Ralph Lauren and Its Photoshop Disaster of An Ad

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by maya5250, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. maya5250

    maya5250 Comrade

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  3. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    Their response was ridiculous, but I think that ad was a total failure at the advertising agency. Lauren ads are not usually quite as bad as some other brands (looking at you, Calvin, Gucci and Dolce) in terms of unrealistic models. Like Armani, Lauren has mostly used slightly curvier models because they shows the clothes and fit the silhouettes better.

    But I do wish people would learn to pronounce "Ralph Lauren" properly if they are going to be using it in a media show!

    Edit: this link sort of shows what I mean, although these ads are ~3-5yrs old.

    http://www.fashionising.com/forums/t--Ralph-Lauren-advertising-campaigns-877-1.html

    Also, one reason I am willing to give RL a little defense here is that they were the FIRST major American label to produce a quality line of plus sized clothes at reasonable prices. Calvin Klein, Donna Karan, Tommy Hilfiger and others have since followed suit. But until Lauren Woman, if you wanted similar clothes, you had to go to Saks and buy Dana Buchman or others for 2-3x the price. Also, sizing across the RL lines tends to run a bit larger and more realistic than many other lines. You can pretty much ALWAYS stay to your size in any given piece, and they run about 1/2 size bigger than most lines. I went to the Lauren outlet last night and in 20 minutes, picked up what I wanted in shirts, pants and skirts. I didn't have to try on multiple sizes or go through all that fit nightmare. I just picked stuff out and left. :lol: (I did pay before leaving :eek:)
     
  4. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    ...Wonder why we have issues with food and weight in America?
     
  5. peggy27

    peggy27 Cohort

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    The media needs to learn that women and also men are not all the same size. Be happy with whatever size you are and try to look your best. the unrealistic expectations of being a size 0 need to stop.
     
  6. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    I don't think we can entirely blame the fashion industry. I've lived in Ireland and the Netherlands, and they have the exact same fashion marketing. What they DON'T have is quite the same judgmental societal attitudes that we do. Women there, in general, are a lot less neurotic about body issues and more likely to accept themselves. I remember trying to explain to a group of Dutch girls why I would not go to the beach and wear a bathing suit. Most of them were the typical tall, slim Dutch build, but a few of them were shorter and from ~size 10-16. They did not understand that I felt too fat to wear a bathing suit; it was an alien concept to them. They just said "well don't wear a bikini."

    Other countries like Argentina are as bad or worse than the US for this. When I was losing my weight and got down to a size 6 (5'7 and 130 lbs), I had several guy friends who told me that I would be pretty hot if I lost another 10-15 lbs. Excuse me?! That is exactly the kind of crap that is most damaging to women. I knew girls in college who were teeny tiny and always trying to stuff themselves into shrinking AE and Hollister sizes. I tried on AE jeans once. I was wearing size 4 in RL, CK, Old Navy and Ann Taylor, size 2 in Levis, and I needed size EIGHT at AE to even sort of kind of fit. Girls who had hips or boobs were constantly depressed that the clothes don't allow for either. I knew a girl at school who couldn't fit into the AE skinny jeans because she actually had hips, and she HAD to have those because everyone had them so she was on a constant crusade to lose 5lbs she didn't have to lose. I finally convinced her to buy a similar pair of CK jeans in her proper size and she looked so good to finally wear stuff that fit.

    And the women's magazines. Ugh. Front cover with skinny, air brushed celeb and inch high "LOSE 10 LBS" then under that "OUR BEST CHOCOLATE CAKE RECIPES."

    At least magazines like Vogue pretty much only stick to the fashion. They don't have diet articles and they don't tell women how they should look.

    Didn't mean to go on a rant, but having been fat most of my life, I can tell you the negativity doesn't come from the sources people like to blame. I've read Vogue religiously for over 15 years. Never once did reading Vogue make me depressed. Cosmo, 17, women's magazines? Yeah. They suck. They show size 000 models next to ads for weight loss or junk food. Vogue just sells a fantasy/art form. I'm not saying the fashion industry doesn't contribute, just that as an isolated source, they can't do it all on their own.
     
  7. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    It's pathetic.
     
  8. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    And second graders actually think they need to go on diets.
     
  9. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    Exactly my point. We can't blame the fashion industry for this. They don't help, but if the fashion industry tomorrow started using only size 10+ models, what would change?
     
  10. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    What would change? People would see beautiful, 'average' women looking fashionable, confident and real. (Actually size 10 is still smaller than average...)
    I love the Dove campaign for real beauty, the ads for underwear and bras using 'larger' women...
    Yes, we could all benefit from more media messages that a healthy body is beautiful.
    Consider the following:
    http://www.fullandfabulous.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=17064
    The average American woman is 5'4", weighs 140 lbs, and wears a size 14 dress.

    The "ideal" woman--portrayed by models, Miss America, Barbie dolls, and screen actresses--is 5'7", weighs 100 lbs, and wears a size 8.

    One-third of all American women wear a size 16 or larger.

    75% of American women are dissatisfied with their appearance.

    50% of American women are on a diet at any one time.

    Between 90% and 99% of reducing diets fail to produce permanent weight loss.

    Two-thirds of dieters regain the weight within one year. Virtually all regain it within five years.

    The diet industry (diet foods, diet programs, diet drugs, etc.) takes in over $40 billion each year, and is still growing.

    Quick-weight-loss schemes are among the most common consumer frauds, and diet programs have the highest customer dissatisfaction of any service industry.

    A recent survey found only 30 percent of 250 randomly chosen women age 21 to 35 had normal bone mass--the researchers concluded women are so afraid eating dairy products will make them gain weight that they are starving themselves into osteoporosis.

    Young girls are more afraid of becoming fat than they are of nuclear war, cancer, or losing their parents.
    50% of 9-year-old girls and 80% of 10-year-old girls have dieted.

    90% of high school junior and senior women diet regularly, even though only between 10% and 15% are over the weight recommended by the standard height-weight charts.

    1% of teenage girls, and 5% of college-age women become anorexic or bulimic.

    Anorexia has the highest mortality rate (up to 20%) of any psychiatric diagnosis.

    Girls develop eating and self-image problems before drug or alcohol problems; there are drug and alcohol programs in almost every school, but no eating disorder programs.

    To say that the fashion industry plays no part in this is ludicrous. Sure, it's a multi-faceted issue, but let's at least admit that ads such as the one featured by the OP have a part to play in the lunacy.
     
  11. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    How are you supposed to pronounce it?
     
  12. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Many people accent the second syllable in 'Lauren' .

    According to GQ, however, it's pronounced like the girl's name.

    Not something that keeps me up at night.
     
  13. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Yeah, that's what I though. I watch those fashion competitions like Project Runway and they've always pronounced it like the girl's name.
     
  14. Sciteach9

    Sciteach9 New Member

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    I'm sure many of you have already seen this, but this is is similar to that RL ad. I can't post any links yet, so check out "dove evolution" on youtube.
     
  15. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    It's here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYfwIAWWH6M
     
  16. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    I didn't say they play no part, just that I think other factors are MORE important. Why do European countries with the exact same advertising not have the same problem to the same severe extent? Overall, women have healthier body images in countries like Ireland and the Netherlands. I can tell you that women's magazines in those countries don't constantly have the juxtaposition of these ads with junk food ads, diet ads and cake/cookie recipes. Women there do deal with wanting to lose weight, sure. But the mania isn't the same. I was on Weight Watchers in both the US and in the Netherlands, and the difference in meetings was HUGE. There was almost no talk about body image issues in the Dutch meetings. Not that everyone felt totally great about themselves, but the pressure was missing. I had a friend who was an American living in a small village. She was quite large (over 300lbs). She was an oddity in the village because there were few foreigners, but she told me that she thought about her weight so much less than she ever did in the US. She didn't lose weight, but she said she felt so much better about herself. Other factors were probably being in a good relationship, but feeling more accepted by society was certainly part. I was a size 18-20 when I lived in NL--much larger than the average Dutch woman, and I also felt less judged. I could also buy clothes in ANY store, something I could not do in the US.

    I think something like the Ralph Lauren ad looks stupid in Vogue or W, but becomes much more dangerous in Cosmo or Women's Day.

    I agree that the Dove campaign is great. But I think society has to shift and then Madison and 5th avenues will follow. I just don't think we can blame them without taking most of the responsibility ourselves.

    Other countries have a problem with this too: Argentina for example has become notorious for body image issues among teen girls. This is society fueled. We have to fix THAT.

    The fashion industry is completely unrealistic and toxic, but I think it is easy to overstate the influence they really have. We have to buy it for them to sell it.

    I mostly chimed in here with a small defense because it is sort of ironic that RL, the least offensive of them all, is taking the brunt of increased criticism. Not that they don't deserve it for that stupid ad, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it was just sloppy work and overzealous Photoshopping. If it were Calvin "waif look" Klein, I wouldn't be as charitable. If you look at the back catalog of RL advertising and their website, they are not anywhere near as bad as most house. Sure, the models are insanely thin, but they don't look anorexic and they mostly are showing some curves. Also, I think they deserve some credit for being among the first to address the needs of the average consumer. Other labels were concerned about "diluting" their brand and image by making plus size clothes (this is EXACTLY why H&M does not advertise or always have larger sizes in the US like they do in Europe. Executives admitted this.), but RL put out a line of well cut clothes up to size 28, they did not charge extra for them and the styles were the same or adapted from the regular collection. This was really a milestone in the industry. In the years since that line launched, there have been increasing more and better clothing options for plus sizes. This doesn't give them a free pass for stupid ads and even stupider responses to being called on them (lawyers, cease and desist? really?), but I do think RL should get some credit for what they HAVE done.

    It is just Lauren, like the girl's name. He is from the Bronx, was originally Ralph Lifshitz and changed his name. The whole family uses Lauren now.

    These are just issues I feel sort of strongly about since I love fashion, have battled weight/body image issues AND have experienced all of these things in several countries.
     
  17. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    I saw a study once where they asked Kindergartners to choose the prettiest of 3 pictures-all beautiful women, the only difference was the size and 100% of them chose the skinny girl as the prettiest.

    I have a feeling the whole thing may have been a way to get press time-look how many people are talking about Ralph Lauren now. Any publicity is good publicity right?

    Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 - she wouldn't even be able to get an audition today, but was an icon of beauty back then. How many "plus-size" models (by the way that's a size 10) have ever won America's Next Top Model-none. They just wouldn't make it in the industry. We've come to expect it from the fashion world, unfortunately.
     
  18. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    I saw one episode of that stupid plus size dating show. They gave the heights and weights of all the women. It was revolting.
     
  19. Emma35

    Emma35 Connoisseur

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    Size 10 plus size! YIKES!
     
  20. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    Some even consider an 8 to be plus size. Lane Bryant uses size 10 models in their ads, or used to.
     
  21. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Yeah, remember on America's Next Top Model when the size-10 blonde girl (I forget her name) won? Every time she was interviewed afterward, she would mention that she modeled plus size fashions, but that she was a size 10 and felt like an average-sized gal. She was a good spokesmodel for the cause, though certainly not large.

    Those are very interesting observations about other countries, mollydoll. Thank you. I was surprised that a Latin American country had become so weight-obsessed. I guess I was biased in thinking that Latin American countries tended to be more forgiving of weight.

    It kills me when catalogs for actual plus size clothing use models that are big-boned, but definitely not at all fat.
     
  22. futureteach21

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    I am totally with you on this one that there needs to be change, but just for the sake of ANTM, there was a plus size winner. They always said she was a size fourteen.

    Here's her pic:
    http://www.imageandstylenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/antm-whitney.jpg

    I am "overweight" and have been through all of high school and college. I'm currently trying to lose weight. BUT for the right reasons. I realized how unhealthy I was. I got sick a lot and couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing. I never thought to myself "I need to lose weight to look like a celebrity or a model". I looooove having a curvy body so I will lose weight until I consider myself healthy, but I won't ever be a size 2. And that's a good thing.
     
  23. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    That's her - Whitney.
     
  24. maya5250

    maya5250 Comrade

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    Body image is a complicated issue that requires a complicated solution. Change is possible but it's going to be slow. I found this article talking about factors affecting negative body image and solutions to fix the problem in youth culture.

    Body image, media, and eating disorders: http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/30/3/257
     
  25. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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  26. silverspoon65

    silverspoon65 Enthusiast

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    I think it is pretty obvious that MM was never over a size 10. She might be considered plus sized today but not by modeling standards. I just get annoyed when people use that to justify being overweight. Sizing changes and some of her clothing is probably sized European. But I think from pics you can tell that a size 16 woman today would never fit in her clothes. http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/...article6044724.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

    I would like to see more realistic sized models but I would not want to see overweight or obese models. I don;t think young girls need that as a role model either. They just need to see a variety of sizes and know that they are pretty no matter what they look like, and they should be more worried about how healthy they are (says a self-proclaimed fat girl here...)
     
  27. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    My daughter is 5'11" and 130 lbs. I asked her if she ever considered modeling and she said, "No, because I'd probably become anorexic." I was glad that she knew herself well enough to foresee a problem.

    And this self-proclaimed fat girl (who is just 5'3") looks absolutely ridiculous walking with my DD.
     
  28. DallasTeacher

    DallasTeacher Companion

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    Take care when quoting statistics about the "average" American woman. One can also use statistics about heart disease, diabetes, and other health related issues to state that obesity is a problem in America.

    I have to run 4-5 miles several times weekly, attend kick-boxing (thanks Major!) 3 times a week, and other training also to keep my weight/clothing size where I want it. I've had several comments over the years about how easy it is for me to eat what I want, but believe me, I work at my health. I still remember how the extra 25 pounds felt with my last child. It was hard to walk distances, tired easily, and in general felt sluggish. I know that part is genetic but part of the weight problem in this country is the number/type of calories consumed. I've got students in my class who are grossly overweight and only in the 7th or 8th grade. One of my male students is over 300 pounds, whereas one female has to take the elevator because she can't walk up one flight of stairs without stopping to breathe at almost every third stair.
     
  29. KinderCowgirl

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    Oh, I wasn't justifying being overweight, believe me-just saying that she would never make it as a model/superstar today. And I believe she was a 14-if only her top half :p.

    And I stand correct about ANTM-how could I forget about Whitney! :blush: I was just saying that there isn't really much variety in models when you look at magazines-they are all really small sizes that are pretty much unattainable for most "regular" people. Fashion designers don't even design clothes over size 4-particularly for the runway.

    My mother is a size 0 and I think very unhealthy. She eats about 600 calories a day and walks 6 miles/does Pilates-every day. The first thing she does in the morning is get up and weigh herself, entering it into an Excel worksheet-she has data going back for years. Her life revolves around weight-is that because of the fashion world-probably not-but I know if she saw that ad it would be hanging on her fridge for incentive.
     
  30. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

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    "One-third of all American women wear a size 16 or larger"

    I feel like this is a fact showing how fat America is. If you are getting much larger that a size 16 then you are overweight. Yes, there are people who just are big boned and are fit but I don't think many of them even wear a 16 or larger.

    I would like to see size 6, 8 models. I feel like we only have plus size and super super skinny. Maybe if we slowly upped the sizing in the models then society would follow.
     
  31. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

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    I don't want the people on here who are size 16 or larger to get mad that I said you were overweight. As I said, there are some people who are very healthy at that point and just big boned. But I would doubt all of the one-third are.
     
  32. 3Sons

    3Sons Connoisseur

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    "Callipygous" did not originally refer to skinny women.

    The ad is annoying. Overweight women are not necessarily unattractive. The media and our society can make them neurotic, though, which *does* make them less attractive. Overweight women often cannot develop a normal sense of self-esteem, and end up either nervous and needy or overbearing and obstinate. I agree with czacza -- to a certain extent, the fashion (and entertainment, and media industries) play a part in this.
     
  33. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

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    I think the fashion world fuels society and more importantly Hollywood to blow it out of proportion. What hurts me more than the fashion world is the tiny girls on Gossip Girls and 90210. Kids are watching these shows and think that that is what they should look like.

    Even on shows like Ugly Betty, which is supposed to embrace differences, she was clearly shown to be fat (which of course she isn't)

    While I would not like to see unhealthy overweight models I also do not want to see unhealthy underweight models. There has to be a middle ground that isn't referred to as "plus-size"
     
  34. JustMe

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    Sizes six and eight? That's pretty limiting. I understand people are built differently, but it doesn't seem these sizes would provide much variety. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to ever wear a size six or eight. My hips could be shaved to the bone and neither size would come close to fitting. At my very thinnest I wore a size 11/12...and trust me when I say I should never get below the weight I was at that point because people were already pointing out that my cheeks seemed sunken.

    Well, I'm getting annoyed with this thread...sorry. :unsure:
     
  35. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    I don't pay attention to fashion magazines or models. I don't care what size they are. I go to the store, try on clothes, and buy them. I'd rather have no fashion sense than waste my time worrying about what size models are and how they look in ads.
     
  36. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

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    I meant 6,8,10 etc. I just got lazy. Sorry!:)
     
  37. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    BTW, it is not true that designers don't design above size 4. It IS true that most designers use European sizing and Euro sizes tend to run smaller, but you can go to the Chanel boutique, for example, and buy clothes that easily go up to a US 10/12. The clothes are also designed to be tailored to fit so seams can be taken out too.

    That said, it is sadly hilarious to watch the designers have melt downs on Project Runway when they have the "real women" challenges. Michael Kors is mostly pretty good about designing clothes that work for actual, living, breathing humans, but I don't think he makes a plus size line. Boo on him.

    I know I sound like an apologist for the fashion industry, and I don't mean to be. I just feel that they often get used as a scapegoat for problems that could be addressed more constructively. For example, stores like Hollister that only sell tiny, teensy, and itsy bitsy sizes. I've seen girls in there trying to cram into whatever it is they "have" to have and it isn't pretty. American Eagle and Abercrombie are just as bad. Their advertising is absolutely horrid and it is all aimed squarely at the most vulnerable demographic for body image issues. Most haute couture, while certainly influencing more consumer friendly brands, doesn't exert as much influence on the street. I suppose I am drawing a distinction: artsy Versace ad shot in shades of neon orange, using a size 000 starving waif model isn't going to cause as much harm as an Abercrombie ad of half naked size 000 girls wearing clothes that kids are actually going to go buy.

    When I was in school, the it label was Guess. I could wear Limited, Liz Claiborne and Calvin Klein stuff, but everyone had Guess, and they stopped at a small size 10. I always felt so bad about myself because I was too fat for Guess. Now, at 35, I can look back and say "big deal," but it was traumatic for a 15 yr old.
     
  38. futureteach21

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    I won't lie. When I was 15 I went on a diet with this goal in mind: "I will lose weight until I fit into Hollister Jeans." Yeah, never happened. But that was my mindset.
     
  39. silverspoon65

    silverspoon65 Enthusiast

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    Sorry, I didn't meaning being YOU were justifying anything, I just meant it's a non-fact that I hear all the time because women want to say its ok for me to be overweight because MM was. Well, obviously she wasn't. When I was a 14/16 I def. didn't look like her. It's kind of denial. She might be heavier than most models today. But that's about it.

    I just think models should be hired by healthy they look and are, regardless of size. People with a certain BMI, high or low, would not make good role models.
     
  40. McKennaL

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    To begin with... I can't stomach Rachel Maddow...so I turned your clip off quickly.

    That picture is totally creepy...but I can't see it as ANYTHING that anyone would buy as even CLOSE to a normal picture. The ad reminded me or those fashionable boot advertisements for Steve Madden...where they would distort the person to make their feet look huge in comparison. (Didn't like those ads as well). Sketchers had a few of those types of ads too.

    But for a fashion design house (such as Ralph Lauren), especially one as classy as they are...this wasn't a good look at ALL (not even by those distorted ads mentioned above). I am just surprised it got past the higher-ups. It was a total fail as far as I am concerned. If I came upon that ad in a magazine, I would probably turn the page quickly (due to creepiness)-and maybe even fold the page over to not look at it again.
     
  41. mollydoll

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    Oct 13, 2009

    That's why I think that this particular ad was a mistake of some sort--lack of editorial oversight, whatever. It just doesn't fit with all of their other ad campaigns unless they suddenly did a drastic change. Plus, the creepy alien looking factor. It just doesn't look real. I haven't had time to read my September Vogue yet. I'll have to take a peek at the ads.

    The ones that disturb me most are the ones where the women look bruised and beat up. Gucci is (in)famous for this. I'm really not sure how that correlates to the Gucci image or sales.
     

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