PBIS

Discussion in 'General Education' started by YoungTeacherGuy, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Is your school involved in PBIS? If so, to what extent? How's the buy in from teachers, students, and parents?

    Just curious how other districts are doing in terms of PBIS.
     
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  3. otterpop

    otterpop Phenom

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    My current school does not, but the school I student taught at did. I see a lot of bad reviews of PBIS on here, but at the schools where I've seen it used (at least two), it's been fairly successful. Staff and students liked it, and it was no big deal in its implementation. Basically it was run in addition to what classroom management systems teachers were already using, not instead of. Teachers were able to have consequences and rules of their own choosing, but they also gave out tickets for good behavior, especially at recess and lunch.

    Where I student taught, they had assemblies once a month. Teachers chose goals for their classes for the month. For example: This month, we will have a clean classroom floor at the end of at least 15 school days; we will use please and thank you when talking to each other. Sometimes it was very measurable, sometimes it was more subjective. Classes who met their goal were able to spin a wheel for a prize, such as: wear a hat day, bubble gum in class, pajama day. These assemblies were also a time for students-of-the-month to be recognized. Sometimes student leaders in the older grades acted out short plays on character skills such as being kind to others or not bullying. They were fun and positive assemblies.
     
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  4. Sab

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    It is, as was the last school I did my student teaching at. I feel like PBIS is pretty vague and can be implemented in different ways...I do believe students need to be explicitly taught how to behave appropriately and all that. I don't believe in rewarding students for doing what they're expected to do. I believe in holding all students to high expectations and think that rewarding them for basic appropriate behavior undermines that and can be detrimental to their self-esteem the same way other meaningless praise can.
    I also don't believe in bribing students to behave or negotiating with them in an attempt to get them to behave well. They should know they're expected to behave appropriately, and if not, there will be a consequence. So I basically choose not to hand out the "reward bucks" the school uses in my own class, though students know they can trade unused bathroom passes in for them at the end of the quarter. Other teachers may use them more, but that's up to them.
     
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  5. waterfall

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    All of the schools I've ever worked in (including the 10 or so schools I did field placements in during college) have been PBIS schools. I didn't realize it was an option to not do PBIS until I read about it being "new" to some schools on here.

    I started at my current school 5 years ago. We had the supposed "common language" for behavior expectations, but over the past several years we've gotten further and further away from that in favor of giving each teacher freedom to do their own thing. I can see wanting to do that as a classroom teacher, but as someone who works with multiple grade levels, it's difficult when everyone is not on the same page. We used to have a "paw" system that we used for rewards. Kids would turn them in for water bottles, t shirts, etc. The prizes were the same every year and the kids didn't seem phased by that at all. I honestly was very (pleasantly) surprised by how much kids bought into wanting to get the paws, even in the intermediate grades.

    The great majority of teachers did use the paws, but there wasn't a lot of buy in for the system as a whole. We have tons and tons of severe behaviors and we keep hearing about how consequences aren't effective. We have a new P and AP this year and teachers were really hoping that would change. One of the first things our new P said was that research shows consequences don't change behavior.

    We have new "common language" and "common expectations" this year and our admin has been making sure it's been enforced across the building. I honestly can't believe the difference it's made already. I'm certainly not complaining, but especially given the severity of our behavior problems before, I can't believe how well the kids are buying into it especially because there aren't really consequences in place to keep them from not following the expectations. I've always taught with my door closed because the hallway has always been a zoo, but this year it is truly silent. We're only 3 weeks in, so I'm wondering if we'll see more issues later as kids realize there isn't really anything keeping them from doing whatever they want. We've also switched from "paws" to "tickets"- kids earn the tickets and then there is a drawing each Friday with one winner from each class. This means the average kid will win 1 time per year (if that)- I'm also wondering if the excitement for the tickets/drawings will wear off once the kids realize the prizes aren't guaranteed like they were before.
     
  6. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    If teachers did not like it they probably didn't buy into it making it a system that wasn't really implemented.
     
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  7. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    I have seen the system implemented both positively and negatively.
    The entire staff must buy in to help the program succeed. Some teachers react negatively because they feel they must change classroom behavior plans that have worked for them. Many administrators seem to think the plan is their opportunity to shove discipline problems on the teachers. PBIS does not solve all woes, very often it just adds too many layers of interventions before actually dealing with a definite problem.
     
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  8. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Setting expectations, creating a school culture to meet expectations, supporting kids to meet those expectations all sound good to me.

    Its sad to know that sometimes adults can be a bigger impediment to success than students. I realize we are all overburdened by inititives that come and go, but PBSIS is an easy thing to do.
     
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  9. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    If an entire school is moving toward a common theme how else would you expect me to answer this question?
     
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  10. EdEd

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    I'd make the case that PBIS would then just be a simpler transition for the teacher, but still important as it's not just about the underlying principles but coordinating the specifics across the school - for example, how do bus drivers and cafeteria workers respond to behavioral incidents? How do administrators respond to escalated classroom behavioral incidents? Somehow these things need to be coordinated. PBIS isn't the only way to do it, but simply having a great classroom-level system doesn't do it either.
     
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  11. Backroads

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    We just started it. I have heard stories (one of my friends uses it at her school and they have to have parent volunteers all the time watching the kids and handing out tickets just to stay "consistent" on awarding good behaviors), but I'm trying to be positive.

    All we have done so far is set up very specific expectations for everywhere in the school. I'm just fine with this.

    But I don't think I could handle having to stop my lesson just to hand out tickets or buy prizes I can't afford.
     
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  12. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Sounds as though different school systems experience varying levels of success, owing to the way PBIS is implemented.

    I've seen PBIS used to shower proper behavior with rewards while negative behavior is either ignored or pacified with rewards. I suppose consequences were being put on a back shelf that teachers and administrators could focus more time begging wayward children to control themselves to even the slightest degree. "Have some candy because you did not hit anyone today!" is the direction I've seen PBIS lead us. On paper, administrators can claim discipline is improved, but only because less is being documented. All of which is to say I doubt I've ever seen PBIS (or any discipline system) implemented well.

    I cannot fathom children saying please and thank you. Must be nice to work someplace like that.
     
  13. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    PBSIS is just a tiered system for social and emotional learning.

    For example, I heard a number of things above about prizes and rewards. That's not a requirement.

    Here is our state initiative website: http://www.njpbs.org/index.html
     
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  14. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    That is common place in our local schools. Even those students called "entitled" or "problems" use manners most of the time.

    The funny thing is no matter how good a school is and how good the kids are, the negative is the focus and always extremely bad. The difference is in some schools bad is being assaulted on a steady basis and in another the horrid students forgot to write their name on the paper.
     
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  15. AlwaysAttend

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    So schools should function like the military?
     
  16. AlwaysAttend

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    Should we have them clean the floor with toothbrushes when they don't meet those expectations? Last I checked, that's corporal punishment.
     
  17. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    I disagree. There's a price to pay for everything. Sometimes the price is cheap, like everyone adopting a common theme and language. Other times, the price is too high.
     
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  18. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    That would be more effective and yield better fruit than what we have now.
     
  19. AlwaysAttend

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    What's wrong with the fruit we produce now? Are todays children any worse academically than the students we produced 50 years ago or are they just assessed differently? (I honestly don't know enough to answer this).

    Or are you speaking behaviorally? That problem is more attributable to parenting than school discipline.
     
  20. tchr4vr

    tchr4vr Comrade

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    Military discipline might be good. Not in all cases, but a kid who vandalizes the school should be expected to clean it off and make the repairs. I have yet to see PBIS work well. I believe we need to have expectations, but at the high school level, kids should know that the expectation is to come to class and behave appropriately.
     
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  21. AlwaysAttend

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    Other countries are setting the bar higher on scoring well on tests. These students don't always do well in their new environment. There have been articles written about these students seeking out professional companies to edit or write their papers.

    There have also been articles written about a lack of creativity and that China was actually looking to the American education system to foster this skill.

    No country is perfect in how it prepares and there are positives and negatives with every solution.
     
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  22. AlwaysAttend

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    Should know and actually understand are two different things.

    The types of problems you see in school are equated to the population you teach. I work in an upper middle class district at this time and the bathroom sink was ripped off the wall at least 4 times last year. Clearly they should know that's wrong, but do they understand that maintainace will need to repair this and the taxpayers will need to fund the repairs?

    This has nothing to do with PBSIS.
     
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  23. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    China has been trying to Americanize its education system for decades as, while they certainly testing high, the results don't match the efforts. Compare runner-up Finland and their educational values.

    China has to fight thousands of years of culture. We don't have that.
     
  24. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    I've never worked in a US school so my viewpoint may be limited, but if I was to theorize about what might be worth changing, it wouldn't be militarizing schools. I would say it might be worth considering less standardized tests, less scripted curriculum and ensuring that teacher evaluations are not tied to things like test scores.
     
  25. AlwaysAttend

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    I've worked in 3 different places, none had scripted curriculums. School districts don't want to pay for them. Most pay their teachers to write curriculum in my area.

    It's hard to say we need less standardized tests. They take it once per year in most grade levels. They don't force you to teach to it, I've never worked in a school that did. Just a few weeks of questions formatted like they might see and teaching how to use testing tools.
     
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  26. Always__Learning

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    As I said, "worth considering." While you may not work in a state that uses scripted curriculum, it seems far more common in the US that in other nations that score higher. I really can't imagine why standardized testing would need to happen once per year. Moreover, in some states scores on standaridzed tests impact things like teacher evaluations and salaries so teachers do feel pressured to "teach to it". So again, not be all and end all, but "worth considering."
     
  27. AlwaysAttend

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    It allows us to determine what schools/states prepare students better than others as education decisions are made at the local level in most cases.
     
  28. Always__Learning

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    AlwaysAttend, I actually don't believe in comparing schools/states to each other. I do believe in comparing schools to a standard we want schools to achieve. I think that standardized tests are necessary to evaluate schools. I am not convinced that justifies annual tests. In most Canadian provinces, students participate in standardized tests a few times during their K-12 education rather than annually and I do think that is sufficient to evaluate schools.
     
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  29. Preschool0929

    Preschool0929 Cohort

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    I teach in a PBIS school. I was very anti-PBIS before starting at my current school. Mostly because I don't believe in extrensic rewards, treasure box, etc.. However, I have to say, the way PBIS is done at my school is fantastic. I completely love it, and our hard Title 1 population is super well behaved (for the most part). It helps that my school is brand new (built last year), so we set the stage for all structures, behavior expectations, etc.. Teachers had no choice but to "buy in", so that helps.

    Every classroom is required to do class dojo and a clip chart system (ok, i don't love that part). Each grade level has a point goal for students that they aim to earn each week. Teachers decide individually what students can do with their points (class parties, eat lunch with the teacher, etc..) School wide, we do "All green, all the time" parties for kids that have their clips on green every day, 1x/quarter. All the teachers stand in the hallways with music instruments and clap, yell, and cheer for the kiddos as they walk down the hall to get their treat (which varies, sometimes its just a snack, sometimes it's time in the gym, a dance party in the cafeteria, etc..) For kids that don't get to go to the party, they have to participate in a "re-teach". So, not focusing on punishment, but more just sitting down and re-teaching whatever behavior they had difficulty with.

    We have common structures and rules for hallway behavior, restroom & cafeteria behavior, etc.. Teachers are required to turn in their behavior data every month. Our PBIS coach goes into classrooms that are having less than 80% of students on green during the week and helps the teacher with positive reinforcement, coaching on using the clip chart appropriately, etc..

    Anyways, I could go on and on, but really I love it. I know our teachers get bogged down with the data portion especially, BUT it helps everyone stay accountable so that teachers aren't just having kids clip down for nothing.
     
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  30. otterpop

    otterpop Phenom

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    WOAH. This seems like strategy overload! But it also sounds like a tight system that is getting good results. I'm glad you like it and it's working for your school. It sounds very positive and I bet the kids like it.
     
  31. otterpop

    otterpop Phenom

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    [​IMG]
     
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  32. AlwaysAttend

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    So we should punish students based on the bad parenting they may recieve? Society already seems to do a good job with that.
     
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  33. AlwaysAttend

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    We do measure to a common standard. From there we compare different populations to see how they do compared to their peers. Why do black children in title one schools do better in NJ than Mississippi? We can then examine other data such as class size, per pupil spending, etc. then identify trends, see if they can be corrected, changed, etc. testing in and of itself is not a bad thing.

    I will agree that basing teacher pay on it is stupid. Finding ways to ensure student growth is not. Key there is growth not a magical achievement level that can't be reached.
     
  34. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    We have all signed a contract by paying taxes. That education isn't free by any means. We paid for it. We are owed it.

    Enter legislators who steal those tax dollars away for their backers and contributors. Education for the majority is fast becoming a pipe dream, as funding continues to decrease in the face of growing poverty and runaway crime.

    What you propose is a bit more hellish than the dystopian nightmare we are already rushing headlong into. Taking away children's only hope for a future by defunding education, then demand they prove themselves "worthy" of the education our government has stolen?

    That's a bit harsh.

    Myself, I'd prefer a mandatory death penalty for graft and political corruption. Now, that would take care of a lot of our problems in short order.

    You will be shocked to read such a suggestion, but the logic behind it questions why we may put a man to death for killing one person, while a corrupt politician will kill tens and hundreds of thousands, only to escape punishment altogether. There is no greater existential threat to the human race than corrupt politicians; they should be treated as such.

    My post veers away from PBIS, but then the suggestion to punish a hobbled society for being hobbled (and punished by the same people who hobbled that society, no less!) is a bit right-wing to go unchecked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  35. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    Always Attend, we simply have different philosophies on this which I imagine may reflect the difference in the systems in which we work. I do not see value in comparing students to other students. I see value in looking at how students and schools measure up to a standard. I don't think standards are magical achievement levels. I think they are goals that we can reasonably expect the majority of students educated in an effective system to reach. I also think we have adequate data on things like class size from meta-analysis from people like Hattie. I don't think we need to continue to use standardized tests to determine the impact of things like class size and per pupil spending.
     
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  36. AlwaysAttend

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    A visible learning fan?
     
  37. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    We do disagree but that's not a bad thing.

    You favor a criterian assessment rather than a normed assessment? What's the harm in using a test that does both? For example, let's say a student gets a question wrong. Maybe the student knew the information but got the question wrong anyway. You can make that determination if enough other students who you think knew the answer also got it wrong. You could determine that the question was worded poorly rather than the 40% of the population doesn't know something. You are just using a larger population sample than you normally would (within your class). We compare kids all the time. You compare reading levels to group children, pitch to determine where they stand in the choir, etc. This is just a greater scale.

    It's also a preparation for every other kind of test they will be judged on later in life. SAT, ACT, LSAT, MCAT, etc. all about comparing students.
     
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  38. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    I really don't compare students to each other. I compare them to a standard. It simply isn't how I approach my students or the assessment of their outcomes.

    Standardized assessments in Canada that are "high stakes" are criterion based. The goal is to get everyone to standard. We don't rank kids and in some cases we don't even grade them on standardized tests. They are scored as meeting the standard or not meeting the standard. Certainly if a large number of students get a question wrong, the testing team may look at the question for issues but this doesn't change that the test is formed around criteria.

    We also don't use SATs or ACTs in Canada. Some schools use the GMAT, some don't require it. Student get into post-secondary based on their classroom grades which are based on how they measure up to criteria. So yes the very small percentage of students who go to law school or medical school will write tests where they will be ranked, but that is a very small percentage of students (given that about 25% of Canadian students go to university as undergrads).
     
  39. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Did you just use a homophobic slur? Seriously? Get out of here with that nonsense.
     
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  40. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    This led me to google search the term.

    The ‘nance,’ or Nancy Boy, was a gay burlesque character from the 1930s who brought guffaws and belly laughs as he pranced about the stage, creating campy scenes and sketches of gay life. He put on an outrageous show and audiences loved him. In the late 1930s, New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, fearful of how the lurid burlesque shows would make his city look in the upcoming World’s Fair of 1939, cracked down on the houses.

    Part of LaGuardia’s anger was aimed at the Nance, whom critics said created audiences of lusty gay men having sex in the dark balconies of the burlesque emporiums. It was an outrage, the Mayor said, and police began swooping down on burlesque shows, closing many and forcing others to drop the nance act or greatly curb it.
     
  41. AlwaysAttend

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  42. Kat.

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    The military shouldn't even function like the military does:rofl:

    This thread makes me a bit nervous! This will be my first full year as the teacher and our school has decided to implement PBIS. We get a curriculum and everything. I'm all for having a school wide behavior system, but I'm also not a fan of giving kids candy because they acted like a decent human being.

    We will have "Pride Bucks" to hand out to students and we are required to do so. Specials teachers, grade level teachers, admin, SPED...everyone. Each grade level had to create a "menu" for what kids can use the pride bucks for, and it has to be the exact same across the grade level.

    The whole thing seems participation trophy-esque to me.
     
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  43. AlwaysAttend

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    It's just promoting a positive culture and positive behavior. It is rewarding kids for meeting expectations. It is a motivator.

    It's shouldn't be a participation trophy vecause that would mean you're also rewarding negative behavior. It's about getting everyone to the same expected level.

    I'll be the first to say the prize system isn't necessary though. You could accomplish the same if not more through recognition at assemblies.
     
  44. nstructor

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    You are definitely accurate.
     
  45. AlwaysAttend

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    Again, PBSIS is a philosophy. It's implemented differently everywhere. It would be like saying Readers and Writers Workshop is a bad system because you work in a district where they don't offer training and support. I would guess that the districts that buy the training and resources from TC would probably have a different opinion.
     
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  46. otterpop

    otterpop Phenom

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    I've never seen it as a racial issue. The schools I've seen it used at have had largely white, low income populations. Yeah, you could say it's holding low income kids to lower standards (although I disagree) because you're rewarding them for what they should already be doing, but the fact is that they're not doing it. So, knowing that kids are not behaving appropriately, you have two main choices. Crack down with really tough discipline, or start rewarding good behavior with the intention it will become the new normal. I think a mix of both is good. Even in the best reward system, there have got to be consistent consequences. But also, sometimes students get into a pattern of getting in trouble so often that it is their "normal" and they don't really care about consequences anymore. Having a positive goal to work towards gives them something to focus on, rather than just trying *not* to be bad.
     
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  47. AlwaysAttend

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    Aug 29, 2017

    You do realize they use PBSIS in upper middle class school districts too right? I'm talking 90% white english speaking students.
     
  48. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Aug 30, 2017

    My research shows something different for the reason PBIS was created. Please link information proving your assertion.
     
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  49. MetalTeacher

    MetalTeacher Companion

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    Aug 30, 2017

    I think so much of the backlash against PBIS either involves not understanding what it is, or having seen it implemented poorly in a very small sample size. At its core, it's having a system of school-wide behavior plans, procedures, and consequences that provide clear and consistent expectations for students, and having a tiered set of supports in place to deal with frequent problems, as well as taking data when problems occur to determine where and when these problems tend to occur. I have a hard time understanding how "consistent rules and consequences and knowledge of the conditions under which problems occur" could be construed as a bad thing, and there's certainly no lowering of standards or showering students with rewards for meeting basic expectations in the core requirements of PBIS. I'm not even sure how those became associated with it in the first place, because they're not part of it.
     
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  50. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Poor understanding and poor implementation of the system. Also, people who don't want to change from their current methods of dealing with student behavior need an excuse, oh, I mean reason, to justify not changing what they do.

    I equate some of the problems with educators not being educated. Just as many don't understand special education law and just parrot what they hear from others, so to do they parrot what they hear about PBIS. These preconceived or false notions are then the basis for their perception, and they look for things to support their belief.
     
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  51. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Aug 30, 2017

    Sadly, those awards have been associated with it.

    I am actually enjoying this thread and seeing a better understanding of what it's supposed to because hretofore I have had a terrible impression of PBIS--all based on horror stories I've been told of reward-based instruction and difficulties make the awards consistent and fair.

    Please be patient yet firm with me as I go through a paradigm shift here.
     

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