Proposal to arm teachers

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Let's debate whether or not it's a good idea to arm teachers and not let it trail out into society in general.
     
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  2. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    My one qualm is that a guard can't be everywhere. Then again, neither can whatever theoretical teacher/teachers with a gun.
     
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  3. creativemonster

    creativemonster Comrade

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    I would not ever carry a gun, nor would I feel comfortable working in an environment where any teacher or administrator could. I would not feel at all comfortable even if the guns were locked up. Now having said that, I have the sheriff's office on my campus, so we have armed folks walking around all the time interacting with our students. I mostly don't think about it, but I admit I am just not a fan of guns in ANYONE's hands. Except neon water pistols...now that's a different story entirely. Those too are banned in my district and i really really wish we could have a water pistol fight school wide at end of year.
     
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  4. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    I want to say that some years ago before my state made it law that a school or its community cannot demand to know who is concealed carrying or not, some schools were debating, as individual schools, whether or not to make lists of who was carrying, just in case.

    Specifically on the original question, I just can't get behind requiring teachers to be armed. To me, it's responisibility above the pay grade.
     
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  5. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    I have 3 rifles (I hunt) but no handgun. So far I have not had the desire to buy a handgun and obtain a CCW permit. My shotgun is under my bed (and I have 2 German Shepherds) and I feel perfectly safe. If I lived and walked around in dangerous areas, I would probably want a CCW.

    An armed person can prevent more crimes. In states when open carry is allowed (Nevada for example), the crime rate is lower. Why would someone go to a Walmart and start shooting people and they knew 30 people around him probably are armed and can shoot him after the first few shots are fired?? Or break into a house knowing most people probably own guns?
    In this case, having more guns can actually fight gun violence. Right now, criminals have guns and not so much law abiding citizens.

    Having some teachers armed at school could prevent more shooting at a school.
    I'm not sure if I could shoot a teenager (a student of mine) who bought a gun to school and started shooting his classmates.
     
  6. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Do you have a source on that? There is a lot of crime in Nevada.
     
  7. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    I don't think my school needs armed teachers because we have: two full-time security guards (unarmed, but both former military and both trained in crisis management,) two full-time ROTC instructors (both military, and with guns locked in a safe at the rifle range) and one police officer (armed.) During times of high stress (during testing, last week or so of school year, when we play our rival school in a major sport) we hire additional (armed) off-duty police officers. I feel safe enough.
     
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  8. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    This is silly, you can't do that, all the same arguments are there. Every single post on this topic is the typical gun control topic. To say keep it about teachers is silly, they are the same arguments.
     
  9. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Here is a perfect example. I disagree with this in many ways. I don't think it prevents shootings in this way. Most of these shooters end up killing themselves, they are not worried about getting shot, it is a suicide mission.

    I also think guns change the mentality of people. They can change the passive, timid person into the baldest %$%# in the building. I also think it can escalate situations. Instead of trying to deescalate a situation with words, some will just show the weapon and say "bring it on, see how it goes for you".

    I think not knowing who is armed can turn the situation into a "home invasion" type situation where the criminal knows to quickly and viciously take out the threats.
     
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  10. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    No, no. Just don't try and convince anyone else that they are wrong.
     
  11. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Ok, so all the typical gun control points of view and debate is acceptable in this post, especially in the context of schools, as long as it does not devolve into personal attacks? Is this correct?
     
  12. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    This isn't true. The highest murder rates are in these two states in 2015 are the same states as 2014.:
    Highest are (with murders/100,000 people)
    1. Louisiana 10.3
    2. Mississippi 8.7

    These two states do not have strict gun control laws.

    By the way, Nevada is the 9th highest at 6.2/100,000. This is much higher than the national average.
     
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  13. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    I worked at a preschool where the director's husband was a police officer.

    He was a nice man, and sometimes he'd come visit his wife and stop and talk with the kids for a little while. But, seeing the gun on his hip as he conversed with small children always made me feel uneasy. Of course, I have no actual issue with it - who better to have a weapon than a cop - but it was unsettling to see preschoolers so close to a gun.

    I don't think that a teacher who was carrying a weapon would likely wear it on their hip for all to see, but I do think it would make me feel similarly uneasy. Logically, I get it, but even if I fully trusted the person, it doesn't seem like the right environment in which one should see a gun.

    Mostly, I just dislike that this is even a debate at all. I hate that schools shootings are something that we as teachers have to think about!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  14. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    I'm surprised that so many schools have their own security officer. I've only been in districts where there's one or two total. If we had the money to have armed security on campus, I would prefer officers over teachers carrying weapons, but the state budget is a royal mess and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Most districts around me are not replacing teachers when they leave/retire, so they certainly aren't hiring other positions.
     
  15. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Where would a teacher carry a pistol that would not be noticeable by students? I am curious as I do not own a pistol. This is directed to anyone not just otterpop.
     
  16. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    There's actually quite a few options particularly if you go the concealed carry route. Ankle, thigh, etc.
     
  17. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

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    Really? You know what I mean.
     
  18. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Well, yes, I think so. You, general, may discuss your points of view without politicizing the issues. And I'm sure you can, Pashtun. Other mods may disagree with me (we don't get together for summits to plan our restrictions!), but I doubt a professional discussion would warrant it.
     
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  19. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I agree we should be able to do it, I do think no matter how we talk about it is poilitical, I just don't think that should be the problem. I think every post in this thread has political tones with gun control, yet every single one seems to have been respectful.
     
  20. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I honestly did not, I took it literally as post your opinion or thoughts, read others, and refrain from responding to others.
     
  21. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Yeah, ankle would work well.
     
  22. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

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    Ok, let me break it down how to avoid a debate online.
    1. Read post.
    2. Respect post.
    3. Choose to comment or not your respectful thoughts on the topic without shoving your views as the only correct views.

    If this comes off as a smart-aleck remark, it isn't.
     
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  23. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    I'm thinking more of having that gun locked up in the classroom (but easily accessible in an emergency), and so much carrying it around. Teachers spend most of their days in the classroom.
     
  24. ChildWhisperer

    ChildWhisperer Groupie

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    Yes, that's a good idea, but what if you're walking in the hallway or outside for recess?
     
  25. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Guns locked up in classrooms? Around curious kids? Man, I don't know. I still remember what it was like to be a kid and how creative who could get. I also remember multiple times being in classrooms late at night(sneaking around with friends) when a play or something was going on in the auditorium....
     
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  26. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

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    Linguist, I think you are a great example of the rare teacher who I might possibly see being safe with a gun at school. You are trained in handling a gun, you understand gun safety, and you are comfortable using and securing a weapon. Yet, even in cases like yours, I personally do not believe that having guns on campus would make campuses safer. There is too much evidence that shows that people who own guns are more likely to die in gun-related killings: http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-guns-20140121-story.html

    Having guns around statistically increases your chances of being involved in gun violence. The statistical likelihood of a shooting on any campus is, in reality, still very low -- so I would not want to invite increasing the likelihood that it would happen on mine.
     
  27. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

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    Arming teachers with the means to kill someone is a very serious proposition. How much training would it take for a teacher to possess skills with a gun that would be commensurate with the best of law enforcement? Throwing a teacher into the classroom without real, sophisticated and on-going training in lesson delivery and classroom management is, all too often, a fact of school life. An incompetent teacher is not a life or death situation. If you make a mistake teaching you can try again. If you make a mistake with a gun it's final.

    A "gun" solution to a complex problem seems like a huge and dangerous leap without exhausting other means which are less costly in terms of safety. Too bad the legislature didn't propose all schools to come up with a plan that would go beyond "lock down" and encompass all possibilities before resorting to gun versus gun.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
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  28. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    I am not convinced at all that any training really exists for teachers to become "trained" with a gun for these situations. I believe it takes 2 things to be "trained".

    1. You have to already have an "aggressive, fearless, or confident attitude" in dangerous situations.
    2. The real training to be able to respond properly, consistently, and effectively is developed slowly over time, by being put in dangerous situations day in day out. As in being a police officer or soldier. I doubt they are "prepared" for combat right out of training, I am sure it comes from real life situations AFTER training, and on a consistent basis.

    Similar to teachers, I don't think teachers are truly "trained and prepared" until they have actually been teaching, been in the situations.
     
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  29. Mr Magoo

    Mr Magoo Comrade

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    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  30. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Yeah, our school is talking about having each class have a baseball bat, several cans of food, etc... for exactly what you are talking about.
     
  31. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    We have lockdown drills at least once a term. Students or staff who are in the hall when a lockdown is called are not "on their own"; the expectation is that they go into the nearest classroom. All teachers have a quick look in the hall as we close and lock the door to pull in anyone in the hall.
     
  32. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    I recently read an alarming book that delved into more information than the title suggests. Grossman, Lt. Col. Dave, Kristine Paulsen, and Katie Miserany. Assassination Generation: Video Games, Aggression, and the Psychology of Killing. N.Y.: Little, Brown and Co., 2016. Many of the ideas and discussions in this post are mentioned in this book. One alarming observation from Grossman is that the shooters are trained, but trained in unorthodox use of weaponry, by video games, so my conjecture would be that a properly trained teacher against a video-game-trained shooter might put the advantage toward the shooter; same thing with lock-down drills, not that they are wrong and I do agree from an education viewpoint that drill is essential in order to react properly in a real more stressful situation, but I question if these are enough.

    I see both sides on this debate of arming teachers. An important discovery for me was during a workshop for parents at my school. The workshop leader armed a volunteer with a cap pistol. She approached him as a burglar and he was instructed to shoot the burglar. The volunteer was instantly disarmed and shot with the cap pistol. The moral was, guns don't protect people: people protect people. Any hesitation will swing the advantage from the victim to the perpetrator. Grossman writes about this, too. Military and police personnel need training to overcome the initial hesitation in killing another person.

    Are there other defenses that we should be exploring? Near my area, drug dealers arm their houses with exotic animals, not that I think we should keep a lion in each classroom, but the point is, are there other means of protection aside from or even along side of guns. In any event, I agree, special and extensive training would be needed for teachers to carry a weapon. I've heard several misconceptions about weaponry. The person should only shoot to maim the intruder. As a police officer said at one school I taught at, that only works in the movies. You should only try to intimidate the intruder so that s/he drops the weapon or runs away. The intruder isn't playing by a set of preconceived rules or notions. There is no guarantee this will work. Grossman also explains (with fMRI photos) how the shooter is operating in the lower brain apart from the logically thinking upper brain. Most people miss when they shoot. Grossman describes the amazing accuracy of current shooters due to video-game practice. When I've watched westerns, everyone misses even at close range, but again, real life is not the movies. The other fear I have about arming teachers, could the teacher get to the weapon in time if it's locked up. The problem, too, with checking the halls, although it must be done, the people checking don't know where the shooter is or how many there are.

    My greatest fear is that schools might not take the invoking of emergency procedures seriously. They might hesitate so as to check if it's really an emergency. That happened in one of the first school shootings; the newspaper said the teachers thought kids were setting off firecrackers. Schools are currently more alert, but considering the lack of seriousness during fire drills (among teachers, not students) I wonder if lock down drills will soon be regarded that way. There can be NO hesitation in response to an active intruder on campus! NONE WHATSOEVER.
     
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  33. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Lot of good stuff in here.

    One of your basic gun rules is never point your gun at something you aren't prepared to kill. All the talk of shooting to wound/scare is so off-base. Trying to just wound someone just ups the risk for shooting a bystander.
     
  34. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    Finally, I would have a purpose for those boring basals that are taking up space in my classroom.
     
  35. minnie

    minnie Cohort

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    I took an active shooter workshop (or whatever you call it lol) and they said to barricade the door with desks and table. Whatever. The goal of an active shooter is to shoot as many people as they can so if your classroom is seen an an inconvenience to get through, they're going to move on to an easier target (classroom). If every classroom does this, it gives that much more time for help to arrive if they can't get in. Also, the workshop said NOT to hide under desks. You are a sitting duck for the shooter. They said to throw whatever you can. A Swinger stapler is a lethal weapon when thrown.

    Basically, don't make it easy on the shooter. At least you know you weren't just sitting under some desk.
     
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  36. Spedmistress

    Spedmistress Rookie

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    I do not like this idea. What if one of the students gets a hold of the gun?
     
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  37. minnie

    minnie Cohort

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    Well if the shooter gets in then the teacher is pretty much the one throwing whatever he or she can. Like I said, it's better than hiding under a desk where you are seen. But that's just me.
     
  38. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Because in my state teachers cannot be forbidden from or required to report concealed carry, I don't know how many teachers do in fact have weapons on them.

    But no student has snatched one off a teacher yet.
     
  39. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    Given the stressful nature of teaching I am not sure that I would want some of my stressed out colleagues in possession of a gun!
     
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  40. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

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    I would rather have an exotic animal in my classroom than a loaded gun...In all seriousness, though, what about trained dogs? Each campus could have a dog trained to sniff out weapons, or to attack anyone who starts shooting. Not to kill the person, but to pull them down and keep them down until law enforcement gets there.

    Also, I wonder if some of these shooters might show more empathy towards an animal than a human being...
     
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