Saying the Pledge of Allegiance

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Solon, Apr 7, 2014.

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  1. underthesun

    underthesun Rookie

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    May 11, 2014

    Forgive me, what does PIP stand for?
     
  2. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Performance Improvement Plan????
     
  3. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Luckily this is a forum where one can choose to ignore such rants. Students don't have that luxury.:(
     
  4. underthesun

    underthesun Rookie

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    :yeahthat:

    I was just thinking the same thing. Actually, the only anger that I've read in this forum seems to be coming from you, SF_Giants66. I was under the impression that everyone else had been wording their comments calmly, and simply telling you what of your statements offended them, rather than becoming angry.

    Again, I don't think that anyone here had a real issue with you telling students something along the lines of "When the pledge comes on, please either stand and recite the pledge, or remain seated and respectfully quiet." or even a "It is within your rights to not say the pledge, but I will not tolerate any disrespect during that time while your classmates are saying it."

    I can't speak for everyone here, obviously, but I only took an issue with the way in which you intended to "inform" students -- it sounded more as if you were openly sharing your hostility toward the pledge. And, again, I didn't even say the pledge in school, but if I had a teacher who seemed to have a personal vendetta against anyone saying the pledge, I'd be deeply upset.

    On top of that, I really can't understand your hostility toward the pledge in general. I never said it because I didn't like the assumption of the "under God" (And even though I don't agree with that assumption of an Abrahamic god, I am not offensively switching those letters around). I also wasn't a huge fan of the wording "one nation" considering, by definition, I'm not convinced the United States IS a nation, and not a multinational state. But those were small details, and I always recognized that the pledge was a GOOD message, emphasizing "liberty and justice for all." I just don't understand hostility toward that message.
     
  5. underthesun

    underthesun Rookie

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    May 11, 2014

    Oh, jeez, of course! I'm so sorry; I knew that! For some reason I was thinking it was something different (like an acronym for a verb) because of the "PIP you" part. It's very early here, still, so I'm using that as my excuse. xD

    Thanks for the clarification, though!
     
  6. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    It's funny you didn't take this mentality with how the pledge has changed in 1954 :)
     
  7. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    Note how I said I don't change it. If there's a later version (as there often is) or different translations (as there always are with older texts) I read ALL of them as is. I can't tell you how many versions of Beowulf there are. I read them all as they're printed. Look at A Clockwork Orange the British version has one more chapter than the original American version. Both are read as is by me. The pledge is no different to me. There are two versions. I don't change either one. Many people say the pre-1954 version and that's perfectly acceptable to me.

    ETA: literature is changed over time. Much of the Christian symbolism was added to Beowulf when it was first written down (many years after it was first told). We read the text as it's presented in their textbook and analyze where parts have been added and why. Experts will change translations when they feel something has been translated incorrectly. But the old translations don't poof and disappear. They are still extremely valuable to scholars.

    In my critical reading course we read a few different things that had different translations. We discussed how that changed things like the mood. Then we talked about which one was best in our opinions. It's no surprise that we didn't all agree. The point though is none of us called each other stupid for picking one over another.

    If your problem with the pledge was simply one line, then you would say the pledge and omit that line like many do who don't agree with it. You seem like you want to be purposefully confrontational.
     
  8. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    May 11, 2014

    I don't say the pledge because of the "liberty and justice for all" line; I don't think our country truly gives liberty and justice to all.

    I always tell my students that they don't need to say the pledge, but they must be quietly sitting or standing and must be respectful. I never explain why I do not say the pledge.
     
  9. MrsRed

    MrsRed Rookie

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    May 11, 2014

    :2up:
     
  10. SF_Giants66

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    I never said that is what I intended to do. Find where I said I was going to say all that to the students just because I felt that personally.
     
  11. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    I may be autistic, but I still know obvious sarcasm when I read it. Don't patronize me.
     
  12. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    It isn't sarcasm, SF. I truly want you to do this. You don't want to listen to any advice you get no matter how valid it is. You are going full force into a profession that doesn't fit your personality whatsoever. Your reason for going the course is that you have put too much time in and have changed too many times. Nothing you ever say has anything to do with the students.

    Based on your previous posts and your current position and believe it is your job to instruct students based on personal beliefs, I truly believe it is best for you to do what you said at your initial posting.

    I am well aware of the consequences you might have, but you might as well rip that Band-Aid off that hairy arm on the first day.
     
  13. Pi-R-Squared

    Pi-R-Squared Groupie

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    May 11, 2014

    Just keep in mind that you're going to school to become a MATH TEACHER! When you're hired to teach math, you're hired to TEACH MATH.... Any district won't hire you if you're perceived as a rabble-rouser. You can surely have your beliefs, dogmas, etc.... But the one who hires you may be the one who fires you, too....
     
  14. SF_Giants66

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    I said changing careers again is not an option. I want to teach though, and have lots of experience working with youth. I simply just don't really have people skills right now. I'm good at math though and came up with some presentations that my cooperating teacher used because she liked them better than the text book lessons.
     
  15. underthesun

    underthesun Rookie

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    Oh, I wasn't suggesting that was why people said the pledge. I only pointed out that line because I think it's a good representation of one ideal of our country. Regardless of whether or not the country TRULY gives liberty and justice to all, I'd say that most 'Americans' are unified by the common ideal of giving liberty and justice for all.
     
  16. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    May 11, 2014

    Please remember this:

    The school you may someday teach in was not built so that you could teach. It was built so that students could learn. What students need to learn is the curriculum adopted by that district/state and the life skills that students will need to be successful in life. Can those students be successful without knowing your personal beliefs? Yes, they can. Therefore, your personal beliefs have no place in the classroom.

    I'll share a short story. Around the time of the last presidential election, a few of my students were super interested in knowing who I was voting for. They would ask me every day, and every day I would tell them that my vote was my business (in a polite way, of course). They would push and push and push, always speculating and saying that they knew who I voted for because XYZ (which was always some ridiculous connection that they made). One student was convinced that I had voted for one particular candidate. His reasoning seemed to be that he didn't like me and he didn't like that candidate, therefore I must have voted for that candidate because there would have been no way that I, someone whom he disliked so very much, could have supported the candidate that he preferred. Now, the candidate that the thought I supported was definitely NOT the candidate I supported. Anyone who knew me in real life would have laughed, like laughed until they passed out, if they had heard anyone suggest that I would have supported that candidate, because I was soooooo far on the other end of the political spectrum that it was really just a completely absurd notion. As a human being, this kid's speculations, which felt like accusations, about my preferred presidential candidate almost hurt. I wanted so much to clear things up because I hated the idea that anyone would think so poorly of me. As a teacher, though, it really was a non-issue. If my student knew my actual preferred presidential candidate and vote, would that make him a better student? Would he know my content better? Would he become a better person in life? The answers to all those questions was the same: nope. Therefore, it was absolutely unnecessary to that student's education for me to clarify the issue. To this day that student probably still thinks that I voted for that particular candidate. Who cares?

    OP, I encourage you to really think about what your role as a teacher will and should be. If you're going to use the classroom as your personal forum for expressing your personal beliefs, for undermining the parents of your students, or as a means of teaching your students that your beliefs are better than theirs, then I would suggest that you're using the classroom in the wrong way and that you will fail as a teacher. I hope that doesn't happen for you.
     
  17. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    May 11, 2014

    These are good points.

    I have talked to many anti-religion (specifically anti-Christianity) people who have not stepped foot in a Church in years or have one negative memory from being in a Church when they were like 7; and now, they have painted all aspects of Christianity as evil. Everyone that believes is "brainwashed" and all this other stuff. They make sweeping generalizations against Christians, but cannot tolerate sweeping generalizations being made about their group(s).

    For millions in this world, their faith in God or their religion brings them great strength, hope and guidance. Calling that stupid or calling a parent stupid for passing this tradition onto their child is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE.
     
  18. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    May 11, 2014

    According to your generalizations, the fact that my husband and I go to church with his mother every Sunday must mean we're self-haters, right? :lol: :rolleyes:
     
  19. eternalsaudade

    eternalsaudade Companion

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    I agree with this, and the rest of what Caesar said, 100%. SF_Giants, the tone of your posts is very negative, patronizing towards those who disagree with you, and most of all, focused entirely on you and what you believe. I teach in early childhood and I occasionally find myself disagreeing with with the parenting choices that my students' parents make. Is it my right to disagree? Absolutely. Is it my place to bring in my personal beliefs and attempt to "correct" the parents? Absolutely not. I can convey a message of love and acceptance for themselves and others to my students without undermining or insulting their parents or contradicting their personal views. Your students, and not your personal agenda, should always be the priority in the classroom.

    I do understand your viewpoint but I also think you are overgeneralizing and demonizing others in the process. Yes, I feel that there are a lot of issues with organized religion. Yes, I am very disappointed when parents use religion as a platform for teaching hate and intolerance. However, I also recognize that this does not encompass every single person who is religious, that being religious does not make one inherently stupid, and that suggesting anyone who doesn't share my views is stupid is a very offensive thing to do.

    As many have suggested, I think you should focus on teaching your future students the content and veer away from discussing your personal beliefs, it is simply not the right forum to do so. :2cents:
     
  20. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    May 11, 2014

    Quite possibly.
     
  21. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    So, you have not taken to heart, or even considered some of the other views expressed in this thread? I feel sorry for you. I imagine that you aren't very happy.
     
  22. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    I said it was possible. More facetiously though.
     
  23. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    Wow, what a thread. I have only glanced through the posts, and haven't read them in their entirety.

    One thing I have noticed, or so it seems, lead me to ask this question: what is with the generalized lumping of various populations?? There are gay Christians, so not every Christian hates gays. There are the hell-fire-and brimstone churches and then there are the ones where all they do is sing and dance and talk about love, so not all of them are about "brainwashing," if you will. The bible itself does condemn homosexuality, but also so many other things including gossip (which is a hell-destined sin according to the Bible) which seems to go under the radar of most people in general, including the religious folks who engage in it. SF, you stated you like Jews, but condemnation of homosexuality also exists in Leviticus.

    Bottom line: Christianity no more forbids homosexuality than Judaism does. There are Jews who are against homosexuality and there are Christians who are against it. There are Christians who do not care and Jews who do not care.

    I can't stand it when people ascribe attributes to entire populations. For example, I'm agnostic (I wouldn't say atheist because I don't know if there is a God and honestly don't care--so vehement opposition or declaration of a position on the issue isn't a priority for me) and where I stand on all social issues is very, very right of center. I'm probably more conservative than a Baptist minister, but obviously my reasoning has nothing to do with religious or spiritual reasons or feelings--but logic, science, and my own views developed by my experiences. But when people start equating things with something else, it is annoying at best and dangerous at worst--for example, all Christians hate gays (not true) or all pro-lifers are Christians (definitely, NOT true). And to boot, personally, I have never met a Christian who was hateful or spewed anti-anything at me.

    One of things you MUST realize as a teacher is lumping people into misperceived homogenous (or not so) groups is uninformed at best and detrimental to your students at worst.

    I hope you are in the right profession.
     
  24. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    This.
     
  25. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    You don't seem like a very nice person.

    If this is a manifestation of your autism, then you need to spend more time on social skills before you interact with children. If this is the way you come off to people, they're not going to accept any information from you, be it math, the reasons all Christians are evil or the fact that the sun is made of blue cheese. I would not allow my child to be in your classroom based on the posts I've read of yours on this forum. You need to work on leaving your own issues outside of the classroom.
     
  26. SF_Giants66

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    I have no issues interacting with children. I have actually not come across a child that didn't like me in quite a long time. It is adults that hate me.
     
  27. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    That is something you will need to work on with your therapist. As others have said, relationships with adults are extremely important in teaching.
     
  28. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    I have to assume you come across significantly different in the classroom than you do online then, but regardless... you gotta impress adults if you want a job, and to put it bluntly, there's not a teacher in this topic that would ever consider you for a job as a McDonald's fry cook, let alone as a teacher. I know that's something you're working on, and for your sake, I hope you improve in that regard. Please keep in mind that written communication, in particular, requires nuance that is often difficult for people with autism. As a general rule, sarcasm and humor will not come across in type unless it is very obvious, or people know you.
     
  29. SF_Giants66

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    My psychologist says I don't have that natural game face that people wear when at work or meeting new people, and I generally gravitate to correcting people's inaccuracies and going into overwhelming details about topics.


    As far as kids go, I have a list of kids that want me as their counselor for camp this summer, and was told by a couple friends that their kids found me to be their favorite babysitter, and generally ignored the others they had in the past. I often get told more or less that there is that extra element that kids like about me that most other adults don't have. What that us exactly, I don't know as many other adults can be cool around kids too.

    I think it could be that authentically I'm more of a child trapped in an adults body, but due to my acting and performing experience, I can be an adult with proper rehearsal and planning, but I can make friends with kids when I don't even try.
     
  30. Bunnie

    Bunnie Devotee

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    SF Giants, I read parts of this thread and I'm pretty sure many have said or stated some important things already.

    Your beliefs need to be kept to yourself. In no way shape or form should you decide to give the students a lesson on their rights about reciting the pledge because YOU don't believe in it. You are not an American history teacher. You can't justify it or create a teachable moment just because you think should let them know their rights, you are a math teacher.

    Now if a students asks you or brings it up, still you should not explain your beliefs. They don't need to know you that personally. Discussing religious or political beliefs are not necessary for you to teach math.

    Children might like you but if adults generally don't how do you expect to teach? You need to work with other teachers and your admin. Not to mention parent contact.

    If you feel you need to make a point by stating your personal beliefs loud and proud you are in the wrong profession.
     
  31. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Adults do the hiring, evaluation and make decisions about whether to retain teachers...adult parents need to be kept abreast of student progress, communicated with, worked with.....your prospects aren't looking too good.:2cents:
     
  32. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    What ages are the kids in the summer camp and that you have babysat for? How do those ages compare to the age students you plan to teach?
     
  33. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    The boys I watched were 8 and 10, and the boys at camp were 6th graders. I'd like to teach 7th or 8th grade.
     
  34. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    How much of your general attitude influenced your interactions with these impressionable youths?
     
  35. SF_Giants66

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    I don't really know what a general attitude is for me. My frustration and meltdowns can go from 0 to 60 in a matter of seconds. I take SSRIs for mood stabilization.


    I think they like that I enjoy playing with them and being a kid too when it is the right time for it. I also enjoy being with them more than adults. I got bumped to the adults table for breakfast a couple times last summer at camp and my heart felt broken over it. We rotate in and out counselors needed for certain tasks here and there.
     
  36. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    So your interactions with the kids were colored that the fact that you had very little adult responsibilities with them? You may find it very different when you're responsible for evaluating them, enforcing school/class rules, doling out consequences, etc.
     
  37. SF_Giants66

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    Not exactly. I told a kid acting up at bed time I was gonna send him to the director if it continued. It was after I was laughing under my blanket so they couldn't see or hear though.

    I've talked firmly to some kids throwing sand around near the lake, and other things.

    So, I'm not a big punisher or anything, but I don't encourage bad behavior.
     
  38. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Excellent point.

    Having served as a substitute and regular teacher, I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between the two. Of course I enforced the school and class rules when I subbed (as well as a couple of my own, if I felt it was necessary), but I could also have more fun with the kids as a sub than a regular teacher because we were only together for 1-2 days most of the time.

    When I had a class of my own, I couldn't joke around or "cut up" with the kids nearly as much because that made it more difficult to get them back on task the next day when we didn't have extra time to kid around.

    So I learned very quickly there was a big difference in what I could and could not do in the classroom as a regular teacher.

    Did any of these kids talk back to you or challenge your authority? If so, how did you handle that? If not, how will you handle it in your classroom when it happens? (and, sooner or later, it WILL happen).
     
  39. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Like I said. Analyzing the scene and getting into character.
     
  40. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    And that is what concerns most of us responding in this thread. When it comes to having your views or beliefs challenged, the character you display seems to be one of hostile confrontation.

    Since you've made no attempt to change or even control that tendency during this discussion, it raises serious questions about your ability to do so in the classroom when the challenge is live and to your face. :dunno:
     
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