School Uniforms

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Bella2010, Jun 15, 2011.

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  1. shouldbeasleep

    shouldbeasleep Enthusiast

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    Jun 15, 2011

    Regardless of my like or dislike of uniforms or of strictly enforcing all rules, it seems that the board, or at least one of them, has a problem that is blowing up in his face.

    I would think that he would simply ask the rest of the board members to survey the parents. It could be a vocal minority against uniforms. It could be that they are really upset at this board member and it's not about uniforms.

    I hate it when there is a pi$$ing contest that distracts from real issues that impact education.
     
  2. beanie

    beanie Rookie

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    In Australia about 90% of schools have a school uniform. Some are stricter than others, but it is an important part of Australian schooling. It helps to create an identity and a connection between peers. It also encourages a sense of belonging, and really helps out kids who don't have the income to be wearing different clothes every day.

    Our uniform policy states that children must adhere to school colours (red and navy blue) but has listed all the styles and types of clothing they can wear. As a general rule, tshirts are red polos (most have one with the school logo, but it's not mandatory), navy blue polar fleece, or fleece jumper (again, most have the one with the school logo), navy blue trackpants/shorts/skirts and the girls can wear a red and white check school dress in summer.

    Most of our uniform items can be bought at places like Kmart, Target and Big W, at a very reasonable cost. Our Grade 6s have a special Grade 6 hoodie for something a bit special in their final year.

    Even the teachers own lots of school branded/logo'ed products - I love my school 'uniform' clothes - great to wear to sports events, excursions, when representing the school - and not to mention EASY to organise in the mornings...

    Uniforms make life easy...
     
  3. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    Jun 15, 2011

    :thumb:
     
  4. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    My students have no idea what I personally think about them wearing uniforms. I teach them from day one that it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with the rules. As of now, they are the rule and we follow them. We also talk about options they have to let others know how they feel. (Letters to the principal, school board, etc.)
     
  5. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    I love uniforms for many reasons. As parent I think it's cheaper and less time consuming when getting ready to go to school in the morning. My daughter now spends more time in the morning trying to pick the perfect outfit in order to look good in high school.

    As a female, I know what clothes mean for girls. I was blessed to have worn uniform when I was young. Otherwise I would have been bullied or criticized for not wearing the latest fashion trends.

    The most important reason I love uniforms is that I was able to attend a very expensive private school where most of my classmates were very rich and could afford very expensive clothes. Thanks to uniforms, we all looked the same and I felt very confident going to school even if when I wasn't rich at all.
     
  6. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I only wish districts would stop proclaiming that uniforms prevent students from knowing who "has" and who "has not". Just. Not. True. Might it help? Yeah, a little. But it's fairly easy to tell that the boy with the filthy britches, oily hair, tattered shoes, and no school supplies is a "has not" student. That said, I'm generally happy with our uniform policy. Ideally, students would be issued school t-shirts and then could wear their own jeans, but...I'm fine with how it stands currently with one exception.

    We have too many "reward" dress-down days. If a school is going to embrace a uniform policy, it should not be made to seem as a punishment, which is what happens when students are rewarded with a dress-down day. If it's okay to wear whatever you wish for making straight As, why was it not okay to dress as you choose the day before and the day after? It's just confusing to students. Additionally, on those designated days, they are CRAZY and we still have to police their choices. "Yes, you were permitted to dress down, but you're still not allowed to wear flip-flops, tanks..."
     
  7. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Jun 15, 2011

    Why don't you let the students know your opinion. I can recall multiple times when students were disgruntled about something, I would share my opinion by letting them know that "this does not come from me, it is just something we have to do." They usually understand that it means it comes from the Principal.
     
  8. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I understand the self-expression concept being very important. But, I also believe that wearing uniforms teach kids the importance to dressing appropriately. Aren't we supposed to prepare them for the real world? I've seen many teens in their pajamas going to school. How are these students going to grow up to get used to dressing appropriately for work?
     
  9. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I agree, absolutely. But that assumes, of course, that their role models at school are "dressed appropriately."
     
  10. cutNglue

    cutNglue Magnifico

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I think the whole point really boils down to whether the community has a right to influence a decision like this particularly since this is a public school.
     
  11. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I don't tell them so that they form their own opinion, not what they think I want to hear. Every year I have a mix, kids who are 100% against to kids who are 100% for and everywhere in between. It's a topic that we use to learn how to "debate" with each other. I just stay out of the debate.

     
  12. LUCHopefulTeach

    LUCHopefulTeach Habitué

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    Jun 16, 2011

    This reinforces your idea of the us vs. them philosophy and reinforces a negative attitude against the principal.

    It's not your place to share your opinion on school policies with your students.
     
  13. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Jun 16, 2011

    Wow, thanks for bringing that up, LUC. You're right, of course, but then the school described in the OP hardly seems to worry about fostering the "Us v. Them" philosophy.

    Actually, it's rather typical for schools to have non-negotiable stances*, zero tolerance policies, and the like. I suspect this does quite a bit to reinforce the impression of an "Us v. Them" relationship.

    I don't have a problem with strict rules, but when they are strict there ought to be thorough reason, justification, and discussion with all concerned. "We follow the rules because we should be obedient," is a dangerous principle which boils down to "just following orders".

    I like that some teach appropriate means of protest to rules that aren't agreeable. At some point (not over uniforms, most likely) , lessons from history teach us that willful disobedience is necessary to protest effectively.

    I agree that's what it boils down to, and I can't think we can come to a reasonable conclusion that a community cannot influence this sort of decision.

    Incidentally, I really like this conversation, and don't have a real problem with how any of you describe handling it, particularly since there are others who balance it out.


    * at least, non-negotiable to some.
     
  14. LUCHopefulTeach

    LUCHopefulTeach Habitué

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I agree that some schools don't worry about an us vs. them philosophy but I think that as teachers we need to try our hardest not to encourage this to our students. I strongly disagree with bob believing that we should be telling our students our negative opinions about the policies and that this isn't "our" rule by the "principals" rule. I believe that this is creating a new students/teachers vs. administrators environment that we, teachers, shouldn't be fostering.
     
  15. Bella2010

    Bella2010 Habitué

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    Jun 16, 2011

    It sounds like there are a lot of parents and students who will be attending the next board meeting. IDK - we're a town the only town in our area who has uniforms. The next school who has uniforms is a major city of more than 100,000. Our population is about 12,000. I kind of think it's time for the board members to weigh the benefits and the risks. Everyone is attacking a particular board member, which is completely uncalled for. I think the reason he's coming under attack is because he's the board president, so he's the most vocal about it. Sometimes I think this is a matter of simple stubbornness. Like I mentioned somewhere else, a lot of people are threatening to vote down an upcoming bond issue that would help finance a new grade center and improvements to schools until it's built. If that happens, I'm curious to see what will happen to the uniforms.

    I guess we'll see how it goes.

    Beth
     
  16. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I'm trying to find the uniform policy for my former district. It was brutal and a pain to keep up with.

    Kids must be written up, receive detention, and eventually SUSPENDED for 3 infractions. Infractions include: No belt (high poverty school so the kids couldn't afford belts. Teachers would take strings so the kids could tie it around them), socks must be navy blue, no light blue, no other shade of blue...every color they required had to be exact. Absolutely no exceptions, ever!
    Too bad if working single mom didn't have time to wash the socks so they could have a clean pair. If they came to school with the wrong color socks they would receive an infraction, warning note to parents. That happened to a friend of mine. She doesn't have a washing machine so she has to wash at family members' homes. She got behind and her daughter ended up getting detention for wearing something (socks I think ) of the wrong color.


    Must tuck in shirts at all time. Jackets could not have any logos on them. No jackets could be worn inside, period. Even if the rooms were freezing. The list goes on. I had to STUDY the dress code so that I could keep it all together in my head. I think it was ridiculous.
     
  17. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Jun 16, 2011

    Why can a teacher not share their own opinion, even if done in a discreet way. The phrase "we are doing it because we have to", has been used on many occasions in my classroom. This is usually said when the have to does not come from me. This serves the purpose of letting them know where the direction comes from on the issue, and if they are going to be mad at someone for having to do it, I don't need them mad at me for something I don't agree with.
    I have told students on multiple occasions; if they disagree with something, let their parents know so that they can try and do something about it.
     
  18. jteachette

    jteachette Comrade

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I didn't see any posts about this, but I know that some of the schools here went to uniforms to keep the gang colors out of the schools. We actually had to delete a shirt color from our uniform because of the gangs in the area. It stopped some of the fighting among the middle school kids. I know that the rest of the schools in the area did the same. We all pretty much wear the same colors, but with our different school logos. It's safer for the kids!
     
  19. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Jun 16, 2011

    :yeahthat: You can be a professional and follow the rules, yet you can still let your students know that a certain rule is not your personal philosophy.

    When 2 of my female students (5th grade) viciously attacked another girl in PE, dragged her, & damaged her eye which required her to be sent to the hospital, I professionally spoke up against a particular policy. (A policy I didn't know about when I was hired).

    That policy is that all students have the right to remain in classroom until the parents are notified by letter (that takes days to complete), and the paper work needed to remove a student is complete.

    So the vicious attackers were allowed to remain in my classroom for the next few days. My other students were extremely upset and some of them were taking it out on me. They were angry, rightfully so. I had to explain that it is absolutely not my policy. It is the rule of the principal and I have to do what I am told, but I let them know very professionally and just by the tone of my voice that i do not agree with such policy.

    When they were upset with district issues I also politely told them that I am just following the rules, but I always gave them the idea to speak up for something they don't agree with and start by letting their parents know how they feel. Get involved.

    If it's a major issue (as mine was above) I would start looking for another job before I blindly follow a principal's harsh or harmful rule just because they are the Principal. I have a voice too and I believe in using it, and not always sitting back silently as the powers enforce things that may be harmful to others. It all depends on the situation.

    ETA:
    In the OP's case I think the parents are going about it all wrong though. They could get their message across so much better without those type of aggressive tactics. Those tactics don't send a good message to the kids.
     
  20. chemteach55

    chemteach55 Connoisseur

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    Jun 16, 2011

    As a parent, uniforms were my best friend when my kids were in school. I woke them up about 15 minutes before we had to get out of the house because there were no decisions about what they were going to wear. I guess maybe it did not bother me because I also wore uniforms from K-12th grade.
    As a teacher (in a private school) I love seeing all the kids in a mass or assembly in their uniforms. They always look so nice.
     
  21. Aussiegirl

    Aussiegirl Habitué

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I have bigger battles to fight than to check skirt lengths. If the administration has consequences for being in violation of the uniform poilicy, AND backs the teachers up, then I guess I'd have to check lengths. I, personally, like the idea of polo or button down shirts with any color twill pants. I think it helps level the playing ground. Sure, some will add jewelry and accessories, but at least everyone looks neat. No more having to go after kids to tape up the holes in the butt of their jeans or other improper areas. The high school in the district has a fairly strict dress code and is finally enforcing it. At my school, the MS, however, the code is not enforced. It is going to be a rude awakening in August when many of my students face the music.
     
  22. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Jun 16, 2011

    I have told the girls I teach that I have absolutely no qualms giving a detention for uniform violations, and that I'll be more than happy to give detention to girls who happen to have male homeroom teachers for uniform violations.

    It doesn't get to that. I ask them to unroll their skirts, and warn them that they'll be in serious trouble if I happen to cross their paths and find they've been rolled back up.

    That's all it takes. I didn't give a single detention last year. I said I would do something, and the kids know I will. So they didn't roll the skirts back up.

    It's really not all that hard-- you make a promise and you keep it.
     
  23. kpa1b2

    kpa1b2 Aficionado

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    Jun 16, 2011

    My kiddos wear uniforms. The days that they don't they seem to forget that they are at school!

    It's also part of my evaluation. . .are the kids in uniform? So if they come in without a tie, belt or school shoes I let the parents know what their child needs. For repeat offenders, I send them to the office to call home or get the extra tie. (there NEVER any extra belts). For a while I had extra ties that came back to me. I had kids K-5 coming to me for ties!

    I have told my kids that I'm going to start charging them every time I tell them to tuck their shirt in or tie their shoes. Maybe someday I will.
     
  24. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    But Alice, you must know that it's certainly not always that easy. I can make the promise and follow through...and repeat the same procedure the following day with the same student. If just telling students to tuck in their shirts or unroll their skirts worked, well...then I guess it wouldn't be so hard. Just not the case in my school.
     
  25. gamerTeacher

    gamerTeacher Rookie

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    We're really harsh the first week of school (they get a write-up each time and if they get more than 2 in a day they have detention). It helps, but mainly we enforce it at teh begining of each period.

    We don't start class until everything is ready- which means shirts are tucked, skirts are down, and the classroom is clean (students stay in the class and the teachers come to them).

    When the bell rings, the teacher tells everyone to stand up, then does a quick visual check. The whole class waits for anyone who is in the wrong, then bow and start class. It sounds extremely formal and unnecessary, but it works really well and only takes a minute or two. It also helps get the students into "classroom mode" instead of "hallway mode," which is a big plus for the rowdier classes.

    Same for the end of the class. If it is hot, sometime the boys will take off their shirts (they have an undershirt on) and they have to put them back for the closing bow.

    The teachers that breeze through this routine are the same ones that speak over noisy classrooms, or let students regularly sleep in their classroom.

     
  26. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Jun 17, 2011

    To be honest, if the faculty works together, it frequently IS that easty. The problem is when you can leave my class with your skirt unrolled, roll it up in the hallway, and enter the room next door with it rolled up.

    If you got 9 detentions per day-- one per period-- for rolling up that skirt, I'm guessing most kids would get the point fairly quickly.

    When we opened our school in 1987, it took a lot of work and consistency to make it what it is today.

    I remember one day when there was an announcement: any male who wasn't clean shaven was to be sent to the office. Once there, they were asked to make a decision on the spot: either shave here and now, or take these withdrawl papers and call your parents, here and now.

    It hasn't been a problem since.
     
  27. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Men have to be cleanly shaven. Are you kidding me? Talk about arbitrary rule.
     
  28. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Jun 17, 2011

    STUDENTS have to be clean shaven.

    They know the rule when they enter the school. If it's a deal breaker, there are lots of other schools.

    Judging by the size of our waiting list, it's not a deal breaker for many.
     
  29. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    I'm just curious, what is the reason behind a rule like that?
     
  30. chemteach55

    chemteach55 Connoisseur

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    At my son's Catholic school not only did they have to be clean shaven but if their hair was not proper length, then they had a choice--check out and get it cut or the Dean of Students would do it for you. My son got caught one time in his 4 years and put off getting a hair cut until a Sunday and he ended up finding a salon open in WalMart and they butchered his hair. He never put it off again. They learn lessons from this that will serve them later in life. As a parent, I had no problems with any of this--his rights were not violated because he was under age and my husband and I were paying for everything so he had no rights. He knew the rules and if he chose to break them then he had to pay the consequences.
    BTW--at the school that I taught at last year, if a student came to school unshaven, they were given a cheap single blade razor and a very small amount of shaving cream which led to many nicks and cuts. Needless to say, most can to school clean shaven.
     
  31. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Yes, the situation you describe is a problem. But my little team works together checking the lines before entering the classroom and still...ugh, it's an everyday issue. So all I can tell you is that I am very firm with the school rules, including dress code, and it's still very much a battle. It's not at all as simple as promising to write-up a child and following through and it not happening again. Of course, you are more the welcome to threaten to kill your teachers at my school, which happened more than once this year and in graphic detail among many other insane infractions which were essentially accepted, and the idea of "withdrawl papers" just isn't part of the discussion afterwards...
     
  32. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Again I say, what is the purpose in that? Why is not cleanly shaven a bad thing?
     
  33. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Bob, I've never understood that either. I of course respect a private school's wishes to have cleanly shaven students, but I personally prefer not cleanly shaven. I remember I was out to eat with my husband and saw a cousin from a distance I hadn't seen in years. We didn't speak, but that cousin soon happened to talk to my stepdad and he mentioned he thought he saw me, but that I was with a "scruffy" man so he wasn't sure. Scruffy!? I thought he looked exceedingly handsome. So...different strokes, I suppose. :)
     
  34. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    My apologies.

    I left the computer-- my son arrived home from school and I had things to do other than a to z.

    And, no, I'm not going to play the game of "Can you justify that rule?"

    I'm an employee. Part of what I do is enforce school policies.

    Parents who don't like our school's policies are welcome to send their children elsewhere. Teachers who choose not to enforce those policies don't last long.

    Our current enrollment is over 2500, and we have literally thousands of kids trying to fill 700 open spots each year.

    So I'm not going to waste my time trying to justify anything to you.

    I'm a good fit for my school. I think we can both agree that you wouldn't be.

    Different strokes and all that.
     
  35. chemteach55

    chemteach55 Connoisseur

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    I have to agree with Alice because my son's school also has a tremendous waiting list and he was honored to attend the school but he also knew from Day 1 that he was a student of "school name" 24/7/365. My son would not leave the house unless he is clean shaven whether he is going to school, taking his girlfriend out, or going to the mall. He knew where he was going to school and he accepted the rules. High school students should be clean shaven and have their hair cut--they simply look better. I also would not have allowed my daughter's to date someone in high school that were not clean shaven and had a proper hair cut. I have high expectations for both my children and my students. My middle daughter had detention every Friday of her senior year because she refused to wear proper socks. She chose to break the rules and had to pay the consequences. I have always taught at a private school and spend less than a minute watching my students as they enter my classroom to make sure that they are in proper uniform. If they chose not to be in proper uniform, then I write a detention or whatever follows the school rules because I am hired to follow them whether I agree or not. My kids did not turn out too bad considering that they had strict uniform and personal grooming policies at the schools that they attended. I expected them to be held at a higher standard and that is why we spent almost $500,000 to send 3 children to the best private schools possible from PK-12th grade.
     
  36. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I'm not debating at all a private school's expectation for a shaven face. They may certainly require and enforce that.

    But, outside of a private school setting, that males look better clean-shaven is a matter of opinion. Also a matter of opinion on my part, it just bothers me (hurts me almost?) that you wouldn't allow your daughter to date someone who didn't shave daily because that indicated they were not up to your standards. I realize people are judged by the way they look, but sometimes that reality hurts me a little, especially when the "infraction" is something I personally find no fault with.
     
  37. LUCHopefulTeach

    LUCHopefulTeach Habitué

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    Jun 17, 2011

    :agreed: :thumb:
     
  38. msmullenjr

    msmullenjr Devotee

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    Jun 17, 2011

    Agrered, and I personally don't think everyone looks better clean shaven. Personal opinion.
     
  39. chemteach55

    chemteach55 Connoisseur

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    I would not allow that while my daughter's were in high school. My 23 year old's 24 year old boyfriend is not clean shaven but he was when he attended his private high school. My other daughter who is 20 dates a marine so they dictate his hair length and whether he is clean shaven or not. I am just saying that it is ok to dictate how a high school student looks or dresses, I am certainly not talking about adults. I guess I just live in a very conservative area because both public and private schools in the parish I live in require students to wear proper uniforms and be clean shaven as well as have a proper hair cut. I see no problem with this.
     
  40. smurfette

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    Jun 17, 2011

    I think if the community of a public school is so adamantly against having uniforms, then the policy should be revisited. I have never gone to a uniform school, and I am so glad. I worked in a uniform school, and it didn't do one bit to stop teasing, bullying, or kids noticing differences in wealth. It got depressing if I had to look at khaki, navy, and white all day (or whatever colors are chosen). As a teacher, I would rather focus on teaching than doing uniform inspections. As long as the clothing is decent and inoffensive, then it is fine by me.
     
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