Passing students to the next grade up

Discussion in 'General Education' started by rpan, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Apr 25, 2018

    It is because many times the students aren't getting the repetition needed in a short period of time. When retained, they may see the material again, but as quickly as the first time. For most people that struggle with something, that just isn't enough.

    What is meant by your quote is that unless the instruction changes in form or frequency getting the exact same instruction once again a year later will not produce the needed results for the struggling student because they will once again be passed by when they struggle.
     
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  2. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    That’s when you want to colloborate with a 3rd gr teacher, get a few 3rd gr level reading workbooks, and maybe a NJHS student to tutor him a few hrs a week.

    P’s love collaborations. They look good on evaluations.
     
  3. Pi-R-Squared

    Pi-R-Squared Groupie

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    Apr 26, 2018

    Especially when there are 16-year old 8th graders in a middle school.
     
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  4. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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    ,
     
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  5. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    I like what you're saying, but, for theory's sake, if you have a 6th grader on a first grade reading level, what reading material can you give him that realistically covers 6th grade curriculum?

    I suppose videos, discussions, etc., could be used so students could learn without being dependent on reading, but I do worry teachers in this situation would just try to find 1st-grade level books about big 6th grade topics.
     
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  6. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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    .
     
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  7. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Apr 26, 2018

    But isn't this what we are expected to do with our ELLs? How is it different?
     
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  8. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    :(
    It is sad, but true, that this is the case.
     
  9. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    It's not that I don't think good ones exist, but they are likely few and far between.

    I mean, we teach reading in hopes they will acquire the skills to read about these bigger subjects...
     
  10. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Completely agree with reading specialists! I definitely agree a good lesson would find other ways to get the lessons.


    Aren't the ELLs trying to still pick up language? That has a purpose, then, in tackling books they can read with part of the intent to be learning English.

    But a native English speaker who in many ways is ready for 6th grade topics and only gets the watered down simplicity of a low-level reader may be getting reading help, but if the lesson isn't done correctly is not getting the other curriculum he was intended to learn.

    Like @Leaborb192 was saying, there are ways to get them the curriculum.

    But handing a 6th grader a sight word reader about objects seen in Egypt and expecting him to learn significantly about different countries or whatever the 6th grade core is these days isn't doing anyone any favors.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
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  11. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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    ,
     
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  12. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Exactly right!
     
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  13. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Perhaps, but not necessarily. By the 6th grade, they've probably already received years of decoding, fluency and vocabulary work. We need to get out of the mindset that it's just a matter of us having sufficient specially-trained personnel and the right curriculum to solve the problem. Any student in this predicament must be seriously motivated to make a personal commitment to improve. In other words, failing students with a record of poor academic achievement - in addition to receiving our help - must be INTRINSICALLY MOTIVATED to help themselves, before this monstrous ship can be turned around.
     
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  14. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I've seen all but 2 schools give anything beyond lip service to help students. Most help is insufficient due to not providing proper instruction, too large of groups, or too limited of time. Some schools used what seemed like good programs but did not implement them as prescribed. A program that requires an hour a day in a very small group setting will not produce results when given to 15 students for 20 minutes a day.

    Worse than that, many times special education teachers don't know about programs that could help and are just doing the best they can with what they know.

    So, until I see all schools providing robust programs and sufficient help, I can't claim students are already getting the help they need.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  15. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    This is the reason I resorted to developing my own material for students in need of extreme intervention. Although it was initially somewhat time-consuming to do so, the benefits to students made it worthwhile. Here's an example of some Shortest Stories that were used for remediation of a multitude of reading sub-skills many of which students seemed to learn intuitively and resulted in the acceleration of instruction. They were extremely effective with underachieving 2nd-6th graders.
     
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  16. Bibliophile

    Bibliophile Companion

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    I agree hands down with so much of what has been said here.

    What about kids with extremely poor attendance. If a kid misses the majority of the school year retention makes sense because they haven't yet received "X" grade curriculum or "X" grade instruction so they should stay in that grade until they have atleast have time to have been taught the standards.

    My current retention issue is complex. I want to retain a kid with very very very poor attendance. He has missed 60% of the school year. He was very low to begin with (2 years below grade level in all subject but sped testing showed an IQ of 71 so they determined that he was working at his ability level and just keeps getting pushed on every year with no services aside from a 504 to give him extr testing time and direct him to pay attention ) so with missing all that school my argument is that I'm not really asking him to repete third grade, I'm asking that he get to attend it in the first place before moves on. With my district staunch anti-retention ideology I doubt he will be retained anyway. What's wrong with a fourth grader who reads at a middle or first grade level and can only add and subtract without regrouping as long as it isn't critical thinking problem that requires him to set up the problem. He still could learn something in fourth grade..yeah right!
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    There is a two prong answer to this.

    First the district should have enacted truancy protocols to address the lack of attendance. Some districts do a good job with this and others ignore the problem because they can't do much without having children removed from homes. But it must be addressed.
    Second children should be retained if they missed large amounts of school and are behind even if they had special services for medical issues. If they aren't at grade level or close they shouldn't move forward.

    As you said, they aren't getting the same because they were missing so much.

    We have to determine at what level is our curriculum geared. What do we expect, at minimum, for students with low IQs and how do we best address their needs. Sure they aren't labeled special education, but the truth is educating a student at a 70ish IQ level is very different than that of a 90 ish IQ level or a 110is IQ level. They have different needs.

    If these students start falling behind, what is the best education they can receive to help them be a productive adult? How do we get them there?
     
  18. Bibliophile

    Bibliophile Companion

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    The answer here is kind of an elephant in the room in my district. Everyone know it, but no one will say it since they wont let us do it.

    He sat in front of our last fractions assessment for 2 hours and couldn't complete 1 question. An assessment where he was one of 4/27 to not pass and the only student to score less than a fifty percent, including 2 sped students an an ELL with only 6 months in this country. After sitting in front of 4 questions for 2 hours I told him he didn't need to finish it. He has only half of a completely incorrect answer on a question with a 1/8's fraction bar with 3 shaded parts. The question says "label the fractional units on the fraction bar and name the shaded fraction". After 2 hours I have 4 hats-which I guess must mean 4/2. I read the question to him. He had a study guide all week with the questions to the test on it, just with different numbers. I offered to write the answers for him if he could orally tell me what they should be, he declined. This kid need to be retained for attendance and lack of the needed skills to be successful going forward but more than that he needs additional services just to access the current grade, but he doesn't qualify and wont get them. Yep, education is broken.
     
  19. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Not only is the institution called education broken, but critical elements are missing. Unfortunately, those in positions of authority who have the power to do something about it are either ignorant of how to repair the damage or lack the motivation to do so. Sadly, teachers are left to perform miracles with the remaining scattered pieces.
     
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  20. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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  21. Geologygirl

    Geologygirl Comrade

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    I think that retention can be useful to ensure students master basic skills before moving on to harder ones. To be fair I teach freshmen in high school some of whom were moved into 9th grade without passing 8th grade. Unfortunately for them you must pass my class with a C- or better or they have to take the class again as per school rules. Many of those who did not pass 8th grade classes do not believe me and then are shocked when they have to repeat the class as a upperclassmen. I think many would have passed had they been retained in the past and gained both academic and study skills needed to be successful in high school.
     
  22. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Today, we held a retention meeting for a kindergartener. We were torn about whether or not to retain. The deciding factor, though, was the fact that she will turn 18 at the beginning of her junior year! Needless to say, all stakeholders decided against retention.

    We always calculate their high school graduation age at retention meetings.
     
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  23. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Regardless of whether or not such underachieving students are retained, a greater issue that stakeholders frequently fail to address is what shall be done to bring the student up to grade level. All too often, I've noticed that intervention plans inevitably become remediation efforts that progress at a snail's pace over a period of years, until the child eventually graduates to the next level - with skills that are several years below grade level.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
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  24. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Having a good Response to Intervention (RTI) program in place can often be a deciding factor in cases like that. If RTI works as it is supposed to, students will learn new skills to relearn old content alongside learning new content. Our Title teacher has an amazing rapport with our students, many of whom are educationally stymied due to behavior issues, and she gets the students to trust her enough to believe in themselves.
     
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  25. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Yes! Passing the student up to the next grade with a token plan continues to avoid the problem.
     
  26. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    This reminds me of an "experiment" I conducted many years ago at a school in which retention of failing students was not uncommon. I recall purposely choosing the month of April (i.e. towards the end of the year after RTI and everything else was tried) in order to maximize the P's receptivity to my proposal. Since I had some extra time available in my special ed. schedule, I offered to work with five kindergarteners who were destined to repeat the same grade the following year. Even though these students had failed to learn rudimentary phonics/no phonemic awareness and knew few sight words, I decided to try out my old-school approach to literacy instruction with them. Not surprisingly, the group responded favorably to my use of time-tested techniques and methods that I had perfected over the years. In the end, 4 out of the 5 students were not retained and went on to be successful first-graders! My experiment showed that it's never too late to achieve effective intervention if teachers are empowered to break away from the status quo. (I was never a fan of RTI with all of its requirements and meetings.)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  27. miss-m

    miss-m Devotee

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    This thread plus helping with reading testing this week has made me feel like most of my school needs another year in their grade level. (Except I wouldn't wish that on the 5th grade teachers!) Most of 3rd grade is still reading at the end of 2nd grade or beginning of 3rd, and that's true all the way up through the grades here. It really feels like almost every student could just stay in their current grade for another year and it would put us at least a little closer to being on track.
     
  28. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    So, it is not low quality blueberries that is spoiling the muffins?
    Happy to hear that you convinced admin to allow the students proper help with sufficient time for the help.
     
  29. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

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    Sound like looping may help. You and your class move up to the next grade. You can’t get 27 red readers for the new grade when you know 2-3 of them still need picture books and sight words.
     

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