Results of Global Study on School Choice

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Tyler B., Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Nov 12, 2017

    Sorry. The US guarantees the right to FAPE for everyone. It's not a reality show singing contest where the judges eliminate contestants. Nor should education be run that way.
     
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  2. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Agreed. I agree with Tyler that vouchers have shown very little success and effect in the communities that need stronger education, and reduce needed resource for public schools. However, I'm going to disagree with Tyler and agree with Belch that culture really is a part of the issue and it's not just poverty, though poverty plays a HUGE factor. It might sound bad, but it's true in my opinion, that the culture of some communities causes them to either not trust the public education system, not value it, or not take advantage of it. Poverty often produces a set of ills but it's often culture that dictates the response to poverty and how different people deal with it.

    More money is necessary to solve the problem but it has to be used effectively. Sometimes money is raised but it goes towards things that aren't necessarily effective like technology or some other thing that is supposed to be the magic pill that solves the problems of poverty and the culture associated with it in the US. Just throwing money at the problem isn't likely to fix anything while that culture still exists and students exist within it.

    I was intrigued with something I read somewhere about a private school that was only for impoverished communities, and that was free for these students. Just being a "private" school doesn't mean anything, and results of private schools are often skewed by the fact that they can heavily edit their school's attending students at will. That's not what was intriguing about this school. I thought it was intriguing that it was ONLY for these students, that it was completely free for these students, and that students LIVED there. In fact their stated purpose was to eliminate the inequalities that arise from difficult and varied home-lives by completely housing, feeding, and clothing the students at their school.

    It was essentially a boarding school, but free and only for students who need it. This in my opinion would effectively remove students from the culture of poverty that often stunts academic success and places them in a setting where the culture can be more effectively shaped by the teaching professionals to provide kids with the best possible learning environment and ensure all their needs are met.

    I just thought it was an intriguing idea and would like to see some government funded public schools take this route for districts that really need it.
     
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  3. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Yes, I've come to realize after participating on this forum that teachers in the U.S.A. are incapable of removing even the most violent students from your schools in order to protect the student body and faculty, so of course you cannot "eliminate contestants".

    As to whether education should be run that way, I'm getting the idea that some parents might disagree with you. Suffice to say that I certainly do.

    I guess that thanks to your laws, there is a public option open for the most incorrigible students, just as there should be an option for those who want to study without fear of bodily harm.

    This is why I support vouchers.
     
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  4. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I understand when classes are too large in some places. I also understand you don't like TFA from your comments.

    I don't disagree that there are kids who need more resources, but there are reasons beyond "not enough money" that they don't have them which is why more money won't work. when a school system is spending twice as much as other districts and the students still don't have the resources, money isn't the problem. That is what you see in many impoverished districts. It isn't lack of money. It is lack of those in charge in the district failing to allocate the money properly. No money in the world is going to fix that problem.

    I won't be responding to you about this topic anymore. You have made it much too personal by attacking who I am and inserting your assumptions about what I know and understand. It isn't worth my time to discuss the issue anymore when you do such things. You even insulted others to try to backhandedly insult me in a prior post.
     
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  5. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    So poverty doesn't cause learning problems? I'm guessing you think the earth is flat, too.

    Let's do what the Chinese do on PISA test, prevent their poor kids from taking it.
     
  6. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Tyler, I'm generally with you on school choice, TfA, etc. We're going to come to the same general conclusions, most likely. Where I disagree is that bifurcated, all-or-nothing attitude toward poverty & education. Educational achievement is so very clearly the result of so many things - poverty being one of them, but not the most determinant (Sadly, that's actually IQ, which we can't do much about). So, from a professional perspective, we really need to stop having this argument where we look for the singular cause of poor achievement above all others.

    The issue of money is not easy, unless you make it so. For example, I've often said that we'd fix our educational problems (some at least) virtually overnight if we paid teachers $100,000 in Kansas, then adjust up for cost of living in other parts of the country. We'd attract only the best and brightest, and competition would be so high for those positions that performance would invariably go up. Of course, this wouldn't fix everything though as even the best teachers can't fix all educational problems with all kids, because education is complex.

    Likewise, try that same thought experiment with poverty: Do you think all educational issues would disappear if we removed poverty?

    Sure, there are plenty more things we could buy with more money. a2z's point, though, is that there are things we can do even without more money, and as educators we should do them. We don't need more money to do better reading assessments with kids in second grade classrooms. We don't need more money to upgrade to a step-wise time out procedure from a more simplistic one.

    Again, this returns to an all-or-nothing way of thinking. More money isn't always needed, but sure - it can help. Can't we both be right?
     
  7. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Your example supports the argument that teachers are, in part, at the root of the failure to adequately educate students in the US. I agree with this completely. Because teaching not only requires a complete understanding of the content, it requires understanding psychology, and a personality that is suited to the profession. Any leg of that stool that is weak will diminish the ability of the person to be the most effective.

    I do think it would be decades before all schools would be filled with quality teachers across the board and the public would not stand for current teachers being paid for the skills they may or may not have plus the pension that goes along with it (in some districts). Since we can't determine who is effective now, I don't see the states or the US moving in a direction for much higher pay.
     
  8. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I went from teaching at one of our state's poorest schools to one of the richest. When at the first school, we had fund raisers throughout the year and the parents were excited that we gathered nearly $5,000 with our carnival, candy sale, and so forth. At my new school, we had an auction that pulled in nearly $48,000 in the first month of school. The educational resources at the second school were world class.

    Part of the reason Finland stays on the top of the educational scoring game is their 3% poverty rate while we have a 23% child poverty rate.

    Eded, you are right. Money isn't the only solution to lower scores in high poverty schools, but iit's part of it. This thread started based on a report about what wasn't working for poor schools. Do you think it's a good idea to push for strategies that actually cause harm to low income communities?
     
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  9. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Much of this is determined by whether the parents have educated the children for the school.

    In many cases public school is just a framework and "lesson plan" so to speak. Public schools rely on parents to do a large amount of the teaching. That is why students whose parents can and do teach them are successful and students who do not have that support are rarely successful. This indicates that schools are not all that successful in educating students. It is a system problem, not necessarily a specific teacher problem.
     
  10. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Some teachers may be a PART of the problem. But teachers in general are not at the root of failure for educating students in the US. Ed was only giving options for what some teachers might do to improve education at their particular classrooms and in my opinion, those changes wouldn't have much effect overall. But they are things that COULD be done and teachers are always looking for things that COULD be done to improve education and the lives of their students.

    For perspective lets look at other things that are at the root of failure of education in the US that have much greater weight:
    • poverty
    • drugs
    • crime
    • racism
    • intolerance
    • reduction of taxation that would benefit public schools
    • the failure of schools to remove students who are violent or in a place where they are affecting the learning of others to places that could actually help them (yes Belch, I agree with you that this is a problem, but the solution isn't simple without violating some of our country's closely held principles regarding education)
    • the pressure to pass every student on despite their level of learning by administrators, parents, and politicians
    • devaluation of the professionalism of teachers
    • an sue-happy society
    • the onslaught of social media presence in every aspect of student lives
    • etc. the list goes on and on.
    I just feel the way you phrased your statement: "teachers are, in part, at the root of the failure to adequately educate students in the US" was misleading. I know you qualified it with "in part" but if you really think about it, the number of teachers that are not quality teachers is probably exceedingly small in the grand scheme of things, and have almost negligible effect when considering the other concerns.
     
  11. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Yes. We have problems in the US with what you say. However in most schools the population of students who might be a danger to others is extremely small, probably less than 1 percent. It would be kind of foolish for vouchers to be put forth as a solution because it is unlikely that the surrounding schools could support the other 99% of the population that wants to escape these few students. They'd have to build new schools and such which would be incredibly expensive. A more sane solution would be to build and administer special smaller schools (with specialists) or educational options particularly for these students so they can be removed from the public setting, while the rest of the population can learn in a safe environment.
     
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  12. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Nope. EdEd specifically addressed the notion that higher pay would bring higher performing teachers. He did say it wouldn't fix all problems.

    I guess I have to ask why the taxpayers should be paying teachers more if it won't bring about improvement in the performance.
     
  13. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Ah, I guess I missed that part of his post. I disagree with the sentiment that simply paying teachers more would fix much of what's wrong with the current state of U.S. education. I DO think it would stem the flow of good teachers migrating out of education because of teacher devaluation and low pay which certainly isn't helping the current problems any however.
     
  14. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Aren't they all good? I thought that was your argument or did I misunderstand?
     
  15. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    At present time, I think the majority of teachers are good (or want to be good) teachers. The profession naturally attracts those that care about students and are hard working. However as devaluing of teachers increases, the more experienced teachers who are used to a certain level of respect are leaving the profession. They are continuously replaced by newer teachers who again, care about students but are less experienced, but who will gain experience with time, but as the devaluation continues, they too will leave. Teaching becomes an accelerating revolving door until it gets to the point where people are no longer staying long enough in the profession to gain expertise.

    I don't think we are there yet, but we are making strides in this direction.
     
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  16. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Wait, are you saying that I read to my own children, gave them music lessons, hauled them to athletic events because the school told me to do that?

    I agree that schools need to be more successful at teaching poor kids. I also agree that it's not a matter of teacher quality, although we should all look to raise the bar higher.

    The USA is already world class at teaching our middle and high income students. To work on educating impoverished children, the USA should make it a priority to address problems like fully funding public schools, providing small class sizes and additional staff development, hiring appropriate support staff, purchasing top notch instructional resources, and reducing segregation.
     
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  17. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    This study has never been done in a choice-only scenario as I proposed in theory.
     
  18. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 13, 2017

    Broad response here: I think we're still focused on a past-oriented blame game of "who caused the problem." I think that can be helpful, but what's even more helpful is simply asking the question, "What can I do given the resources I have?" If we focus on our opportunity to fix problems rather than our responsibility for having caused them, a lot of this back and forth goes away and we're left with a more focused attitude toward the situation. We're here now, right at this point in time. Moving forward, what can each of us do to increase educational outcomes? It's as if we see the very asking of this question as conceding some artificially created debate.
     
  19. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Specific response to teacher quality: Part of the problem with reaching consensus is that we disagree on what a teacher's responsibility is. To demonstrate, here's an analogy:

    Heart health can be approached both from a preventive perspective (e.g., encouraging healthy eating) and an intervention perspective (e.g., heart surgery). Let's say a patient eats poorly throughout life, and let's say for sake of argument that it's because the patient comes from a low-wealth background and limited access to healthy food.

    Now, let's say the patient has a heart attack and the heart surgeon performs surgery, but doesn't use the best techniques in the field. The patient dies, but would not have if a different, more effective surgeon had performed the operation.

    In the situation above, it's hard to argue that the surgeon caused the patient to have heart problems, but it could be argued that the surgeon is responsible for the result because it's the surgeons's job to use the most effective techniques available.

    In education, it's really, really tough to make a case that bad teachers are systemically causing low achievement with poor students. However, I don't think that's the case that's being made by most knowledgeable folks. I think they're saying that teachers are heart surgeons, responsible for cleaning up someone else's mess, but responsible nonetheless.

    There are clear implications when it comes to accountability - we shouldn't hold heart surgeons accountable for the incidence of heart disease, but we should hold them accountable for using the best strategies we have available when attempting to fix the problem. We could either assess/evaluate them by process/input in which we measure the degree to which they use effective strategies, or we could compare them with other surgeons who have the same inputs (patient type, equipment available, etc.).

    Some of this may seem obvious, but here's a major point of contention I see some folks argue from the "poverty is to blame" side of the debate: That teachers shouldn't have to deal with the effects of poverty in the first place - that students should come to the classroom prepared to learn, and if not it's not the responsibility of the teacher to address that preparation gap. In other words, if a student comes to school from an impoverished background, nothing else matters. Like the heart surgeon analogy, I think those on the "teacher accountability" side of the debate would argue that being effective even in the condition of adverse inputs is part of the job - a core responsibility (of course with the caveat that when we assess teachers we take these inputs into account).
     
  20. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    We're in agreement here - I don't support school choice, and the demographic differences between Finland and the US are more likely the explanatory variables in performance difference.

    The challenge is that money is, at best, only a mediating variable - money creates more opportunities, but by itself it doesn't do much. So, in your PTA example above, I'd challenge you to take your example a step further and make an argument about how that money translated into better achievement results for those students.
     
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  21. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    My issue with the quality argument is that it often defaults back to "teachers are working as hard as they can." That frankly isn't relevant to the discussion.

    Here's another analogy:

    A construction worker's job is to hammer in a nail and he does so with all his might for an entire 10 hour day. He works harder than anyone could expect for the task at hand. At the end of the day the nail on which he started is still not set in the wood. It turns out that all day through all that work he was not hitting the nail at all. He missed the head every time. All he has to show for his work is a beat up piece of wood. He failed at his job.

    All that matters is what is happening to our kids. We can blame whomever we'd like, blame any conditions we like, absolve ourselves of responsibility all we like - none of that matters. Too many kids, and schools, are failing and shame on anyone who isn't willing to admit it.
     
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  22. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I can't draw a straight line from our PTA money to higher achievement. However, in my present school, I have unlimited field trip funds (just for my class), a lab of 30 MacBooks in my class, a PTA budget of $4,000 for supplies and 16 parent volunteers on a weekly basis - including a heart surgeon, the head of psychiatry at the medial school, two university professors, and a slather of moms with postgraduate degrees. These people are eager to do anything to enrich my class.

    Teachers back at my low SES school are likely to have no room parents, even for parties, and a single field trip per grade level. Those teachers are also likely to have meetings nearly every day of the week for IEPs, PBIS, and other programs someone upstairs decided should be implemented to raise scores.

    You tell me if money is translating to better achievement. Every single student in my classes the last two years (except 2 IEP students) exceeded the state standards. At the poor school, I would have only 2 or 3 students exceed standards. I'm the same teacher.

    And Rockguykev, like all teachers, I can't tolerate incompetent staff members, although I rarely encounter people like this. I'm not absolving teachers of their duty to educate their students. I agree that all that matters is what's happening to our kids, and I applaud your passionate devotion to helping kids learn. However, you are wrong if you think poor kids can keep up with the rich without additional resources. I think that we should search for innovations that will allow poor kids to catch up, but choice doesn't work. That's proven.
     
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  23. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    While there is something to be said for making the best of a bad situation, there is also something to be said for determining the root cause of a problem (even if it seems like the blame game to some), because only then can we enact effective solutions that address the cause and not just the symptoms.

    In Ed's analogy this would mean creating initiatives to promote heart healthy culture among all consumers, and engage food providers and media towards this goal. While the heart surgeon can attempt to save as many lives as they can, if the culture of eating poorly doesn't change, they are likely to see increases in deaths from heart disease even if they are the very best at their job.

    Teachers often focus on only what they can do in the classroom and that is their primary wheelhouse, so it makes sense to want to ignore everything outside of it. But they sometimes forget that their influence often extends outside of the classroom. Teachers can often take leadership positions, in their school sites and in their unions to effect real change in schools, districts, or even the federal education system. Even simply participating as U.S. citizens voting on bills, teachers can make a change, and share their perspectives with other citizens to identify root issues and reasonable solutions as educational professionals. So I think it is useful to "play the blame game" in the long run, even if it might not affect anything immediately. At the very least, an awareness is built about what the issues are so that action can be taken when the opportunity arises.
     
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  24. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    One tier/level of my multi-level school is failing. We receive a lot of extra funding from a large grant. We are well-funded. Our scores have improved a lot over the past year, but we could still do a lot better.

    Our teachers are very highly trained and highly skilled. I believe that most of our professional and licensed teachers are very effective. I believe that there are a lot of factors outside of school that contribute to our failing scores; I won't get into all of them here.

    One big thing that I think contributes to our failing scores, or at least does not contribute as much to our goal of passing, is that we have numerous teacher vacancy positions staffed by unqualified and underqualified long-term subs. We also have a number of TFA teachers on campus. While I believe that the hearts of these folks are in the right place, their skill sets leave a lot to be desired. It's hard to get our school's math scores up when fully half of the math classes are staffed with long-term subs who may or may not know math. You might wonder why that happens, and I'd tell you that it's for a number of reasons: salaries, reputation, stress, work-life balance, bell schedule (seriously), admin, etc. The unfortunate truth is that seasoned teachers often seek "cushier" gigs at "easier" schools. The schools with many open positions are the rougher schools with rougher student populations and rougher reputations. When there are numerous open positions and very few applicants, what choice does the school have but to staff open positions with just about any warm body who expresses even a cursory interest? This happens at many schools like mine. I'd go so far as to say that it's the norm at schools like mine. As a parent, I certainly wouldn't want my child "taught" by teachers who aren't professionally trained and licensed teachers.

    The whole system is a broken mess, one which I believe was intentionally caused by some very powerful people with deep pockets. If we have any chance of fixing the system, I think that we need to focus on failing schools and build them up with the resources necessary to level the educational playing field. This means money, yes, but money well spent. This means hefty longevity incentives to encourage successful, seasoned teachers to stick around. This means severely reducing programs that allow non-teachers into the classroom as lead teachers (perhaps they can work as instructional aides or student mentors or something). It probably means a lot of other things as well.
     
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  25. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Wow! Powerfully written! I feel guilty teaching in my cushy school. Thank you for your service.
     
  26. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Don't feel guilty. Each teacher needs to find their own groove, but those grooves can be anywhere.

    I don't fault teachers for leaving failing schools. Not at all. These schools present very challenging work environments, and it's easy to burn out. I've said before that working in a rough school for one year is like working at a "regular" school for like 10. I don't feel like I'm exaggerating that at all, lol.

    I did my student teaching at a rural county school in the Midwest, and I taught college courses as an associate instructor during my graduate studies, but most of my teaching career has been in rough, urban schools. I love my job and I can't imagine doing anything else, but I've even felt the burn-out. Heck, I decided to switch into a specialist position because the burn-out was so bad at one point. For someone who doesn't truly, honestly, absolutely love the kinds of students you work with at these rough schools, such a setting is the wrong setting. You have to be in it 100% for it to work, for both you and your students. There's no shame in acknowledging that it's not the right setting for you.
     
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  27. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 13, 2017

    There’s definitely a difference between working as hard as you can, and being as effective as you can be - effort vs skill. Moreover, I think there is a difference between doing one’s personal best and meeting some kind of objective criteria of effectiveness. A teacher with little skill that is “doing his/her best” and “working hard” is not a teacher that should be permitted to practice.

    That being said, there are no great data on teacher effectiveness that are objective and span across all states, so it’s hard to any one person to make a sweeping generalization about the percentage of teachers who are effective. My personal experience is that a small minority of teachers are truly terrible, a small minority truly amazing, with most being somewhere in between. I’ve also found, again in my own experience (across probably 25 schools and 5 states), that there is a decent lag between “best practice” and what actually happens in the classroom, even with “good” teachers. Maybe it’s just that I’ve been relatively younger and had the benefit of having gone to a good school more recently, and been provided with more advanced knowledge about certain things (school psychology).

    That said, clearly there are people here that have had different experiences, and have found that most teachers they know are highly effective. That does, of course, beg the question as to how do each of us really know who is effective and who is not - for example, does an ineffective teacher know that s/he is ineffective? Do other teachers really get a chance to observe other teachers in action often? Are we confusing our personal assessments of our colleagues’ hearts and effort with their skill level?

    I’m getting into the weeds a bit here, but the point is that a lot of these questions about quality aren’t immediately answerable from a macro perspective, so it often makes little sense spending tons of time trying to theoretically isolate certain variables at the exclusion of others.
     
  28. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 13, 2017

    Your line about “being the same teacher” but having very different results is really a great one, and I think is a great anecdote of how non-teacher variables are so important. I might say, though, that it’s also possible that your skills or strategies may be more effective with one group compared with another. For example, you’ve often vocally advocated against skill groups (e.g., guided reading groups based on skill deficits). Maybe your whole class/heterogeneous grouping strategy is more effective in higher wealth schools because there is less diversity of skill need? I don’t mean to take away from your very valid point, though, that context matters.

    In terms of money and resources (e.g., parent volunteers), I guess I’d continue my challenge to you as you move forward in your career to think more deeply about what those resource sets offer you. I don’t say that to question that resources matter, but to say that we should really understand the “mechanisms of action” in those resources so we can become more efficient in cultivating those resources and deploying them effectively.
     
  29. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Fully true. Since you quoted me, I’d say that I did begin my statement by saying that it certainly can be helpful to dig down to the root of the problem. In reality, most of us probably spend very little of our actual work days addressing broad issues like poverty or general US teacher quality, so when we get a chance to talk about it on a forum, it’s helpful and valuable for us to be able to actually talk about these things that matter, but are often out of our control.
     
  30. AlwaysAttend

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    Nov 13, 2017

    Many schools in NJ recieved over 20,000 and are still considered “underfunded”

    Is the school St. Benedicts Prep? It’s not completely free though they do amazing work http://www.sbp.org/news/60minutes
     
  31. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Sadly, this would lead to many relatives getting jobs, not simply the best and brightest. Only way to actually achieve that is by limiting who is capable of becoming a teacher. If there are only so many seats available in colleges, the herd would be thinned
     
  32. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Over twenty years ago, I worked at a chronically underperforming school in San Francisco that was under court order (consent decree) to improve student achievement. More than a million dollars was spent on renovating the school. The "academic elementary school" boasted every conceivable intervention program, small class size, a full complement of ancillary staff, model after-school programs, parent training and all the latest curriculum materials a teacher could wish for (not to mention many PD release days that they did not wish for!)

    In 2017 the school ranked worse than 98% of elementary schools in California.
     
  33. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    What dollar amount per pupil is enough Tyler?
     
  34. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    You’ve solved it! We will take poor children away from their families upon birth and give them to rich people!

    How do I nominate you for a Nobel Award?
     
  35. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    It might have been. I don't recall specifically. I think I saw it as an ad in NYT magazine.
     
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  36. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    So what are you saying? Since you found an example of an apparently well-funded school unable to produce high test scores, we should privatize low achieving schools in the name of choice? I just did a check of elementary school rankings in SF and the lowest are charters. Maybe we found that other 2%.
     
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  37. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I developed my grouping strategies in low income schools. They also work well with students in high income schools.
     
  38. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Is this a super secret grouping method or are you sharing?
     
  39. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I do not believe that hefty incentives in terms of money will make seasoned teachers stick around and those that do will not necessarily continue to be effective. Money can only temporarily replace staff, but when the real conditions that caused the staff to leave does not change, even highly paid staff will not stick around. If they do they will be burnt out and getting a large sum of money for ineffectiveness.
     
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  40. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Nov 14, 2017

    Let's assume that you are correct. Don't schools in the states receive a large percentage of their funding from local real estate taxes, thus creating financial inequities between districts?

    One could look at that and view "financial inequities" as being a problem for schools to overcome, but you cannot. You see, because those taxes are paid for by the residents, that is taking money away from them in order to help fund the schools, thus removing money that would otherwise remain in the pockets of those residents making them richer.

    You might be correct in saying that poverty causes leaning problems, however because you have a situation where you really can't say whether the chicken or the egg came first (does poverty create learning problems or do learning problems create poverty?), there are far too many variables to say with any degree of certainty whether it is one way or the other.

    I will say that it seems fairly obvious to me that if there are learning problems, then that's going to lead to lower incomes. At least a lot more obvious than saying that learning problems are caused by lower incomes.

    At the end of the day, your idea is that the more you tax residents of lower income neighborhoods to pay for the education of their children, the more educational problems they will have.

    and no, I don't think the earth is flat. I saw a map once, so I know that it is a rectangle.
     
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