Discussion in 'General Education' started by Major, Sep 29, 2009.
Sep 29, 2009
I wish every kid could see this.........
I've seen it before, and always been touched by it.
I loved Red Skelton, with Clem Kadiddlehopper!
"Notice that Red starts his talk out referencing a "teacher" he had who taught this. Hmmm. Today, a teacher is more likely to be a communist, socialist, secular humanist, atheist, or homosexual than a God-fearing, Jesus-saved, America-loving Patriot. My, how low our culture has sunk! BTW, Senator McCarthy is an American hero for standing up against the communist enemy within. The left destroyed McCarthy and the anti-communist movement and now we have the obamessiah - connect the dots!"
Wow. That's an awesome comment on a video.
So glad that I am socialist, secular-humanist, neo-Christian Patriotic Canadian.
I love the Pledge of Allegiance....... It is very important to me...... and hopefully to a few more in this forum.
To me its indoctrination in the Christian faith, pure and simple and has no place in a secular world - the same as the Lord's Prayer has no place in the classroom.
This smells an awful lot like the beginning of a earlier post from last week, but while we may not always agree Canadian Gal, I strongly agree here. I've held off on flat out saying this before, but there are a number of people on this board who seem to strongly push against any anti-religious commentary.
Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but I strongly oppose the constant attempts by groups nationwide to infuse religion into the public schools. I am not religious. I do not believe in God. Saying the Lord's prayer will not make me feel better because I don't even know it, nor believe it to be meaningful in any way.
Many of my students are also not religious (some come from atheist households according to their parents) And so while I *DO* say the pledge each morning, I say the original version... I leave out the "added" words.
I don't want to get into another somewhat heated discussion as before, so I won't go further. But love of country and patriotism do NOT have to go hand in hand with religion.
I have no problem with the under God part of the Pledge of Allegiance.
My greater issue is that it's basically an imposed loyalty oath.
Well that too. At the end of the day, its still indoctrination in a set form of beliefs.
Now that indeed is an interesting point... my parents came from the Soviet Union (immigrated here in 1973), and disliked the pledge because they felt "like home". I'll admit, I've never really considered that part of it much until now, but it is an interesting issue.
But I suppose it holds water constitutionally as long as students aren't actually required/forced to say it...
Sep 30, 2009
THERE MUST be new mods or a new policy but, I am all for it.
Red Skelton was the best. Havent watched that video in awhile but he was an amazing talent with so much humor and pathos to share.
As a child I watched his show with awe.
Red Skelton was a tremendous talent....
Thanks for sharing... I clicked on the John Wayne one & that was really good as well!!!
It is hard not to feel hurt by people when they say unkind things about the Pledge or National Anthem. To me it is hurtful because I think of all of those who died, are still missing, & fought(and their families) to give you that right to say what you feel and all that can be said is, "I think it is wrong. I don't have to do it." Well, if you were any where else you'd be forced. So just say Thank You & skip these threads.
Off my soap box now.
I love it Major. I haven't seen it for so long, it was nice to watch it again. Very touching. I agree he was an amazing talent. They don't make them like that anymore.
That is so cute!
You know that there are people that have served/fought for this country that think the pledge is not a good thing.
That's not true.
I totally agree - my dad's a Vietnam Veteran who lost quite a friends during what so many people thought to be an unjustified war. My dad, one of the strongest people I know, still tears up when the anthem is sung. He instilled an incredibly strong and powerful love and loyalty for American in me. However, my father will also be the first to tell someone that part of what he fought and watched friends suffer and die for was to protect the right of people to criticize and even hate the flag and what it stands for. My entire life, I have been told that soldiers go into war knowing they aren't fighting for a particular set of values, they are fighting for the right of people to choose their set of values as individuals.
Being American, I have the right to vehemently disagree with people who oppose the pledge or the anthem. I don't, however, have the right to tell them they are wrong or disrespect their views. I don't have the right to impose my views on anyone for any reason. It's kind of odd when you think about it - the love and respect I have for this country keeps me from being able to completely go off on people who don't share my love and respect for America.
I don't object to the loyalty oath aspect of the Pledge, and would love to be able to encourage my children to say it without reservation. America has done some great things, wonderful things, for both its citizens and the world at large.
However, in the 1950's Congress saw fit to alienate those who do not believe in a deity. This isn't just a psychological sense of alienation, either. Try being a politician and avoiding saying "under God" during the Pledge. You'll shortly find yourself out of a job. This exclusion includes soldiers who may not believe in a deity, who have fought and possibly died for our country and have families.
It is not because of any disloyalty that I object to the Pledge as it stands; it is precisely because I am patriotic that I want it changed and am not really satisfied with "you don't have to say it". I want to be able to tell my kids that they should say it, that all the values it includes are ones they should support, and that all good Americans should support. And that is why I also will not skip these threads.
And, as HMM pointed out, it's simply not true that anywhere else you'd be forced. Most countries don't have pledges at all.
That those who "oppose" the Pledge (some do genuinely oppose it, some want it changed) do not love and respect America is an extremely poor assumption.
Amen!!!! My dad is a Vietnam Vet as well as many of my uncles. We have many vets in our family & even my gpa who didn't serve (he went to register), but was turned away because they needed him here to run the farms!
I have always had a respect for the flag & anthem as well, but when I went to the Vietnam wall & my mom found her friends that's when it really hit home....
They may not have pledges, but I'm sure there are words that are recited every day.
I do not agree that it is an indoctrination in the Christian faith. Religion in general, perhaps. But God is not just part of the Christian faith.
I have conflicting opinions regarding the the pledge. I recite it each day with my students, and I stress its importance and meaning and take it quite seriously with the students. As they mature they can come to their own conclusions, but I feel it's my responsibility to teach it and observe it. I know many would disagree because perhaps we should just leave it alone until they can truly understand it, think independently, and then form an opinion, but the truth is, for better or worse, I was raised with the pledge and I like providing students the foundation from which to build upon or move from. I don't know if that makes any sense written...it's perfectly logical in my head though.
The conflict is that I understand the concern about children pledging allegiance to a country they didn't ask to be born in and didn't ask to live in, as that's an argument I've hard, on top of the fact that in my perfect world, we would think beyond our country's borders and pledge allegiance to humankind. What a dreamer I am, I know.
ETA: Oh, and of course another conflict is the fact that not only children believe there is a God.
Not really germane to this thread but I wonder if I ever ran across either of your dads in 'Nam...
That was such a long time ago...... and yet on occasions it seems like just yesterday........
I don't know why you're sure of that, unless you're talking about words like, "Good morning". But words like that aren't the point here, we're talking about words that constitute some sort of oath of national allegiance or fealty.
The words "under God" were clearly intended to reference the Christian faith, as there are religions such a statement is not compatible with and the initial legislation was initiated and pushed heavily by Christian groups. I imagine one could make a case that it's simply pushing the Abrahamic faiths, but I don't think you can really say it's just "religion in general".
I do like the idea of holding off until the children can really comprehend it, JustMe. I would like to see the Pledge treated more seriously as a rite of passage, something you have to prove yourself for. New (legal) immigrants are often thrilled on saying the Pledge for the first time as an American citizen because they feel a sense of accomplishment; I'd like all Americans to be able to have that. I really wouldn't object if it were simply indoctrination, though. Some indoctrination is permissible (maybe this gets back to DizneeTeacher's point, though I think it's erroneous to assume that all, or even most, countries engage in some kind of fealtic oath).
Incidentally, it's International Blasphemy Day. So in support of it and respect for the sentiments of those here: Thor does not exist, and in fact is a ridiculous attempt to explain thunder.
Evidently not in Great Britain (see http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/world/europe/11iht-london.4.10942352.html), and I'd guess not in most of the rest of western Europe either - perhaps as a reaction to the Nazis.
I just came across pix of my dad & some buddies from his tour!!! It's so funny to look at.
We just purchased a brick for a local Vet Memorial that he'll be a part of & he was very honored.
3 sons & TG... I will just have to end this here... I don't dispute what I have read & see that you have given examples but just because it isn't in print somewhere on the internet doesn't mean things aren't said or whatever. Please don't blast my opinions either. I will respect yours as long as you respect mine...
Major, just wondering what you think of the roots of the pledge in socialism, given your apparently rather strong views on that topic.
No worries. You've stated your opinions respectfully, as I hope I have (except regarding anyone who follows the Norse pantheon).
Why not take one day to explain some of the Pledge to the students. I think many of them have forgotten the meaning, or more likely, that it never was explained to them.
Red Skelton starts out that the principal of the school observed,"I have been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance, all semester, and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you...may I try to explain to you the meaning of each word."
If something has lost it's meaning, should we not attempt to inform, to educate the students. Then they have information to make their own decisions.
I encounter the the same feeling of monotony in the classroom as Red's principal. Teachers, how is it in your classrooms?
I attend several functions with veterans of W.W. II each month. We always begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. There is no monotony in those rooms during the Pledge.
I didn't intend to associate pledges with Nazis - far from it, and if it came across that way I apologize - but only to suggest that the history of Europe in the 20th century might have something to do with the status of pledges there.
Should I have baldly asserted that there are no pledges in Europe as my experience there some years ago suggests, rather than seeking and citing the reference I could find for one case? That seems an odd way to make a case, somehow.
Good post Ross...... I've done that numerous times. I think it would be a good thing for "real" teachers (I'm a sub) to do that at the beginning of each year....
Interesting article. I'm familiar with the site. The "Pledge" has indeed evolved over time. I have no problem with it in it's present form. I say the pledge with great pride........... no matter what group I'm with --- 3rd graders, high school seniors, veterans or members of my particular political party..
Just Me - I agree with much of what you have to say. The problem is, many Americans (and I am generalizing here) seem to believe that there is only one God, and if you do not believe in said God you are not a proper American. Now, I could very likely be making this generalization because this segment of the population seems to make the most noise.
I believe very firmly in diversity and anything that encourages children to follow blindly is something that I don't and can't believe in or accept.
Major... Allow me to jump in again and ask a question that I've been wondering for awhile. I mean no offense here, but it's gotten to a point that *I* am uncomfortable. Why is it that when users, such as myself earlier (and likely others), who repeatedly have made clear our beliefs, or in my case, the very specific lack therof, do you insist on providing regular religious responses to.... such as "read the lord's prayer" or "may the one true God bless you"?
As before, I don't believe there is one true god. And your statements of that nature strongly come off as "I am right, you are wrong". That makes me uncomfortable, and almost seems intentionally antagonistic after knowing some of our beliefs. You are welcome to your beliefs, but please don't try to impart them upon us.
As to topic: this is why I dislike the "under god" in the pledge, or the attempted "moment of silent prayer" nonsense schools try to do. Individuals who love those events (such as yourself, as you admit) seem perfectly happy making those kids who don't believe as you do feel uncomfortable or upset. That's NOT okay to me.
This thread has gotten off-course and has become too personal. This is an education forum, not even a teacher chat forum, and we are supposed to remain professional. Passing judgment in any way on someone else's religious beliefs certainly doesn't fall under those auspices.
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