no surprise with a split court that the liberal judges will vote the way they did.
     
  22. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    so you don't think that people of faith should allow their beliefs to guide them in their daily business?
     
  23. Myrisophilist

    Myrisophilist Habitué

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    Not when their daily business is elucidating the line that separates church and state (i.e. being a Supreme Court justice).
     
  24. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    It should be an interesting discussion when euthanasia becomes a mandatory included service in health care. I think we are a long way from that, but at some point it won't surprise me. I wonder who will believe that an employer should be mandated to pay to end someone's existence.
     
  25. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

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    That is a scary thought.... UGH!!!!
     
  26. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    Just yesterday we had a local 17 year old bury her 8 lb baby in the back yard. Her dad found it dead in a shallow grave when he was tipped off by a friend who saw a text message. The young lady cleaned herself up after delivering the baby and went to work. The parents claim they never knew she was pregnant. I think birth control is the least of our worries in this country.
     
  27. teachinnola

    teachinnola Rookie

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    I am honestly pretty indifferent towards this because even a person who works at Hobby Lobby can just go out and buy insurance without participating in the company's insurance. It's up to the individual to decide if the compensation is worth it without insurance. I personally take the approach that a2z does and ask about benefits before accepting a job.

    I do wonder how likely it is that a 19 year old working at Hobby Lobby would use their insurance instead of parent's, school's, or hell, reduced price ACA plans.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    But 19-year-olds aren't the only ones who might be interested in Hobby Lobby's insurance. I'm sure that there are plenty of middle-aged folks who work there. Contrary to popular opinion, there are plenty of stable, middle-aged women in need of birth control options and, gasp, even Plan B.

    What gets me with all this is that it really feels like women in this country are being punished because of their sexuality. This belief that only promiscuous sluts might be in need of birth control or morning after pills or abortions is not only factually inaccurate, but it's also insulting, demeaning, and, quite frankly, appears to be a way to keep women "in their place".

    To responsibly have sex, a woman may need access to birth control.

    Without easy access to birth control, a woman may need access to something like Plan B.

    Without easy access to birth control or Plan B, a woman may need access to an abortion.

    It's like the powers that be are deciding for women that they can't have access to ANY of those things, that the alternative is to "have a sense of personal responsibility" and either become abstinent or find a way to pay for birth control, Plan B, and/or an abortion.

    We've already established that many, many, many jobs in this country, particularly those available to uneducated women, do not pay a liveable wage. How are those women supposed to pay for their birth control, Plan B, or abortions? Bill Maher said, "If Col. Sanders isn't going to pay the lady behind the counter enough to live on, then Uncle Sam has to, and I for one am getting a little tired of helping highly profitable companies pay their workers." Except here, Uncle Sam isn't helping women pay for those essentials, because those essentials aren't covered by insurance. When are women in this country going to get a break?

    And let's not forget the attitude that many people in this country have that a woman should not have access to Plan B or an abortion at all (or perhaps only if she has been raped), which sort of feels like a "you made your bed, now lie in it" sort of thing...except that it involves another human being, whom the woman might not be able to care for properly. Does it really seem like a good idea to essentially force a woman to parent a child or carry a child to term when she doesn't want to? Does it really seem fair to essentially force a child to be brought into a life where he or she may not be wanted? Does it really seem okay to shame women into becoming mothers? So that's why I feel like women who choose to have sex are punished in this country. And that disgusts me.

    I am starting to ramble so it's probably time I stop. I'm sure that my thoughts don't make sense here because they are all jumbled up in my mind and I am angry about this topic.
     
  29. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    From what I'm hearing, HL's healthcare plan provides for 16 birth control options:

    Male condoms
    Female condoms
    Diaphragms with spermicide
    Sponges with spermicide
    Cervical caps with spermicide
    Spermicide alone
    Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin (“Combined Pill)
    Birth-control pills with progestin alone (“The Mini Pill)
    Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
    Contraceptive patches
    Contraceptive rings
    Progestin injections
    Implantable rods
    Vasectomies
    Female sterilization surgeries
    Female sterilization implants
     
  30. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    What it doesn't cover are IUDs and Plan B, to my knowledge.

    At a point in my life, an IUD was my only option. Allergies, hormonal issues, and a desire to not be permanently sterilized made it so. In any event, that's a discussion for me and my doctor, one for which my employer doesn't need to be present.

    There are many situations where Plan B might be necessary, and they don't all involve irresponsibility. My friend needed it when she discovered that the antibiotics she had been taking interfered with the pill--her pharmacist didn't mention that to her before the fact. She's married, has kids, and wasn't on some crazy sex-filled bender or anything.
     
  31. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    Again, the point is that the U.S. Supreme Court just decided that employers can pick and choose what healthcare coverage they feel like providing based on personal beliefs rather than what the employee and his or her doctor deems optimal. This is a precedent. It really doesn't matter that Hobby Lobby deigns to let its insurance company offer some other birth control options.
     
  32. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    With this decision .......... Religious Liberty won! That's not a bad thing. The sad part is instead of a 5-4 vote ...... it should have been 9-0. There are too many government "mandates." (And yes I know I'm in the minority here) :2cents:
     
  33. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    Well, the religious beliefs of 2 families won.

    It surprises me that people who are anti-government involvement are for this decision-the government (ie us) will now pay for the birth control for these employees.
     
  34. nyteacher29

    nyteacher29 Comrade

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    Many often forget that the first amendment is freedom from religion as well so I do not agree with the idea that this is about the first amendment. It's about controlling what contraceptions women should have easy access to. Not all women who resort to plan b are sexually irresponsible. I also fear that this will lead to a big increase in amount of tax money going to help unwanted pregnancies as well as an increase in single mothers who can't afford to support a child (and do not tell me then she shouldn't have sex. There are plenty of women who become pregnant due to faulty contraceptions)
     
  35. teachinnola

    teachinnola Rookie

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    Well like I asked before, what's wrong with finding an independent plan made available through the healthcare market place? If a woman is so hard up that she can't afford the birth control, I would think that she could get a really inexpensive plan thanks to ACA. My last comment wasn't just about 19 year olds. It was a General statement that there are other options out there. I'd like to know what's wrong with those?
     
  36. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    As far as I'm aware, nobody was going to be ordered to take birth control pills against their will. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  37. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    I think you should be able to choose your own birth control methods, gr3teacher. I don't think Hobby Lobby (or any other employer for that matter) should be required to pay for them.... That should be between you and your insurer ... not Hobby Lobby or the general tax payer (like me).
     
  38. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    But every other insurer pays for birth control....

    Birth control is beneficial to many people beyond just the person taking it.
     
  39. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    And the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare dictated what healthcare coverage must be provided regardless of what patients want or need.:|

    Hobby Lobby's insurance covers birth control, just not two methods.


    How are you seeing this happening? As employees they are covered by HL's insurance. If they choose options not covered by their insurance, there are low cost options available...
     
  40. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    The first amendment is NOT freedom from religion.
     
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