Pastor Sean Harris "punch them"

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by stephenpe, May 9, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,942
    Likes Received:
    174

    May 9, 2012

    I just watched an interview with this cretin. He said that he didnt really mean to punch them (his words) but to shove them. NC just passed another law outlawing gay marriage even though it was against the law. This stuff makes me sick. I have an ex-student who came out years ago and he is so upset about all this. He is a great kid, responsible and works hard at a good job. He does not understand the hate projected at people like himself. I think Edmund Burke was on to something when he said that" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing " This kid is not the evil one it is the hate mongers like this "pastor" exhorting his flock to commit violence on children. :mad:
     
  2.  
  3. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    all i know is that this pastor does not represent a huge majority of christians.
    as a christian and follower of Jesus i am called to love everybody the same, i think that these words of hate against homosexuals (or anyone) are contrarary to how Jesus wants us to live.

    Jesus hung out with the outcasts of his time - tax collectors, prostitutes, sinners, lepers
     
  4. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    I agree with both posts: see no contradiction at all.

    I am a fiscal, libertarian, and strict constructionist conservative; but I am not a social conservative, and it pains me when people paint conservatives and Christians with such a broad brush that they assume we would agree with people like this odious pastor.

    To be clear, I do not: not at all.
     
  5. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,934
    Likes Received:
    257

    May 9, 2012

    Equating someone who advocates violence with those who advocate defining marriage is part of why we can't have any valid discussions on moral issues in this country any more. All liberals want to murder babies and all conservatives want to beat up gays, right?
     
  6. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    i think both sides have it wrong..... as a christian i believe that the way Jesus wants us to live transcends conservative and liberal..... it is a call to live and love recklessly.
     
  7. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    :thumb:
    :thumb:
     
  8. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    I have to speak up because of my background. My father is a Baptist pastor, and I was born and raised and steeped in Baptist, Catholic, and Presbyterian traditions. I also have to speak up as someone who is gay, and no longer has a family because of it.

    I know that most Christians, would not equate their religion with those who advocate or inflict violence upon homosexuals, and do believe that they love everyone, no matter who they are.

    However these same Christians would probably not vote for a measure legalizing gay marriage. The reason? Because homosexuality is a sin/abomination/whatever.

    Today's culture hypermasculinizes men to a frightening degree. Believing or sharing the belief that homosexuality is a sin even among your own church community only adds fuel to the fire of those who would advocate or cause harm to the homosexual community.

    Obviously people see "sin" as a bad thing. Something to be avoided or hidden away from the eyes of children. That's why Christians don't want homosexuals to marry and be out in public showing off their relationships.

    In addition, there is already innate and cultural stigma attached to it. If you are a man, you are extremely fearful of appearing gay, and so you do anything you can to appear otherwise because of your insecurity. I think this is the real cause of the violence that occurs, but like I said, pre-existing beliefs of the dominant religion only justify and validate their actions.
     
  9. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    If you mean your last word, then this is quite a radical view, though one which has indeed been seen before - in various sorts of antinomianism, e.g.. Do you intend this as a radical view, or is this hyperbole (which is fine, of course)?
     
  10. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    not sure what your question is here lol
     
  11. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    I understand what you are saying.... some christians say 'love the sinner, hate the sin' when talking about homosexual people, but i believe that this doesn't work at all...
    I find this area very interesting and even though some christians do not stand for gay rights etc.... i do. I believe that oppresion of any kind is contrary to how God wants us to live.
     
  12. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    6

    May 9, 2012

    I have to ask what is wrong with the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin?
    I know many people who I enjoy, like, care about, but they do things that I don't agree with/don't like (a variety of things, nothing inparticular). What is wrong with that?
     
  13. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,942
    Likes Received:
    174

    May 9, 2012

    You see no connection to one exhorting violence toward gays and
    another saying gays cannot be married to each other. One is criminal and the other is just a basic human right. To marry the one you love. Your definition is a religious one. Your old testament also had some other interesting things to do but we rarely hear about that. I have a problem with anyone's faith telling our citizens how to act or live their life. People came to this country centuries ago to worship freely and be free.
    Oh yeah, they are free to marry just the opposite sex. I forgot. :dizzy:
     
  14. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,942
    Likes Received:
    174

    May 9, 2012

    double post sorry
     
  15. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    I dont think there is anything wrong with it in general, but i have seen that it doesnt work in relation to homosexual people......for homosexual people it is who they are not just what they do.
     
  16. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    6

    May 9, 2012

    Moral Direction needs to come from somewhere. The more we take God out of the equation in this country, the worse off the country seems to get.
     
  17. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    6

    May 9, 2012

    I guess that is part of what I see as the problem. I have never thought my sexuality defines me as a person. The fact that I am a man does more to define me than that. The fact that I believe in God does more to define me. Sexuality should not define you.
     
  18. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    yeah i know what you are sayin.... maybe i have that a little wrong, but i have definitely seen that 'love the sinner, hate the sin' doesnt work with homosexual ppl..

    i have also seen christian families totally cut off a homosexual person in their family and i do not have a clue how a family could do that, even if the believe it is wrong etc.
     
  19. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,067
    Likes Received:
    1,884

    May 9, 2012

    This makes me so incredibly sad. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how parents can feel this way towards their children.
     
  20. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    You are correct in saying that sexuality does not define someone. To me, it is a very small part of who I am. But it is part of who I am nonetheless, and while my sexuality may be a small part of who I am, the person I love is a large part of who I am. I want the freedom for us to be able to be recognized and accepted in society just like everyone else is.

    My parents grew up in the times where mixed race marriages were frowned upon, (I am the product of a mixed race relationship), and now they are accepted. I can only hope that homosexual relationships will reach the same acceptance.
     
  21. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    i think that one day they will reach the same acceptance.
     
  22. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    We have three gay staff members, quite openly so: that helps. We have had a gay-straight group for around 15 years: that helps. This is a liberal community: that helps (on this issue, anyway! lol).

    Not to claim that there is not private anguish about this matter - I am sure there is - but gay people, including students, seem very comfortable at my school, and I am proud of that.

    Again, for reference, I am politicially conservative, though not socially conservative, and not Christian.
     
  23. sizzla_222

    sizzla_222 Companion

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    that is cool. my aunt is a teacher in england and she is gay. She is elementary school, so i am not sure if her students know or not ( i am guessing they dont)
     
  24. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    I always wonder whether or not I should be open about it. I know that a few students at the age I teach may be struggling with it, and I am comfortable with my sexuality, but I don't think that my personal life is relevant to my curriculum, so I choose not to share that information usually. I am not obviously gay either. We're doing health education right now (sex ed) and some jokers put a question in the question box asking if I was gay (I mean, really, is anyone going to avoid that question when you're teaching these days, especially sex ed?). I said it was personal information, and they all went, "Oooooooooh!" But I doubt anyone of them concluded I was gay from that response.

    They also asked if I was a virgin, had a girlfriend, children, again personal information.
     
  25. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012


    Yeah, I'm not sure how it would work at another community nor in middle school. It's pretty easy at my school. Gay people here, teachers included, don't bring it up proactively, so to say, but if it comes up, they don't run from it. That is my impression. They refer to their "partner" which is a bit ambiguous, I know, go to school functions with their partner: that sort of thing.

    I wish you could speak with one of my gay colleagues, or perhaps there is a forum where it would more readily come up as a topic.

    I wish you the very best.
     
  26. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,942
    Likes Received:
    174

    May 9, 2012

    And the crickets began chirping. I have seen this before and the inhumanity of it screams sadness and cruelty. To turn your back on your child because of who they are is the height of ignorance.
    My mother was gay and suffered many years because she was born in a time where it "just didnt happen" She finally found someone to love and they spent their life together till the end. Not married of course because that was a threat to good marriages (that fail 50% of the time and include violence, abuse, child abuse etc etc). Letting gay people marry is as much a threat to hetero marriages as my chihuahua is a threat to my cat. IF you don't want to marry someone of the same sex then DON"T but get off your moralizing horse and let others enjoy the same rights you have. It worked for African Americans and can work for them.
     
  27. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    993

    May 9, 2012

    This is one of the issues that always made me struggle with the religion I was raised with. My parents are very, very Christian. They've never missed a Sunday at church in their lives- if they're on vacation, they find a church. If they're sick, they have their own little "service" at home. They both read the bible daily. They don't believe in gay marriage because the bible says it's wrong. From a religious standpoint, I understand how they feel that way. They believe in the bible, the bible says its wrong- end of story. It's not a complex issue for them. They would never say anything hateful or be openly rude/mean to anyone who was gay, but they would not support their ability to get married, because again, "it's wrong." If you only believe bits and pieces of the bible, how can any of it be true? How can you be a Christian and say, "Well, I think that part of the Bible isn't really true...but I believe the other parts." If you think some of it is false, that sort of negates the whole thing. The thing about evangelical Christians is also that they truly believe it's their duty to "witness" to the rest of the world. They really think that if you don't become a Christian, you're going to hell, and it's their duty as people who are already Christians to help you find the right path. In their minds, eternal life is more important than suffering in your "short life" on earth- so even if their views offend people, they think it's their duty to spread them still. I'm not talking about hate crimes, rude language, etc- I'm talking about people who truly believe being gay is wrong. That and the treatment of women are two of the big reasons why I haven't really been able to hold on to to that religion as an adult, but due to my background I really do understand the "why" behind people who don't support it.
     
  28. stampin'teacher

    stampin'teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    Waterfall, that's been my struggle as well. I was raised Roman Catholic, but for me, my takeaway was the concept of promoting good in yourself and others, and I have pretty much strayed away from organized religion. IMO, if there is a God and He is who everyone says, He won't get mad at me because I didn't go to church or pray enough...He will be glad to see that I was a good person, and treated others well.

    My parents as well as my sister both believe being gay is a sin.
    My oldest brother is gay, I've always known him to be gay...to a fault...he's pretty stereotypical (I mean that with only love!:)). My family has always loved him, welcomed his partner with open arms, etc. Yet, when Prop 8 came around in CA banning gay marriage, both my parents and my sister were pretty open about how they don't feel gay marriage should be legal.

    What?? You say you love your son, except for one of the aspects that makes him innately him? They all agree that it's not a choice, that it's something internal. How can you "disagree" with something that isn't a choice?

    I've always struggled with their ability to say and act as though they love him, yet still don't agree he should have a basic right. I just don't see how those beliefs can simultaneously be in one person.
    Of course, I have to love my brother-his response was that he was glad he can't legally marry, then he doesn't have to spend $ on a ring. ;) Gotta love him!
     
  29. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,942
    Likes Received:
    174

    May 9, 2012

    Sorry I came as so angry but my feelings go out to the underdog.
    You know if our kids get from adults that somehow gay people are not worthy of marriage then perhaps they are something to BE scorned and looked down on or even to mock and bully. Just saying.
    Someone said the trial and divorce lawyers should be out promoting
    this because it gives them a whole new clientele. I had to laugh
    at that. Liberty and Justice for all.
     
  30. JetShack

    JetShack Rookie

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    I think my favorite bumper sticker of all time is
    The Christian Right is neither.

    can't post links yet...

    do a search for "the christian left"
     
  31. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    It makes me sad too.

    Though I have to say, if my sister or I were gay, my mother would definitely cut us off from the family. She was just raised in a conservative country and believes that if the Bible says it's wrong, then it's wrong.
     
  32. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    993

    May 9, 2012

    My parents wouldn't cut me off, because that's not really what the bible supports either, but they would spend every waking moment trying to get me to "see the right way." In their minds, offending me in my earthly life would be a small price to pay to save my eternal life. They'd truly think they were doing the right thing. They have told me that they wouldn't support a wedding (financially) if I lived with the guy first (the whole no premarital sex thing) or if I served alcohol. That is how religious they are.
     
  33. KateL

    KateL Habitué

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    2

    May 9, 2012

    Sorry for the hijack, but if you end up teaching sex ed again, you might want to make a rule about no personal questions or comments. I always started the unit by saying they could ask as many questions as they want to, but the questions had to use appropriate words and had to be general. There would be no questions asked about my sexual experiences or anyone else's, and there would be no comments about anyone (like "Yeah, we all know so-and-so knows about that..."). I told them they could write their questions down if they don't want to ask it in front of everyone, but I picked the questions up off their desks instead of having them put it in a box. I would answer the questions after I had gathered several, so they didn't know who had asked each one. Middle school students are much less likely to write inappropriate things if they think that I will know who wrote the question, even if they are anonymous to their classmates.
     
  34. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    Haha! There is definitely already a rule in place about no personal questions, but they still ask them anyway. >_< I don't really let it break my stride though, and I show them I'm not afraid of reading the question and simply dismissing it as personal information or inappropriate. I also dismiss the questions that are "how-to" in nature.

    That's a good idea to simply gather them up, but I think our school the question box is a thing that is really set in place, and we're not supposed to change that, because they want everybody to feel safe in their anonymity. They don't take into account though that I pretty much know who wrote what questions simply because of their handwriting and the personality of the question. xD

    Also the comments like "so-and-so knows all about that" are completely prohibited in my classroom, and they know if I hear one, that they are out for the day, possibly for the rest of the year.
     
  35. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    4

    May 9, 2012

    Agreed.
     
  36. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    Pastor Harris' words and attitude are both inexcusable and indefensible. The mere hint of suggesting father's should punch their children for acting "prissy" is so profoundly ignorant, I am at a loss to fully address it. All I can do is shake my head in disappointment and shame that he represents my chosen faith.

    Sadly, though, the underlying ideal is more pervasive among Christian believers than I would care to admit. In my own home church, a prominent member took time during the "announcements" two weeks ago to urge the entire congregation to vote "FOR" Amendment One. I was personally outraged. Partly because I don't appreciate any person or figure in authority (such as a pastor, boss, etc) telling me how I should vote and partly because of the ignorance it displays, not just of the modern situation, but of the Biblical principles as well.

    I badly wanted to raise my hand, stand up and ask loudly enough for everyone to hear "Does that mean we should also pass an amendment making it illegal for those who commit adultery to marry? The Bible tells us that is wrong as well and that one was written in stone, so God obviously felt that sin was even more serious."

    The truly sad thing is that Amendment One reaches far beyond gay marriage. As a friend of mine pointed out, gay marriage is already illegal in NC, so why do we need an amendment to make it more illegal? The reason is that the current law only addresses gay marriage. The wording of Amendment One has ramifications that extend much farther.

    Here is a list of some of the potential problems Amendment One will create: Why Amendment One is bad for NC

    This is definitely going to be a case where the voters of NC should have been careful what they asked for.
     
  37. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    Unfortunately, churches using their access to their community to support a political position happens very often (and in some cases, they use tithes to fund political stances as Catholics and Mormons did for prop 8).
     
  38. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    May 9, 2012

    Yes they do and I agree it is very unfortunate on many levels.

    While I'm not surprised that Amendment One passed so convincingly (62%), I am truly disappointed and ashamed. :(
     
  39. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,004

    May 9, 2012

    Have faith. I believe it will get better. We're just going through a phase right now. The more they try to suppress the issue of gay marriage and create legislation against it, the more it will bubble to the surface as people realize that this simply isn't just and its not going to work, until it explodes, and we come to the realization again that people are people.
     
  40. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    6

    May 9, 2012

    Yes people are people. Both sides of this issue believe they are right and they believe they are right for different reasons. This is what makes the issue so hard. There is obviously not an easy answer for society. Someone said careful what you wish for and that is true, for both sides.
     
  41. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,601
    Likes Received:
    2,710

    May 9, 2012

    There's no "right side" to beating your kids.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

Total: 187 (members: 0, guests: 171, robots: 16)
test