Puzzled

Discussion in 'Early Childhood Education Archives' started by Grammy Teacher, Sep 22, 2005.

  1. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Sep 22, 2005

    I have this 4 year old girl in my class who is very active and smart. She is not a discipline problem for the most part, but if she is, she listens to me right away. Here is the problem. We have the kids lay down to rest/nap everyday and that also happens to be my break time...that and lunch time, so I leave and a different person comes in to feed and get them all settled on their bags for nap time. Well, she used to be soooooo naughty at the table, that I finally moved her to eat at this little table alone, but near the others and she is fine there. However, when it is time to lay down to rest, she kicks the walls, makes noises, and laughs in the other teacher's face and then gets sent to the office...every single day! Then when I come back from my break, I take her back to my room with me and have her lay down to rest and she is so-so...
    This has been going on for a couple of years with her. She was like this in the previous room as well. The rest time is always a very bad time for her and for us. I have tried everything! She just won't quit acting up at rest time. So, now I need some advice. What would you do?
     
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  3. Mamacita

    Mamacita Aficionado

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Maybe she just doesn't need a rest time? My kids seldom napped after they turned two. Could she just be bored? Not everybody needs a nap, but I wouldn't know what to do with her while all the others rested, either. (not a young-un's teacher!!!!)
     
  4. Syele

    Syele Companion

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    Sep 23, 2005

    This all came up when I complained that my daughter wasn't getting her nap (she takes 15 min to fall asleep and will never fall asleep with books and puzzles!)

    The pre-school my daughter went to told me there was a state reg that no child has to lay down for nap for more than 10 minutes so the ones who are still awake after 10 min get to quietly do a puzzle or look at books in their spot.

    Maybe try having the other teacher make her lay down for the first few min and then she gets books if sh'e quiet for that 10 min? I'm with Jane, maybe she just dosn't need a nap and is bored silly.
     
  5. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Jane and Syele, that is the problem...she doesn't need a nap, but I don't know what to do with her during nap time. My own kids didn't nap at that age, but they were home with me all day.
    Anyway, the rules are, according to the state licensing book, that a child is to rest 30 minutes and then can be allowed to be up. She is so naughty the minute I leave the room. It's as though the whole nap time thing just drives her insane.
    The only thing I can think of is to have her sit on her bag with books. The problem is finding a spot where the other kids can't see her because then THEY won't go to sleep! Some of them sleep for over 2 hours! I am concerned about this daily fiasco from the standpoint that it gives her a negative image of school and frustrates me and the rest of the staff beyond explanation! We are all going nuts over one little girl who won't shut her trap at nap time! I think today I will just let her stay up. Let her sit on her bag with a pile of books and see what happens. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for your help!
     
  6. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    And by the way, because she isn't doing what I WANT her to do, like the rest of the kids, there will be NO treats of any kind for her or any special privileges.
    Something else I need help with. She holds her pencil with her fist. She is the only child I have who does that and it is really very rare for me to have any kids who do this at 4 years old. We have all been working with her on this and she still can't hold her pencil right. What do you think?
     
  7. kimrandy1

    kimrandy1 Enthusiast

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Oh, I have lots of kids who still "fist" their pencil (but, then again, I'm in a preschool program for kids at-risk for school failure, and lots of them have barely SEEN a pencil before coming to school). Our OT suggested an alternative grasp for them, so that they could get used to seperating their two halves of their hand. She says to rest it on the "valley" between the middle finger and the pointer. It almost forces the kids to develop a tripod grip. It's easier to transition to a proper hold once the hand muscles are used to doing this.

    As far as the nap thing....I haven't ever worked in a program that required a nap, as I'm in a public school and we're governed by a different set of regulations. But, I'm never above bribing a child!
    Kim
     
  8. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Grammy, send her home a few preschool pencils and ask her mom or dad or guardian to practice holding it at home like 10 minutes each night.

    Because I work out of my home and don't ever get a break, it is mandatory for my kids to lay down and rest. I would go batty if I didn't get any kind of silence working 55 hours a week. In a daycare setting I would probably do differently, as long as the child is quite while he/she was up. If not...back on the cot they go. The naptime is when planning gets done and it's hard to get things done when you have a child that needs much attention. Personally, I think it depends on what you think is most important. I am stubborn personally (go figure hey? ;)) and am all about the 'lesson learned'. If she was in my class I probably would not let her up if she was being disruptive. You can even point out in the licensing book that it says each child must have at least 30 minutes of "rest" time. Being loud to me is not rest. On the other hand, sometimes we need to pick our battles. I guess it depends on what you feel is more important...her learning to be quite and listen, or you not pulling your hair out.

    Is this the same one you've been having issues with?
     
  9. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Only 10 minutes? Wow, I don't even fall asleep within that amount of time. At least 30 seems more logical.

    I think you also have to consider each child. I have one that is so wound up and spazzy that it takes her a little more than 30 minutes to fall asleep. If she doesn't sleep, she's a bear! When she falls asleep she also sleeps for 2 hours, so I know she needs it or she wouldn't sleep that long. She doesn't realize (or maybe she does) that if she would just lay there still, she would fall sleep. This is the same girl I constantly bring up in threads. It's never boring when she's around that's for sure.
     
  10. Bernard

    Bernard Companion

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    Sep 23, 2005

    How about an book on tape with headphones during the first part of nap? She can listen to the story as long as she is on her cot and quiet. If it is done quietly, the other children will never know. (You could also offer the other kiddos cassette player walkmans and books on tape as they wake, if it becomes an issue.)

    Another thing that might work is a kitchen timer with the amount of time that you expect her to rest (20 or 30 minutes?) marked with marker. She can help you set the timer each day and have it near her cot where she can look at it. If she can stay reasonably calm and quiet and on her cot during this time, she can have a privilege, such as coming to the table to draw or play quietly. You might reset the timer if she gets out of hand.

    Two other things that I have found calming for restless nappers are water timers (the water-filled tubes with little drops of colored oil that slowly fall) and weighted blankets. A weighted blanket has weighted edges, so that it provides some pressure for the child. They are often used with children with developmental disorders, but many normally functioning children enjoy them.

    Lastly, consider that this may be anxiety about nap or bed time. She may need an adult close, and the only way she knows to get one for sure is to be beastly. :) I had a child come in with many of the same behaviors. I later found out that she had been in a toddler setting where she was held down forcibly in a pitch dark room until she screamed herself to sleep. What is her bedtime like at home? Does she run til she drops? Sleep with parents? Fall asleep in front of the TV?
     
  11. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Oh my gosh!!! Are you serious? I hope those people were turned in!

    That happend to my son once in the daycare I ran. The teacher was on her second day, she held down my son on his cot, and that was it. He was upset because he didn't know who she was because she was new and he was scared. Luckily I did not see it and this teacher didn't know he was my son. I had 3 different teachers tell me the same story and that was enough to send her packing. I hope I never have to experience that again.
     
  12. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    I went to work and discussed this girl AGAIN, with the director and the teacher who relieves me when I go on break(the time that this little girl is the demon)Well, I found out more of what the little darling has been doing while I am gone......SO that made me even more determined to stick to my original plan. She is not going to be given any special consideration. She will lay down and be expected to be quiet. If she is not, she will sit in the office until I come back from my break and at that time I will take her upstairs to lay down. That is what I did today and I told her she had to be quiet for at least 30 minutes and she was.....so I made a big deal out of it and told her that now she could have some toys on her bag. However, she has still not learned that she has to do that for the other teachers as well. So, she is still not getting any of the special privileges that are given at various times in a day. I constantly remind her why. Next week we are going to the pumpkin patch and that will be taken away from her as well.
    Yes JenPooh, this is the same little girl that I talked about earlier on a different post.
    Bernard, I have been considering using the timer, but the problem with that is, it could possibly wake up other children who are light sleepers or are just drifting off to sleep. At home, she has no specific bedtime. Her mom said that they can't get her to settle down at home either. She has some real issues about sleep. What do you think? HOwever, if she does finally fall asleep, she would sleep for 4 hours if I didn't wake her up. She really needs the rest. Her eyes are all red all of the time. I like the idea of a weighted blanket. Where would I get one? I can't be sitting by her every afternoon. I have a LOT of work to do during this time, as JenPooh mentioned. That is the only time we have alone ALL day long and we really need the time to get our other things done as well as maintain some sort of sanity...seriously.
     
  13. hescollin

    hescollin Fanatic

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    Sep 23, 2005

    For nap time we put a video in and play it softly and this takes care of our problems.
     
  14. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    a movie? We are not allowed to have a VCR .
    If you mean music, I have that on every day...very soft nice sleep music.
     
  15. hescollin

    hescollin Fanatic

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Movie ---yes. Three Little Pigs, Cinderella, Dinosaurs-Dinosaurs, Humpty Dumpty and many more, There goes an Airplane, There goes a Boat, There goes a Train. There Goes series are very educational and etc. Sorry that wiped that idea off the board. Walkmans from Wal Mart for five dollars would be the next best.
     
  16. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2005

    I would tell the parents that it's up to them to be the parent and make sure the kid goes to bed at a specific time. No wonder she doesn't settle down. If she's not use to going to bed until she says so herself, she must not have the structure. Do they just let her fall to the floor when it's time to go to bed? I could not do that. My son is in bed by 8pm unless it's a weekend when we are out at some friends house and he's playing with a friend or a holiday at a relatives house. It sounds like the girl is in control at home, or am I wrong?
     
  17. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    Sep 23, 2005

    I absolutely never took naps. My mom told me by the time I was a year old, I didn't sleep during the day. I've just never never really needed a lot of sleep. Most nights I get around 5 hours and I'm fine. In kindergarten we were required to nap for an hour (our preK and K are still an hour). Mrs. Germany could have handled it in a lot of ways, but after a couple of weeks she realized that I just didn't need to nap so the deal was, I layed down for 10 minuntes (the big hand moved to the 1) and I got to get up go into one of the 1st grade teacher's rooms. (My mat was behind her desk away from the others.) I sat in the back of Mrs. Foshee's room and read or wrote. When nap time was over I went back to my class. Much more peaceful than it could have been! :)
     
  18. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Christy, that is what I would like to do with this little girl, but there really is no where to put her(like your first grade room arrangement) She really does not need to nap. That is not even what we are trying to do with her. She simply needs to have the decency to be quiet and rest for 30 minutes(or even less!) and she refuses to do it for anyone except me.....and sometimes not even me. So, what would you do?
     
  19. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    As for giving her a walkman,she doesn't deserve that kind of privelege.She is so disrespectful. How would you feel if a 4 year old laughed in your face when you asked her to be quiet? That is what she is doing now because she knows that the teachers cannot really do much about it. Her mom will say she can't watch videos as a form of discipline at home, but when I ask her about it (the girl) she says that she DID watch some videos. There seems to be no consistancy at home. She lives with her mom and grama and her grama is very nice and seems like she wants to do something about it, but doesn't know what to do either. Today I left a note telling them what she had been doing all week...(they already knew some of it) and I asked them if she had ever been to a Pediatrician about her bedtime habits and such. So, we'll see what baloney mom fills us full of on Monday.
     
  20. Judie Martinez

    Judie Martinez Rookie

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    Sep 23, 2005

    Maybe she truly does have some kind of sleep disorder. I'm sure lack of a consistent bedtime at home doesn't help matters but it sounds like they are struggling there too. I have had kids who were being sexually abused and were just plain terrified of falling asleep. I don't mean to imply that that is the case with her but maybe there is some reason she just doesn't feel comfortable or secure sleeping there. As for the weighted blanket, my sons OT suggested a much cheaper alternative. You can get a fishing type vest from American Eagle or some place that sells sporting goods and fill the pockets with small weights depending on how heavy you need it to be. My class this year doesn't nap as well as last years crew which does make it tough to get things done. I tell my "non-nappers" that they must lay perfectly still for 15 minutes and after that I will let them up. I say if you move even your big toe, I'll have to start the timer all over again ( I have this giant size hour glass) usually, if they can just be still for 2 seconds, they fall asleep but if not I give them books, puzzles, coloring pages,etc to do on their mats. I used to let them go to the table but the noise level got out of control that way. I wouldn't be too worried about the other kids not wanting to sleep because of it. Those who are tired will fall asleep regardless. Either way, she is so disruptive they aren't sleeping anyhow right? As a former director I want to caution you against what kinds of activities are being withheld from her as a result of not napping. You can't MAKE a child sleep and here in NY state child care regulations specifically state that children can not be punished for their refusal to sleep because the wording says "a quiet rest period" so not taking her on the field trip or excluding her from other activities could get tricky. I think sending her to the office just reiterates the message that the person who is supposed to be running the classroom is not in control, plus, it gets her out of napping and unless there truly is some medical or neurological reason, that is what she is looking to avoid so.......
     
  21. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Hi Judie,
    Yes, I have considered some type of sleep disorder and that is why I have asked her mom if she has been to a doctor. I will hear from her Monday. You mentioned the signs of sexual abuse. I have even thought of that. That is another reason I want her to go to the doctor, but I will not be suggesting that to mom. I want her checked over and make the doctors do the diagnosis.
    I am aware of what you are talking about as far as activities being withheld. If you read my posts again, you will notice that we are not concerned with the fact that she is not napping. No one cares if she sleeps of not. We are concerned with her behavior toward other teachers. She is rude when they feed her lunch. She puts her legs up on the counters and eats with her hands. This is so ridiculous. She doesn't act that way when I am there. We can legally keep her from going on a field trip for being so naughty. It has nothing to do with sleeping or not sleeping.
    As far as sending her to the office because she will not listen to the teacher in charge, the idea of sending her to the office is the director's idea. I have never sent her to the office. She listens to me. It is my replacement teacher who she is rude and naughty for and has to be removed from the classroom so the other children can get to sleep. They cannot sleep when she is in the room. She gets them all wound up. So, when I come back from my break, I pick her up in the office and take her back to my room for her rest. The rest of the kids are asleep by then so she has no one to show off to. This way she is not getting out of her rest time.
     
  22. Mamacita

    Mamacita Aficionado

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    I agree with Grammy (I always agree with Grammy!!!) that at this point it is not about napping, but about obeying. And if the little brat refuses to obey a direct order (be quiet!!) then she doesn't deserve any privileges whatsoever until she puts out with not only obedience, but also an apology for the brattiness. And yes, four is old enough to know what both of those things are.
     
  23. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 24, 2005

    I agree, and I a lot of times agree with Jane. Maybe we should be nicknamed the 'mean girls' of the forum...just kidding. We're not mean, we're just honest and realistic. Obeying adults, rules, and having manners is a must. I refuse to have any child in my preschool who does not display those. My patience is not worth losing over any child.
     
  24. Judie Martinez

    Judie Martinez Rookie

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    I have said before, Kudos to Grammy- seems she gets all the winners in her class????!!!! Are you open to speaking to your director again about keeping sleeping beauty in the classroom despite her behavior. I know it is really tough on the others but how else can you make her understand that the rules are the same regardless of who the teacher is in the classroom. What about switching your break time and trying to get her settled before you leave that way you are not having to return to a total disaster every day. I have had many of the same problems w/my son. However, he is bipolar and truly cannot be in control of his behavior once he reaches a certain point. We have had to find many creative ways to deal with him in the classroom. I'd be happy to share them with you but that is a story for another day. It is difficult to think of it in these terms but rather than viewing it as having to make consessions for one particular kid,we have had to think of it as alternate coping strategy(for us and him) I can't help but think there is more to this kid than just being bratty. I hope the doc has some insight for you.
     
  25. Syele

    Syele Companion

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    I'm sitting here thinking that it's the other teacher who is making this worse. Any Child who gets their way the majority of the time and has no consistent boundaries will be a brat.

    If you are consistent and stubborn with her enough that she makes some progress only to understand that You are the only one who will do this, she will just go back to behaving that way whenever you aren't there. Obviously (to me) sending her to the office is giving her what she wants and that is what the other teacher does. I doubt it will get better until the other teacher buckles down and fights the battle until the girl understands that Grammy teacher is not the only one who can make her behave.

    I'm resting up for Monday... I get to take on a girl who was kicked out of pre-school for behavior issues. *cringes and starts sharping her stubbornness.*

    Some kids are stubborn and they just have to learn who they can't run over. You can't make her parents control her (sadly) everyone at the school should use the same procedure with her no matter what.
     
  26. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Syele...that is the problem...the other people who care for her need to take charge, but ya know how that goes...some people just don't have the ability or whatever...and some of are staff who relieve us are part time or new and are not sure how far to go or what is acceptable. In fact, the person who is doing my breaks right now is new. I have showed her the ropes for doing lunch and getting them all down for rest. The other day she was trying to get them to quiet down at the table and they wouldn't listen so she told the kids no talking for 2 minutes. Well, one of the teachers heard her and came up and told her she couldn't talk to the kids like that! She told the director and the director told her to ignore this other teacher...thank goodness. It's no wonder there is no control for this kids when she tries to do her job(as I told her to) some other busy body interferes. As for me taking my break at some other time, I don't want to.
     
  27. JenPooh

    JenPooh Virtuoso

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    Sep 24, 2005

    I don't blame you Grammy. It's a perfect time slot right before nap. I always hated going on my breaks right as soon as the kids were alseep. It seemed to be a waste.
     
  28. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    Sep 24, 2005

    Grammy,
    When you "showed her the ropes" did she actually observe you getting them down for rest time? If not, perhaps she should spend some time observing how you handle this stinker. She should see your methods and what works with her. Consistency with this one sounds like a key! Other teachers need to realize this relief teacher is trying to provide that and to but out when she has a plan to remain consistent with your policy and ways of running the classroom. Maybe you need to talk to these "butinskis". If she did observe you , perhaps it wasn't long enough........she may need some more lessons.
     
  29. scarlet_begonia

    scarlet_begonia Comrade

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    Sep 24, 2005

    It sounds like you've tried so many things, you may have done this too, but here goes.........I read a bedtime book to my kids every day. But they must lay on their cots with their eyes closed while I read. If they move or open their eyes I'll stop and tell them BY NAME to lay down. If they don't want to close their eyes they are welcome to cover their heads with their blanket. If I have to stop reading because of the same child twice (maybe three times) then I stop reading and inform the other children that since so and so keeps interrupting, storytime is over. I've never had one child lose storytime for the class more than twice.

    By the time I'm done reading, they're almost always settled down if not asleep. If they rest quietly for 1/2 hour I'll let them get something and take it to their cot. Have you had her earn that with the other teacher? If she's quiet until you get back, she can color/read/play with a doll on her bag?

    p.s. my kids lay down 10 minutes early so I'm not reading at the "official" naptime (it's only an hour!!!)
     
  30. Grammy Teacher

    Grammy Teacher Virtuoso

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    Sep 30, 2005

    A quick update on my little darling! She has had a couple of good days. Getting better, I think. Thanks everyone!
     
  31. clarnet73

    clarnet73 Moderator

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    Oct 1, 2005

    Grammy, youl iked the timer but were worried about it going off and desturbing the other kids... what you need is the time timer (timetimer.com, I believe? just google it)... it has red showing how much time is left, but it never dings, just all the red disappears.

    That would be a silent timer for ya. :)

    Glad to hear it's getting better...
     
  32. dreamcatcher4

    dreamcatcher4 New Member

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    Oct 6, 2005

    Weighted Blanket Information

     

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