PE teacher punishing class

Discussion in 'General Education' started by TerriInCa, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. TerriInCa

    TerriInCa Companion

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    So this week the PE teacher where I work got upset with my class for not listening.

    He took them to a park 2 blocks away (this is done often and is nice for our students).

    They didn't follow his rules of walking quietly in to 2 lines and holding hands.

    So he punished the class by making them all write "I will walk quietly in 2 lines in PE class" front and back. :eek: and get parent signatures.

    I only had them do 1 side of the page.

    He assigned the same punishment to the 1st grade class too!

    We both weren't happy about it.

    Sorry just venting.:thanks:
     
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  3. TamaraF

    TamaraF Companion

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    Way to make them hate PE class!! That seems a bit excessive. What did the parents say?
     
  4. MissD59

    MissD59 Comrade

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    Not an appropriate punishment, IMHO. All that will do is make the students learn that writing can be used as punishment. At such a young age, we should be teaching our children to learn to love writing, not loathe it.

    Not to mention the obvious fact that many times, it is difficult for a child that age to copy things, let alone fill a whole page front and back with the same sentence.

    I thought we were past the whole forcing students to copy sentences over and over as punishment? I suppose I was wrong. I don't blame you for venting one bit.
     
  5. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Why did you change his punishment? While I don't agree at all with his method, it was his choice to make it. You referred to the class as "your" class, but really it's "his" class too and he has just as much authority and decision-making power as you do. I think that you have undermined his authority, and I don't think you should have done that. To me, it would have been better if you had shown him some professional courtesy and gone to him and asked him to revise his punishment.
     
  6. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I have to agree with Caesar. If I gave a punishment, even if it was a poor one, if someone were to tell my students that that punishment doesn't need to be carried out, I would be very ****** with that teacher.

    Students need to learn that they must respect authority figures consistently. They shouldn't learn that they may be able to wriggle out of punishments by complaining about a punishment. You may have just elicited the notion that if they complain to other teachers about another teacher, that they can turn one against another.
     
  7. smurfette

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    I think the appropriate consequence is not to take your kids to the park and make them do PE at school, if they can't walk there safely. Maybe you could suggest that. In a lot of places, you can't make kids write sentences as punishment.

    I'm not a big fan of the punishment he assigned, but I agree you should have gone to him and worked with him on this. Since you've already taken part of his punishment away, maybe you can tell the class that instead of the second page, you are going to ask the PE teacher not to take them to the park. That way, you are presenting a united front in the discipline arena.
     
  8. TeacherNY

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    I also don't think it was an appropriate punishment. Did the students have to do this writing punishment during your class time or at home? If you had to waste instruction time while the students did this then I think you had a right to change the assignment. If they had to do it at home then I would have not changed it.
     
  9. Resentful

    Resentful Rookie

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    It sounds like a good punishment to me. They need to learn gym is a privilege. As adults, we don't get a free gym pass or instructor (gym teacher). The district my DH went to school in for elem, they didn't have an indoor gym. Once a week, they would get on a school bus and go to a neighboring school for pe. The children should be grateful they have a gym and a park so close to them. If they can't act right, they shouldn't be allowed to use it that day.
     
  10. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Aren't we being a bit dramatic here? Copying a sentence 50-100x has nothing to do with writing, just as having to run laps has nothing to do with whether or not someone will enjoy physical activity. It's a "punishment", one that I wouldn't personally do (the parent signature thing seems excessive; involving the parents seems to only open yourself up to hassles FROM the parents).

    I do agree though, with everyone saying that you shouldn't undermine the other teacher's efforts. I wouldn't be happy about that if I were that teacher.
     
  11. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    So wouldn't a appropriate punishment be to NOT go to the park anymore? What does writing have to do with misbehaving? It will just make them hate writing.
     
  12. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    Was it on the way when they were misbehaving? Then the natural consequence would have been to turn around right away, back to school, given them the discussion that if they can't handle it, they can stay at school, and then given them another PE activity to do.

    Easy. If it was on the way back to school, then again, give them the discussion that their behavior proved that perhaps they are not ready to go back again and that they would have to earn that privilidge back again.
     
  13. thirdgradebuzz

    thirdgradebuzz Comrade

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    I think 50-100 times was a bit excessive for second graders, but I'm not on the bandwagon that it will make them hate writing. I think making them write it say, ten times, may have been alright. Not the smartest assignment in the world, but I don't think it would have killed the love of writing. Or, drawing a picture of how they are supposed to walk to the park and writing a sentence explaining the proper behavior would have been much more appropriate if the teacher wanted to make a written assignment out of the consequence.

    I do think that changing the assignment undermined the authority of the PE teacher. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the consequence, it was of no harm to the students to carry it out. If their parent did not want the child to do the assignment, that is up to them to take up with the PE teacher and/or admin as they see fit.
     
  14. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    He needs to dish the punishments out in his own class, on his own time.
     
  15. FarFromHome

    FarFromHome Connoisseur

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    While I wouldn't have done that punishment, I also don't think you should have changed it. That undermines the teacher's authority. If I gave a class a punishment, I would be upset if the teacher changed it. It could be a big safety problem if the students aren't listening when walking to the park.

    I've been both a classroom teacher and resource teacher. As a classroom teacher, I would have talked with my kids about the appropriate way to walk to the park. Even though I don't agree with the punishment, I wouldn't say anything or change the punishment for the kids. It sounds like they're already having trouble listening to the teacher, and it might make it worse now that they know you don't agree with him.

    It can be really tough as a resource teacher when you don't see the kids as often. It really helps when the classroom teachers help support what we do. If you don't agree with it, I would go and talk with the PE teacher. Talk with him about what kind of punishments you think would be appropriate for second grade.
     
  16. ll1301

    ll1301 Rookie

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    Students should NEVER have writing as a punishment. They are supposed to enjoy writing and learn to love it. Reading or writing thins over and over are not appropriate forms of punishment in my opinion. It will make them resent writing, and see writing as a "bad" or not enjoyable activity.
     
  17. ll1301

    ll1301 Rookie

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    I think taking recess away is a better punishment. They should not be punished with writing, which is a skill we teachers are trying to TEACH them to master, and to enjoy. It doesn't make sense. Recess is more valuable to them at this age. Take minutes off their recess.
     
  18. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Where does the OP say that the punishment was meant to be done during the OP's class?
     
  19. Shanoo

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    We (as a department) gave writing as a punishment just last week. I teach French Immersion, where students are required to speak French in class - to their teachers as well as their fellow classmates. After a number of warnings, we had two students who continued to speak English in class. So, as a department, we decided to have them write a letter to their parents explaining why they were continually not following the rules. All members of the department then signed the letter and they were mailed to the students' homes.

    The reasoning for it? We're hoping that having to explain to their parents what they did, why they did it and what they're going to do to correct it will eventually sink in. And, we're hoping that, coming from their kids, it will mean more to the parents. I'm assuming that, while copying lines that much is a bit excessive, the *spirit* of the consequence given by the PE teacher was the same.
     
  20. John Lee

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    That's ridiculous though. That's like saying you will learn to dislike basketball because you make them run laps (as punishment). All it will do is make them hate the thing they are doing: writing standards.

    As someone who wrote THOUSANDS of standards ("I must learn to accept my responsibilities."), all it was was me writing: I I I I I I I I... all the way down the page, must must must must must must, learn learn learn learn learn... I don't know if it helped me accept my responsibilities :p, but it certainly didn't cause some sort of phobia toward WRITING.

    Writing is an expression of thought. Students won't hate writing because they had to write standards.
     
  21. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    The OP changed how many sentences they had to do - I assume that was in her class.
     
  22. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    Wouldn't push ups be a more appropriate punishment for PE? That's what my son's karate teacher makes them do. :) :) :)
     
  23. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    I think the poster was wrong to change the punishment. I don't have the power to change another teacher's punishment even if I don't agree with it. And as for those saying what this PE teacher should or shouldn't do, we are not in his class. We have not seen what type of punishment was used previously and we don't have the privilege of knowing what they have done/not done in the past.
     
  24. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    It sounds more like the PE teacher had them do it for homework.
     
  25. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

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    Interesting when things go awry blame is focused on the students. Is there a chance, even slight, that the PE teacher needs to take an introspective look at his rules and routines (line-up) and shore up these before transferring mistakes in management to the kids?

    If writing needs to be done perhaps the PE teacher could sit down and in retrospect jot down what went wrong and ideas on how to correct it in the future. Sharing ideas with colleagues could also help.
     
  26. TerriInCa

    TerriInCa Companion

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    It was my responsibility to assign it. He didn't tell the kids they were going to do it.

    It was my responsibility to have them do it, collect it and turn them into him. It was paper from my classroom budget, not his.

    So I felt I could make them write it 15 times instead of 30.

    I felt since he made me do most of the management of the work, I could adjust it.

    My personal feelings on the issue. Sorry if you all disagree.

    Push-ups would have been more appropriate and on his time instead of mine.
     
  27. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

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    Did the kids know that he wanted 30 times and you made it 15? If so, then I think it was not good to change it. But it sounds like you were the one to assign it so I am assuming they never knew it was to be 30 times. That seems better because you are not undermining him in front of the kids.
     
  28. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    In that case, since he didn't deliver the punishment himself, and foisted it onto you, that makes more sense to change it as you want. (i.e. the kids aren't hearing two different things from two different teachers) Again, still would probably be a better idea to discuss it with him first though, but I think you made a reasonable decision.
     
  29. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    No. It is not an appropriate punishment. The largest reason is because he punished everyone in the class, and I don't believe for a second that it was everyone in the class. If all the students were behaving would it be okay to punish them?--Of course not! So if innocent Susie and innocent Joe are angels, why would it be okay that they have to write all of that and have their parents sign it? Forcing a child who did nothing wrong to get punished sends the wrong message. If you are good, you can still get punished if others aren't. It decreases a child who has the courage to not join the crowd to behave appropriately.

    I think that taking off a class point for a privilege or something is okay. However making all children in a group get a negative note signed by their parents--that is going too far, and should be reserved for only the students who earned it. If lots of students are misbehaving, than the teacher should start focusing on the few that are good and see that they don't get punished. If the class is less than 30 than I think this can be done fairly well.

    I do agree with Caesar that in the mean time you should respect the PE teacher's authority and follow through with the consequence given. Although, I can understand not wanting to give the entire assignment out. What an unfortunate situation for you and your students to have to put up with!
     
  30. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    If you disagreed with the punishment, why did you go along with it? How did he "make you" manage his punishment? Why didn't you just tell the gym teacher that you didn't agree with that particular method, so he should administer the punishment on his own?
     
  31. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    I don't think the PE teacher should have dumped his problems on you. If the kids didn't behave for him, and he decided on a punishment, he should've administered it. First of all it would have been done the way he wanted it, and second, why should another teacher do his work? If the kids act up during this punishment because they feel it's unfair or whatever, now you're going to have to deal with it, and maybe even assign another consequence.
    This took time out of your class, which is not fair to you.

    I have never ever asked another teacher to ensure my consequence was implemented.
    during student teaching a teacher, who had my first period right before lunch agreed to hold them for me. They have earned 5 minutes extra time after class. He would not let them go to lunch, and i made sure I was there within 1 minute of the bell to ensure that I implement the consequence and not make him do my work.
     
  32. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    If the teacher made them do push-ups, then we would have members here claiming that will make them hate exercise because it was used as "punishment". There were would also be some claiming it was akin to abuse because it was physical punishment. :rolleyes:

    Any time someone mentions the use of a writing assignment (of any kind) as punishment, we see the same cries lamenting "It will make them hate writing". No, it doesn't. As one poster said, it may make them hate what they are doing right then and might even make them dislike the teacher, but it will not forever kill their love of writing.

    As for the punishment itself, I don't think 30 (one page, front and back) is excessive for 2nd grade. It is a lot for that age, but I still think it is appropriate. I had a second grade teacher who made a classmate write her name 1,000 times because she forgot to put it on a paper she handed in. THAT was excessive, but it still didn't kill the classmate's "love of writing". It DID make the classmate really dislike that particular teacher and she said she hated her name when she got done (she had a short first name but a fairly long last name).

    In this case, I think the amount assigned was acceptable. Personally, I would have found a different punishment, but at this age, kids need simple instructions and learn from repetition. Rote writing is not designed to make someone hate writing; it is designed to emphasize and reinforce a specific rule or action (most of the time). While this may not have been the best choice of discipline, I think it would be effective.

    I do agree, though, that the PE teacher should have been the one to enforce the punishment. The best approach would have been to have the kids do the writing assignment during the next class. That way, he is the one enforcing the lack of behavior in his class and also taking responsibility for ensuring the discipline is carried through. MY approach would have been spending the next class making the kids practice walking in two lines around the gym until they did it correctly. This would still give them some exercise and movement, but would take away they fun stuff they were expecting to do. Since he assigned the writing, he could have done both; have the students write the sentences at the beginning of the next class, then use the rest of the time practicing walking in lines correctly. That would (hopefully) reinforce the correct behavior enough to prevent it from being a problem again in the future.
     
  33. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    I agree with this totally. Sometimes I have to slow down and find the real causes and focus on the problem causers and not the group. btw I have classroom teachers ask me to do the punishment often. I do it my way when they do. I do not punish kids with exercise.
     
  34. Cerek

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    What punishments or consequences do you usually use, Stephen? What consequence(s) would you have given in this situation?
     
  35. applecore

    applecore Devotee

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    He needs to think about his class management as well as reevaulate his consequences. The punishment did not match the age development nor the actions of the students. And he basically left the consequence for you to handle, and that's not okay. Missing the chance to go to the park next time would have been more appropriate.
     
  36. John Lee

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    Obviously it makes a difference that the PE teacher made me administer his/her punishment. I don't know why the OP chose to leave that little detail out.
     
  37. EdEd

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    A few thoughts:

    1. Is anyone supporting their statements for or against writing-as-punishment with anything but personal anecdote or personal reasoning?

    2. If any teacher wants another teacher to administer their punishment, they should ask permission as opposed to simply telling the teacher to do so.

    3. I get politics and seniority, so I could see you wanting to go along with the PE teacher if he's been there a while and you don't want to rock the boat. If it's a one-time thing I can see going along with it. Certainly not a regular basis, particularly because of the parent signatures - that would get really cumbersome really quickly.
     
  38. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    It is hard for me to imagine walking a large class away from school to have PE somewhere. The fear of God would be in them before the start and I would probably be holding the hands of any I DID not trust. I find in my classes they WANT to play and 5 minutes of TO usually has them ready to behave. I HATE lines and cannot remember giving them in years and years.
     
  39. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    Thank you. I hate when teachers undermine other teachers like this. I am a BIG believer is supporting my fellow teachers and presenting a united front infront of the kids even when I may not agree with the teacher's actions. If you don't agree with another teacher's actions, then hash it out with them first. I would never change another teacher's punishment as I would be really upset if someone did that to me.

    I also hate when I hear a teacher tell a child not to listen or follow the directions of another teacher or that another teacher was "wrong." The other day, I heard a teacher tell a child who was put out of class by another teacher, that they didn't think the child was in the wrong this time and that the teacher was on the "child's side." I was thinking, what the ... !?!?

    Also, I don't mind helping other teachers punish their class every now and then. For example, if another teacher asks me to hold my last period for detention after school, then I will do it as long as the teacher comes to my room to assist as soon as the bell rings. I don't want to do it everyday, but I don't mind every now and then.
     
  40. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    He should not have left the punishment for you to enforce. Period. You wouldn't send your kids to his class and ask him to punish them for not doing their homework.

    Next time, don't allow yourself to be steamrolled. Tell him, "I am sorry the children didn't behave for you. As their classroom teacher, I will talk to them about the importance of listening to ALL of their teachers. If you wish to use writing sentences as a punishment, I will have the children bring paper and pencils to your class next time. You might want to contact their parents and let them know what is going on-here is a list of their contact information."

    Then move on. His problem, his solution, his time.
     
  41. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    Oh, and let's be honest-this punishment is not WRITING. It's copying. They aren't going to hate writing as in creating and composing their own sentences. They will hate the physical process of putting pencil to paper.
     

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