Prop 8 Supporters just won't quit!

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by Peregrin5, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/15/us-usa-gaymarriage-california-idUSBRE96E0VO20130715

    So even after the landmark decisions on DOMA and Prop 8 a few weeks ago, Prop 8 supporters are continuing to state they they will do all in their power to stop people from marrying.

    I mean, really, what is it that these people have against us? Don't they have better things to do? Their doggedness to deny equal rights to fellow humans just gets my goat.

    Luckily their most recent demand has been turned down. I just don't understand the mindset of these people. Anyone care to enlighten me?
     
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  3. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    As someone who has flip-flopped on this issue, I'll try to do my best to explain where my feelings once lied (lay? Laid?)

    Many Christians (though not all, and I would even venture to say not even most) believe that God has played a role in the history of the United States (and in my case, Canada). He blesses us because we are "Christian nations"... But when laws are put into place that redefine what God's idea of marriage is according to their view of the Bible, it is seen as an attack on the institution of marriage, and an attack on God. There is a feeling that if the nation as a whole makes laws that "promote" sin, that they are turning from God, and that God will remove his blessing. Many of these people are hateful people, but I feel strongly that most are not. While I know it is hurtful, most prop 8 defenders would not mean to be hurtful in the least, they just have what I would consider a skewed belief system.

    I don't know if that's clear enough, but I hope it helps you understand a little more. I've since come to the conclusion that I shouldn't be allowed to "legislate" my Christian beliefs, and that God will bless me if I love God and love my neighbour.
     
  4. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    I don't know. One of my best friends and his husband moved out of state to be married. I really miss him. Thank goodness for texts, twitter, and Facebook.
     
  5. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Maybe this will explain it?
    [​IMG]
     
  6. TeacherShelly

    TeacherShelly Aficionado

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    STG, that is kinda hard to read (small font) but once I got it, I got it. Thanks for sharing it!

    To quote Ben Folds,
    God, I love Ben Folds.
     
  7. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    As a Christian, may I ask that we remain respectful of others' faith systems, please? :)

    (If I'm out of line, I do apologize.)

    Thank you. :)
     
  8. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    My best friend is Christian and her church understands that the bible was written during a time that was different. Things change. We don't shun women during their menstruation. We eat pork and play football games made out of pig's skin. Things change. When people are supporting same-sex marriage, they are not attacking God or the bible. It's just understanding that we are in a different time period now.
     
  9. TeacherShelly

    TeacherShelly Aficionado

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    The thing is, there are so many different kinds of Christians. Some believe the bible is infallible and that God would not allow it to be distorted despite things changing. Some of these kind believe the old testament was only for Jews, and it is not necessary for those who believe in Jesus to keep the rules set there.

    Some Christians believe like Peachy's friend. Others have other ideas.

    The reason I love Ben Folds is that he outed the American Christians who believe they are chosen by God to be more blessed than others.

    Back to the original topic, those who are for Prop 8 don't want to live in a world so immoral that people can legally break God's laws. That is all.
     
  10. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Agreed. It's like saying, "All people eaters are purple and can fly." Perhaps many of them are, but let's not alienate an entire group because of the beliefs of some. Treating each other as we'd want to be treated and all that. I realize that I'm saying this as non-Christian, but I'd want the same consideration.

    As for the Prop 8 proponents, no matter their religious affiliation, their arguments are legally dead in the water. The appellate court ruled that they had no standing for a grievance.
     
  11. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Ted, I don't know if this was directed at my post or not, but I didn't mean to make fun of anyone's faith system. I had seen this picture a few times around and thought it was funny so I was posting it just to be funny. And btw, I am a Christian too.
     
  12. paperheart

    paperheart Groupie

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    All I know is I absolutely cannot wait until the day I marry my fiance. If the law stopped me because he was a woman instead of a man, it would be the saddest thing in the world.

    There is so much hatred to put a stop to in the world, why would we want to put a stop to a form of love?
     
  13. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    Hi SmallTownGal. :)

    I appreciate the apology, but it was not directed at your post.

    I just have seen these type of threads (involving politics and faith systems) usually spiral down, so I wanted to make the humble request.

    Again, thank you for your kindness. :)
     
  14. teacherwithlove

    teacherwithlove Comrade

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    My thoughts exactly.

    I used to be very close-minded... grew up in a strict Christian family. Now that I'm more open-minded, I'm starting to realize that a lot of major religious sects are treating Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered people as if they are second class citizens and I'M SICK OF IT.

    Just because some people are born this way (or choose to be this way) doesn't mean they are a lesser human. I feel like some/most Christians want to segregate... I don't understand why they feel the need to degrade others based on sexual orientation.

    People should be allowed the right to marry whom they choose. They should get the same benefits and losses that straight married couples get when they become married.

    I have gotten into numerous heated discussions with my dad about this... he claims that God doesn't want people to be gay and my response is...

    Maybe he doesn't? Or maybe he does? Who knows? Do I think God intended for my brother to be born with Autism? No, probably not. But it happened because I know we live in a world where things CAN happen.

    People can be born straight or gay or without eyes or with three limbs or with an addiction to meth.
    Who knows if those were his intentions or not? I don't know. It's not my job to judge or decide...



    I hope I didn't offend anyone but this issue has really hit close to home with me.
     
  15. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I honestly don't get why it's difficult to understand why some Christians are against homosexuality and gay marriage. The text they so greatly value as part of their faith indicates to them that it's wrong. So, they don't support it. The fact that these same people may or may not dismiss or gloss over other parts of the scripture is of course questionable, but the Biblical reason against homosexuality as they interpret it still stands. Why they choose to "pick this battle" and while paying little attention to another sin varies. I was raised in a very hateful environmental in terms of homosexuality...yet the same people disgusted by that and quoting the Bible to support that hatred both had affairs. Yeah, it confused me...yet I was still able to at least pinpoint where their disapproval came from.

    All this said, I absolutely support gay marriage. 100%.
     
  16. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    It would all be settled if the GOVERNMENT stop issuing Marriage licenses and issue Civil Union licenses and make it retroactive. Let the CHURCHES issue Marriage Certificates.

    That way if your church does not believe in same sex marriages they don't have to issue a Marriage Certificate
    And if your church does believe in same sex marriages they can issue a Marriage Certificate

    A Civil Union license would be the same as a present day Marriage license, with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto a Marriage license.
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    No.

    I think that if I am allowed to be married to the person I love, then everyone should be allowed to be married to whomever they love. Period.
     
  18. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I also don't like the idea of changing the terminology. Marriage isn't a strictly Biblical concept. Changing things feels like throwing gay people a bone. Just let everyone get married.
     
  19. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My denomination is still against same sex marriages. To me a marriage is a covenant between A Man, A Woman And God. Personally I would like to see only churches bestow the title "A Marriage," this changing the terminology could be throwing a bone to the Religious also.
    I have a number of friends who are in a Civil Unions and I say more power to them.
     
  20. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Hey Dave. I think the problem is here is that many people who hold the same beliefs as you, feel that it is their right to legislate their beliefs into law at the expense of others.

    As others have stated, marriage started out as a civil institution for the sharing of property, and only had religious connotations associated with in the past few hundred years (and on and off again multiple times prior).

    I don't think the word "marriage" should belong to only one religion and one subset of people. To try to keep others from using it I feel is incredibly selfish.
     
  21. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    We'll try to ensure that doesn't happen. I have great respect for others belief systems. I only ask that religious folk also respect the lives of other human beings.

    I myself used to regard myself as Christian, and still do under my definition, but I've had too many people tell me I'm not one because I don't follow the bible to the letter or have the same views they do.

    (Having grown up in different denominations it's interesting to note that many of the denominations don't regard each other as Christians either. I.e. Catholics and protestants and some of the protestant denominations are in conflict with others.)
     
  22. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    :hugs:
     
  23. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I think you pretty much hit upon my question there. I understand why some people are against gay marriage, but I was wondering why some people could be so vehement against it that they would doggedly continue to actively oppress lgbt folks. I have also seen a lot of acting like the victim on the other side of the issue as well, for instance claiming that we are discriminating against Christians by allowing gay marriage, or by enforcing non discrimination laws in business and workplaces. It still just baffles me that people could hate us that much.
     
  24. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Ah, okay. I misunderstood your original question to be more basic than it was. You're asking why some Christians are so severe in their reaction to homosexuality (as in the case of my parents who very obviously sinned in their marriage yet made a point to teach hate for gay people). That is more difficult for me to understand. However, my mother has explained this. I'm not saying I agree (gosh, please don't think I agree!), but she explained that when you are a gay you are choosing to sin every day. If you stole from a neighbor, you did it once. You ask for forgiveness and you don't do it again. If you have an affair, you stop having the affair...and in my parents' case get married so it makes the affair seem less horrible and more "legitimate". But as a gay person, you continue to have gay feelings and act on those gay feelings every day, thus failing to acknowledge it's a sin worth stopping. They feel it's a slap in the face of God, so to speak, and they feel it's their responsibility to "eradicate homosexuality".

    Of course, some Christians just also happen to be a--holes. Their behavior shouldn't be a reflection of their faith but of their rotten personality, but because they preface every hateful thing they say or do with the Christian or Bible or God, people naturally associate their hate with Christianity.
     
  25. physteach

    physteach Companion

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    It is so simple for me - we do not live in a theocracy so religion does not dictate laws. People can object all they want, but it is wrong for them to dictate how I live.
     
  26. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    I think why some people are so vehemently against it that they would protest is because to them, they are called to lead those sinners back to God. I know that not all Christians view homosexuality the same way; however, like everything else, we're only shown the ones like these protestors.
     
  27. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    I think you worded this well, SmallTownGal.

    Most Christians agree that homosexual acts are sins; however, some feel that homosexuality is a greater sin than other sins.
     
  28. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    I honestly think they feel like better people for defending "family". I heard the other day that only 20% of American families are classified as a nuclear family-2 parents married living together with kids. Many of those straight marriages that they defend end in divorce. I just think maybe it's time to redefine the concept of family.
     
  29. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    My biggest problem is that people of these faiths believe that their religion should play a role in government.
     
  30. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    True Christians understand they are just as flawed as everybody else.

    With regards to hypocrisy, that isn't a concept isolated to Christians.
     
  31. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    These are my personal beliefs as well. And, like Irishdave stated, my beliefs are PERSONAL. That means that I live MY life according to MY set of moral values. That means that I don't presume to tell other people how they should live their lives.
     
  32. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    The Christian Bible (I can't speak for other faiths, I'm afraid) states that all authority comes from God and that we are to respect all authority as if it's from God, unless of course that authority acts in a way that is against God's word.

    If a country's government, for example, was to pass a law: "It's okay to steal from your employer, as long as you can justify it because your family is in dire straits and needs the income." - that would go against God's Word.
     
  33. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    Right, and that's nice and all but we have separation of church and state which is supposed to protect people from religion influencing government. If we let one religion rule the entire country and all the laws in it, we'd be Iran.
     
  34. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    And with that, I'll leave this thread.
     
  35. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I'd actually be interested to know where I'm the bible you got that from. I know the respect authority part being a direct teaching of Jesus, but I've never heard the part where you have a right to rebel if it doesn't follow biblical principles. Not saying it isn't there, this would just be the first time I've heard of it and I've gone to Sunday school all my childhood and my dad is a pastor.

    Jesus did say render into Caesar what is Caesar's, and I'm almost certain that the Roman empire was not behaving in a way that the bible would approve of.
     
  36. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    One problem is the different translations, I have studied "thou shalt not kill" and in the research it says that it should have been "thou shalt not Murder"
     
  37. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    Christians are to abide by the law of the land... this is true, and they should be obedient to the secular authorities (Titus 3:1), as long as it doesn't go against God's laws, like the apostles said at Acts 5:29: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men." When it goes against God's law, then we do not obey.
     
  38. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    We have separation of church and state which is supposed to protect people from government influencing religion also, we'd be Soviet Russia
     
  39. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    That passage from acts was in the context of the disciples protesting their imprisonment for teaching. They were neither advocating rebellion against the law not trying to change the law to match their beliefs. I think you are extrapolating a single statement too far.
     
  40. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    And how is government influencing religion? We've already concluded that marriage doesn't need to be religious, and nobody is forcing churches to marry who they don't want to marry.
     
  41. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    But as you know many Bible verses "Multi task" and can be used apart from the original 'gist' of the verse.
     

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