Professor believes in no forms of teacher imposed consequences

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by SF_Giants66, Nov 13, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Nov 14, 2014

    Which is why I said originally that the OP's professor should spend some real time in a classroom before teaching students the kind of stuff she is espousing.
     
  2. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    564

    Nov 14, 2014

    In my limited experience, but which includes family members as well as coworkers, child psychologists rarely have a firm grip on reality.
     
  3. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Nov 14, 2014

    How true!
     
  4. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    This does not solve the problema in any way, it just passes it on to someone else.

    People make it sound like you could change the child's behavior if "we just applied more grit", I simply have not seen a consequence yet that would change any of the behaviours of the severe chronic behavour students.

    We have permenently removed 2 students from our school this year, guess what, nothing changed, they are exhibiting the same behavours at the new school.

    If your idea of a gritty consequence is just removing them from school, I understand that. That is not what I am discussing here, I am asking, as I think several are implying, what "upped" consequences would change this type of students behavour....I haven't seen any and can't imagine any working...the students are too much psychologically going on.
     
  5. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,733
    Likes Received:
    1,652

    Nov 14, 2014

    I've been wondering the same thing. What is more grit? I know that one definition is firmness of character and others have to do with sandy like particles that are rough and irritating.

    Have they just been moved to a new school or were they put in a specialized program designed for students with special emotional needs? Our county has an in-patient and out-patient alternative education site for kids with behavioral problems. We do have alternative high schools that suit all kinds of needs from just needing a self-paced program to other issues, but what I am talking about is a fully staffed mental health facility that provides both mental health services and education. Unfortunately, they are short on open spots due to the growth in our school district and increased needs of the student population.

    Our district has much better luck with these students when they are properly identified, identified early on (mental illness can show at any time), have a school that is willing to do the paperwork instead of looking at the child just a kid that needs more grit, and a parent that will trust the district or can be taught about mental health services and how they will really help. Unfortunately, there is often a piece of the puzzle missing. The sad part is once a student has been determined by someone to be just a "regular behavior problem, lazy, etc", it gets put in the notes about the student and that clouds the judgment of most of the next teachers and the child gets lost in the system.
     
  6. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2014

    I dislike the hierarchy of punishment plans. The answer to punishment not working is not more and more punishment.
     
  7. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,733
    Likes Received:
    1,652

    Nov 14, 2014

    Punishment is usually about breaking someone down. Do something negative and unpalatable so that the behavior will change. Some believe that the reason a punishment doesn't work is that it hasn't been applied long enough to make the person believe you are serious. It is based on the idea that the person has complete control over their choices at all time.

    Knowing what I know about mental processes, people with executive function problems do not think in the same manner as those without executive function problems. People with processing problems do not think in the same way as those without processing problems. There is a range of executive function and processing skills. It also seems that people do have a choice because when something happens at the right time and the process actually catches the detail, a correct decision can be made leaving people to think that it really is a choice.

    So, I agree, continually applying the same or similar methods with people typically doesn't work.
     
  8. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    Yeah, this is what I am thinking too. These kids need severe, professional help. I don't look at this as a consequence, but rather trying to get them appropriate help.

    IMO, some of these kids NEED to be able to throw their tantrums and be in an environment where the staff is like, "that was interesting Billy, now let's get back to work", in the general classroom this just reaks havoc on the class culture.
     
  9. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    This is EXACTLY what I think as well, hence why I even posted in this thread.
     
  10. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    8,316
    Likes Received:
    1,440

    Nov 14, 2014

    What do you suggest would work when consequences won't? Perhaps that might be where that professor might have ideas.
     
  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Nov 14, 2014

    In response to this and the whole "consequences are/are not effective" discussion, I'd throw in that it's not so much what the consequences are as how they are applied. Consistency is one variable of importance, but not the only one.

    Take, for example, removal from the classroom. If this happens in a "step-wise" fashion in which a child is first removed from group and given a chance to rejoin, then sent to the door if noncompliance continues to occur, then sent to another teacher's room, then to the office (all in escalating steps of "time out" for continued noncompliance), and moving to each additional step costs the child more time off a preferred activity, this could have much more of an impact that if the child is just hastily removed from the room.

    Also, consider what happens before the consequence. Is skill prompting attempted? Differential reinforcement?

    Then, consider what happens well before - does the teacher have a strong relationship with the child? Has the school met and created an individualized plan for the child that pulls in all available mental health resources to support the child's good decision-making? These aren't just important in their own right - they have an impact on how successful the consequence will be each time it's implemented.

    Consider what happens after the consequence - did being sent out of the room get processed with the child? How did it get processed - did the teacher scold the child and attempt to scare him/her into compliance or coerce into future compliance with threats of more punishment, or help to consider alternative behaviors to use?

    Consider the language used during consequence implementation, the attitude of the teacher when implementing, and so on.

    One of the most commonly problematic problem-solving discussions I see when school personnel are talking is a lack of specificity with interventions when discussing why they "didn't work." So many folks will say, "I tried reinforcement - it didn't work" - but they tried reinforcement in a very specific way, and it was most likely some element of the "how" that failed, not the very concept of reinforcement.

    So....talking about specific consequences (e.g., removal from room) without contextualizing it tends to not be very helpful, as the topography of the consequence is only one of many possible reasons why the consequence didn't work.
     
  12. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    Love love this post.
    I totally, 100% agree, and with that said, I certainly need to improve at analyzing these on a more consistent basis with chronic and severe behavour students.

    Ed, thank you for such a well thought out post, this gives me so many things to think about when I apply consequences.
     
  13. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Nov 14, 2014

    Thanks Pashtun - appreciate the kind words, and always appreciate the intense discussion and what you contribute on this forum!
     
  14. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    564

    Nov 14, 2014

    While I agree that there are SOME students that have severe mental problems that prevent them from learning proper behavior, I do not believe that the numbers are that high. Yet I see more and more students placed in these categories. "They can't help it, it is just the way they are."

    I call BS in almost everyone one of those cases. I believe it is laziness/incompetence on the part of the parent (primarily) and school staff.

    I generally ask myself when dealing with these kids two questions: would they do what was right if I offered them a million dollars and would they avoid doing wrong if they knew they'd lose a limb/eyesight/whatever otherwise? If the consequences are great enough, would they THEN be able to control their behavior?

    I am amazed at how some of my past students that "couldn't help it" when it came to bad behavior made GREAT and shrewd businessmen when it came to illegal activity on the street. We had one young man that as a mere high school student was the #2 man in a rather large gang in our area. He couldn't take direction from anyone in a position of authority at school. Staff had to tiptoe around him lest someone set him off. I'm pretty sure that the #1 guy didn't tiptoe around him. So obviously he COULD take direction from someone. Obviously he was smart to work himself up to that position. He just chose not to use his skills at school. School was just a way for him to network anyway, he sure didn't need it. But according to his file being ODD was something he couldn't help. @@
     
  15. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    The students I have had, that I am talking about would absolutely 100% fail your test.

    I have had a kid break his hand trying to punch it through the window. These kids are physically restrained. In fact, giving your test would likely make the situation far worse, as most kids would try, fail, and be sent into a deeper despair over trying and failing.
     
  16. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    564

    Nov 14, 2014


    That's a shame. Like I said, I don't doubt that some of these children exist, I had one student that would have probably failed the same test myself. Those children, IMO, have no business being in a general public school. Their psychological needs far outweigh their academic needs.
     
  17. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    435

    Nov 14, 2014

    Yep, that is my feeling about it as well.
     
  18. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    986

    Nov 14, 2014

    It has been mentioned that a relationship with the student is important when it comes to managing behavior. I couldn't agree more.
    I'm just really curious that at a high school with 35-45 students in a class, 6-7 periods / day, how can a teacher really get to know each student?
    At my school, because it's so small, and we have no more than 16 students in a class I can really get to know them, and if I can't, my P will tell me the student's background story, triggers, issues, and strategies to use with them. It is invaluable to me.
     
  19. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2014

    This is a very Hammurabi type approach. I would see these kind of consequences as inhumane and abusive. Getting them to behave out of respect is much better than getting them to behave out of fear mongering.
     
  20. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    217

    Nov 15, 2014

    There aren't just 2 categories out there - those that are just "lazy" and those that have severe psychological problems. I do agree that both categories exist, but I don't think there are tons of students who are squarely in either.

    Let's take your $1,000,000 example and it explore it a bit further. The first thing you're trying to get at is "skill vs. performance" - if a child can do it if the reward/consequence is high enough, then we're putting the lack of expected behavior into the "performance" or motivation category. In one sense, this is true - the child likely does have the capacity to physically perform the skill. Let's take compliance with adult directions as an example. Most kids - even ones who don't behave well - do understand how to physically accept adult decisions. They understand the words that need to be uttered, etc. If the price is right, many will choose to demonstrate the behavior. However, just knowing the topography of the skill (physically how to do engage in the behavior) is only one dimension of skill performance. Understanding when to use the behavior, why to use the behavior, how to modify the behavior, etc. are also critical elements of the skill. So, we can't use your test to really understand skill vs performance deficit because all it does it serve as a differentiator between those who do and don't understand the skill topography - not those other dimensions.

    Also relevant are non-skill mediating variables such as background emotional issues that may be interfering with consistent skill performance. Take a skill such as "raising your hand." Most kids understand how to raise their hand physically, and most can probably tell you when it's important, and probably even why. However, some may not have developed enough impulse control to refrain from blurting out. Is this a performance deficit? Would we call those kids "lazy" because they didn't raise their hand, or somehow otherwise morally deficient? Or, are they just not fully developed in the frontal cortex of their brains?

    If "skill vs performance" is more muddy than just "lazy vs extreme mental illness," that makes our adult responses that much more necessarily complex. We can't assume everyone who is physically capable of engaging in a behavior is just lazy when they don't do the right thing. We have to dig deeper and explore one of the many reasons why kids may be misbehaving, from lack of response inhibition to ineffective moral decision-making, social perspective-taking, etc. We then have to craft responses that match the needs of the kids we work with. If we treat all kids as either lazy or mentally unstable (and being unfit to be in public education), we won't be very accurate or effective.

    As a side note, I'm not saying we don't use punishment/reinforcement in situations when the issue is a skill (vs performance) deficit. We just have to use them a bit more specifically. For example, we might include skill instruction and prompting followed by reinforcement, rather than just reinforcement by itself.
     
  21. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    145

    Nov 15, 2014

    I think there is a point in classroom management when the teacher should not have to become psychologist, therapist, warden and Solomon at the expense of the rest of the class. Isn't it enough said teacher has to plan, teach, grade, reteach and counsel kids about their performance in class. I think Gene Roddenberry or Spock or the writer said it best in one of the Star Trek movies.
    "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Of course this was in reference to lives being saved but who is to say that a better education is not saving lives?
     
  22. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    564

    Nov 15, 2014

    Uh, you do get that I wouldn't actually threaten to cut off their arm, don't you?

    I would ask MYSELF how I expected a student to act under those consequences. Then decide how to approach the student's behavior from there.
     
  23. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,013
    Likes Received:
    472

    Nov 15, 2014

    These issues of when consequences are appropriate are well researched in Fred Jones's Tools For Teaching program. I agree with him that the best form of classroom management is to structure a class in such a way to prevent as many behavior problems from occurring in the first place. I also agree that having a positive "relationship"(not his word, but I forget the exact term) with students can prevent many behavior problems.

    Then, he does have a whole chapter of how to deal with the most severe behavior problems. It is pure genius and works better than anything else I have tried. It is a positive intervention and not one of consequences. He does use consequences some in his program, but it is only a small part of his program. I think this is as close as I see to a behavior program that works that uses minimal consequences.
     
  24. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    40

    Nov 15, 2014

    My personal opinion is this:

    My job is to educate and protect the learning environment. The second a student disrupts my learning environment, there is a consequence. Granted they are "minor" consequences: marking their behavior log, isolation in the room, silent lunch, sent to a buddy teacher's room, etc. Last resort is office referral. I have stated to my students: my job is to educate you and protect your learning environment. A lot of kids roll their eyes at the "teacher imposed consequences" so I tell them: it's not my job to discipline you, it's my job to educate you and protect your learning environment. Yes, I give immediate consequences for you disrupting the learning environment, but the real consequences happen at home. I arrive at this position first and foremost as a mother myself, and I teach from a parent's perspective as I was a parent before I became a teacher. As a mom, when my child acts out or inappropriately it is NOT HIS TEACHER'S FAULT, it is HIS FAULT, and it reflects poorly not on the teacher, but ON MY PARENTING ABILTIES. If one of my son's goes into the classroom and embarrasses me and makes me look like I don't know how to raise my children, there will be stiff consequences at home.

    I never see misbehavior as a teacher's fault, I always see it as parenting issue. My own son was misbehaved in his Kindergarten year (the same year I was an intern), and continued misbehaving in 1st grade. After I imposed a strict, predictable consequence system for misbehavior AT HOME, his behavior is almost perfect in 2nd grade. As the parent, I can really dictate consequences that will deter his misbehavior. For example, I can restrict activities that he finds enjoyable that his teacher cannot.

    According to my own personal study, when children know their parents won't tolerate misbehavior at school, the behavior dramatically improves.

    And you can take that to your professor.
     
  25. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,134
    Likes Received:
    141

    Nov 15, 2014

    Yep. His first work, Positive Classroom Discipline, is somewhat an oxymoron for some. Jones goes on to note if you ask people on the street to define discipline most will say, "Discipline? That's when you punish someone for ______." What separates Jones' methods from many others is recurring theme the most effective management system in any classroom, bar none, is the teacher. Most other programs don't deal with teacher skills choosing, instead, to give the teacher external things to manipulate, give out, take away, send to someone else most of which have a limited success rate but we do them anyway.
     
  26. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 16, 2014

    I got that it was hypothetical, but I'm saying that's what I expected to happen if we had to go that far to get kids to behave.
     
  27. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 16, 2014

    You can attempt to deter misbehavior with those consequences, but you cannot guarantee that is the solution to the problem.

    I haven't been a teacher yet, but as of now I'm not personally in favor of getting on the phone or e-mail and whining to the parents about every misbehavior problem. Many parents are either never home to deal with it or their kids are just good at convincing their parents that it wasn't really their fault or that the teacher exaggerated.

    I also would like to think I have more in my toolkit to rely on besides the "I better behave or else he'll tell my parents and they'll paddle me or take away my video games when I get home" respect to rely on in my classroom.

    That's not to say that the parents are not helpful in coming up with solutions to behavior problems, but if I have to count on that, I'm rather worried.
     
  28. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    40

    Nov 16, 2014

    Firstly, I never said I email/phone parents about every behavior problem. In fact, I rarely have to phone or email. This is because of the behavior log that parents look at nightly and sign over the weekend. (It's not just a behavior log, in fact is called "Weekly Log" and students write their homework on there, I document if a student fails to turn in homework, and I also have a place to document behavior on there.)

    I am going to assume you are not a parent.

    A parent, a good parent should I say, WANTS to know what is going on. I expect it as a parent, therefore I operate under the assumption that my students' parents want to know what is going on with their kids. These are their babies, and it is my job to remain in communication with them. Just as my precious Adam is MY BABY and I WANT to know what is going on with him in the classroom: his grades, his work habits, his behavior, etc. I know his behavior is a direct reflection on my parenting abilities, therefore I want to immediately address and correct any issues. I wasn't always this invested, but after being mortified by his behavior in Kindergarten--I adapted and grew up a little bit. So glad I adopted my behavior system at home because now I don't have to gawk at notes home in shame! I don't get them anymore!

    With that said, as a teacher I don't call home, but rarely. I document any and all classroom imposed consequences on a behavior log, which parents sign over the weekend. Some people might find this to be too meticulous, but as I said I am a mother first and foremost and I developed this line of communication from what I deem appropriate as a parent. I communicate in this way because it is what I expect as a parent. And guess what has happened? I rarely sign logs too for behavior anymore. I assume this to be because parents are looking for the logs and kids know their parents will find out if they misbehave, therefore they don't do it. In the beginning, this wasn't so, until it became readily apparent that I consistently follow and implement my classroom management plan and that all infractions are documented.

    For the record, my students' parents love it, and are thankful for the constant communication via the log.

    In the cases that warrant calls home, like I said few and far between, I do that as well. Most behavioral infractions do not require a phone call home, nor do I have the time to devote to a series of phone calls. On average, I would say I pick up the phone 3 times a week out of 60 kids, if that.


    You are obviously free to develop any system you want. If you had read my response, there is a behavior mgmt. system in place, and the students know that there are consequences imposed in the classroom for their behavior. But you as well as I know that as a teacher, you are limited to things such as: silent lunch, detention, loss of recess (in lower grades). Parents have the real control, as should be.

    I have never, ever had a parent complain about my classroom and my principal said "I could stay in your room all day, are they always this quiet?" Yes, yes they are, NOW that I've established my authority and they know the deal.

    As far as uninvolved parents, the key is to make them involved. I immediately establish communication with ALL parents at the beginning of the year. My strategy is to establish rapport immediately, making them feel like I regard them as pivotally important to the success of their child. I also call home a lot in the beginning of the year to rave about their children. This immediately sets the tone of a caring teacher who wants the best for their children. I also set the tone with the weekly log giving them pretty much the same rundown as you: I am a mom, I know you want to know just like I do. I want to know when my child acts inappropriately in public because it reflects on me, so that is why I have this log so that you can address it immediately should it occur... yada yada."

    I have found they really like it when you make them feel important and vital to the classroom, the key to the classroom's success. I even tell my students that their parents are my boss, and they expect a classroom that is conducive to learning, so that is what it will be. And I have found when I really hammer home "Mom first, my classroom expectations derive from my parenting mantra" it immediately breaks any walls that parents may put up.
     
  29. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,334
    Likes Received:
    976

    Nov 16, 2014

    I don't know any teachers who "whine" to parents. They INFORM them of what is going on. Their parents are not the boss. They can not tell teachers what to do. That is pure idiocy. They are the bosses at home and need to take charge of the kids at home so they come to school ready to learn. Parents can't even manage that how can they manage MY CLASSROOM??????? Seriously, you need to get a clue.
     
  30. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    986

    Nov 16, 2014

    Never underestimate the power of calling a parent. First of all, they are in charge of the child for 18 hours, you only have them for about 6. They need to know and most of the time want to know what is going on.
    Sure, some parents think that 'he's your problem for 6 hours, so fix it', but most of them don't have that attitude. I think the big problem is that parents don't know how to parent, so a teacher calling home and 'whining' (as you said) to the parents doesn't fix the problem. Without over stepping your boundaries, you can make suggestions on how to continue your discipline plan at home.

    Also, calling a parent with a big problem, that has escalated over the past 3-4 weeks will sure to have the parent asking: Why haven't you called me before????
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. 99 percent,
  2. Kelster95,
  3. MissCeliaB,
  4. Backroads
Total: 354 (members: 8, guests: 331, robots: 15)
test