Oh you know it Bethany! I would do anything in my power to be there... "He__ or high water" as they say! And I'm not kidding! JR
I certainly can't say I would blame you Jerice... It's not every day you can take your first glimpse at your baby before you are able to hold him or her...what a miracle!! Congrats again, and just so you know, I completely agree with he__ or high water...certainly wouldn't miss it for the world if I were you! Keep us posted!
Complete thread WOW!! I just read the whole thread at times I was outraged and at other times I was nodding my head in agreement. it was like reading through a really good novel and not being able to put it down. I have no idea of the support systems in the Educational sector in America, but I feel for you all if my understandings are correct. I thought I had just had one major b***h of a teaching year with all the behavioural difficulties within the daily lives of my children (all 32 of them) but I can see it is as I have always believed 'No matter how bad things are there is always someone worse off than yourself' I hope things look up for you all and love & light to all
Macbeth25, I the ups and downs, and the disagreements are all a part of life! None of us agree with each other 100 percent, but I always try to find some sort of common ground...I know that for me, the support systems are not really there that strongly, but websites like this allow us all to get support, including being able to hear about how things are done in other countries. Speaking of which, what sort of support systems are provided to you in New Zealand? I was curious to know if they are similar or far different than those provided in the United States.
Well, an update (on several issues) is in order... First, the little guy to which this message was originally referring: I had to refer his case... I'm tore up by it because of Mom's circumstances, but what else can I do? Nothing... I tell myself that I did the right thing. That helps me sleep at night. Also, and MOST importantly, our baby is a GIRL!!! Her Brain and Spine appear to be developing normally and all appears healthy at this point. She weighs approximately 6 oz. at present and we've even decided on a name: Madeline Emory Raine Rice... It's long, I know, but we have a tradition in my family of having two middle names (for the boys usually) but she's going to be our only one, so I wanted to carry that on... And my Girlfriend loved the name Madeline (cuz we can call her Maddy or Emmy or M. E. or Mer, as in "Sea" in French... So many possibilities) and it fit well w/ the other two names. We've got to now come up w/ our BOY CONTINGENCY PLAN because you never can tell w/ sonograms. You all have a wonderful remainder of the week. JR
Awe!!! How sweet! That is a beautiful name! The more I teach, the more I realize how nice it is to have more traditional names show up in your room. As for the child you referred. I know how hard a decision that is. There are a few of those that I have made that I still wonder about. You went with what you thought was best for the child. That's what's important.
I realize that we give our children a great deal of medicine these days. From a parents point of view when our children are in school and we get numerous calls from principals and teachers, and our children are suspended and expelled from school or from the buss we depend on the medication to help our children be happy in school and provide an environment for learning. My children are on medication. I have tried several times to wean them off the medication but their grades fall and they just can not keep up with their grade level without assistance. So when you worry about the children being over medicated look at the overall picture before being to concerned. thank you cnagglepuss
Jerice, what a beautiful name! My fiance's family has a tradition with the initials of the boys names all being the same...interesting, but we will definitly keep to this if we ever have a boy. As for my family, we have a tradition of naming the girls after the grandmothers in some way...for example, my name, Bethany came from my maternal grandmother...her favorite name in the Bible. My middle name came from my paternal grandmother. I think traditions are a beautiful thing! Good for you for keeping the tradition, and applying it to your daughter, even though it's been for the boys. By the way, my brother and his wife are also expecting a girl...they just found out a few days ago and will name her Lydia Anne! One of my favorite roles right now is Auntie, so I get to spoil my three nieces and my nephew! So exited, because not only will I be an aunt again, my best friend is having a baby too, and I will be a godmother! I think the more that I work with children, the more I begin to see the awesome differences in each one. Each child is truly unique, and some will require different methods of handling situations. Some children require medication, and that is nothing to be ashamed of, and some can control behavior through diet, etc. My point is that regardless of the situation, as long as you know that you did what you felt was best for that particular child as an individual, you have done your job, and have done it well. Rest easy Jerice, you did all you can, and you are obviously a very caring person. You may have helped the child and mother more than you know, or even some of your co-workers, who knows! Enjoy your coming weekend, everyone. Bethany
Hi...I am one of those parents with ADHD kids. I am sooooo surprised that you think it's the parents who want to put their kids on drugs. With my older child, who is now 24, I was pretty much bullied by the school district to put him on medication. My younger son is NOT on medication and will not be on medication, although he was for a short time, at the behest, once again, of a harried teaching staff. For example, on his very first day of school his kindergarten teacher came out of the classroom, looked down her long witch like nose at me and told me that my son was not going to make it in kindergarten, and he had some serious behavioral problems, and I should consider my options. This she did in front of my son, and several other parents. She was a veteran teacher who had been at that school for a long time! About a week after that she broke her pelvis, and was off for the rest of the year. (Hmmm must be kharma???)(My son, by the way, now in 2nd grade is reading on a 5th grade level, and is bored with math because he processes at a higher rate than his class). I think it's a big cop-out too; but I think the cop out is mostly started on the school level, by teachers with 30 kids in the classroom who have one or two that don't sit and behave like the rest of them. You know what else I think? I think ADHD and ADD are both a bunch of hogwash! Prove it to me. The PET scans that they used to demonstrate the difference in brain functions were not controlled for gender, and therefore, they basically show the difference between a little boy brain and a little girl brain. I think all of this came about in the 70's when some scholastic theorist decided to do a grand social experiment to prove his theory that gender differences are based on social training, and that little boys should be able to behave exactly as little girls do in the classroom. Note that most kids "diagnosed" with ADHD and ADD are males. By the way, what exactly is the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, and ADD. It is not scientifically based at all, is it; it's based on testimonial evidence from teachers and parents. Hmmm. These kids are usually extremely bright, and need to be challenged and motivated. Yes, by their parents, but also by the school. As far as a bi-polar diagnosis in a first grader...pa-lease!!! That also, is a bunch of c--p! A psychologist I knew a few years back told me you have to be careful when dealing with kids, so that they are not diagnosed with the diagnosis "du-jour" and bipolar disorder seems to be the diagnosis du-jour. I have seen this in hospital settings with surgeries. Surgeons will have a run of a particular type of elective surgery. You cannot convince me that that many people can have the same problem and need the same surgery in a period of two weeks, and then the diagnosis du-jour moves on to something new. Makes ya wonder. Some kids...espeically little boys are very, very rambunctious! Society (or somebody out there who makes these decisions) has made a "rule" that boys should behave a certain way, and when they don't meet that expectation, well the parents are terrible, or there's something wrong with the child, must be mentally ill, maybe the parents need to put the kid on drugs, oh, and let's use an amphetamine. (Have you ever seen a drug addict who's drug of abuse is amphetamine? They become very, very focused. They will sit and work on some small little thing for hours and hours). There's an ENORMOUS amount of pressure out there to keep these wild and crazy boys controlled. It just takes to much time and energy to try to fit the square peg into the round hole. I mean, think about it...males and females approach almost all problems differently. I don't believe that's entirely attributable to socialization. Instead of trying to make the little boys behave like little girls, we should look at them as what they are. Baseball caps, slingshots, dirty sneakers, and fishing poles. Not all little boys are meant to wear sweater vests and bow ties. I believe we should be in awe of our little boys. We should be so proud of their maleness, and we should encourage that maleness. Please accept my apologies if I have said anything you find insulting, that certainly isn't my intention, but as a parent with 4 kids, two of whom are boys I have an awful lot to say about this particular issue. Here's to drug free boys!
Oh...I should have kept going on this string before I jumped in with my last reply!!!! You are so right about the "I can't control myself" issue!!!! Children do need to learn to control themselves, and they need the guidance and good examples to do that. When we go around "diagnosing" them with this disorder or that disorder, all we're doing is giving them excuses for bad behavior. Think about it...isn't that really what ODD is? A definition of a teenager who is acting like a real s--thead? Come on! The kid needs some discipline. Needs to have his TV and his X-box taken away. As far as applying these adult disorders to little kids. Enough is enough! We will have a society who will not be able to stand on it's own two feet before long. You know, even adult disorders are over diagnosed. I truly think that half of the DSM based diagnosis are just excuses for irresponsible behavior. Yes, there really are people who really do have these disorders; but not nearly as many as are being diagnosed with them. As for me; I learned my lesson with my oldest boy. I will NOT be bullied into making my youngest boy take medications. I do not accept any kind of psychological or medical diagnosis that excuses bad behavior. I am and I will continue to provide my son with guidance and discipline, and to teach him the forgotten art of SELF DISCIPLINE. And I'll tell you something else too. Although the term loving discipline seems also to be spoken of a lot, and spoken of in terms of gentleness...if my son lights a match and sets a fire, I am going to spank him. Quite thoroughly. And do you know why? Because I love him with every breath I take, and I don't want anything bad to happen to him. That's why. That's what loving discipline is.
No offense taken. I would love to leave my children off the drugs. I would have to home school to do this because of our school system. I wouldn't have a choice because they would expell or suspend him. Then the school system looks down on homeschooling? they dicourage it!!! I don't understand. But rather than have my son ridiculed and abused in school I put him on the meds. He does Okay they still have to guide and help him focus. Any Ideas? Maybe I should just pull them out of school and teach them myself? Sincerely cnagglepuss(Barbara)
soberval -- All I can say is AMEN! Unfortunately, there ARE a lot of parents who would rather use excuses and medicate as an easy-out. I have encountered people in the school system who believe medication is the only way as well. I am really worried myself about how so many people are on medication now, adults and kids... and what they will determine in the future that these medications do to a person's body/mind. No one really knows the long-term effects. Much of our society's need to have these medications is caused by stress, and people not using healthy ways of dealing with it: exercise, diet, working through problems and relationships the hard way. (Just my humble opinion... in general. Not everyone who is taking meds is taking the easy way out, but I think that a lot of people don't even utilize the benefits of exercise/diet/therapy.) P.S. I do believe that some children have bipolar disorder at a young age. I have had such a child in my class. HOWEVER, this child also was able to use this as an excuse for her behavior and had not learned self-control. I think certain illnesses like BP do cause a person more problems in certain areas, but they must learn appropriate ways to deal with it. I'd rather have the child learn how to deal w/ it as a child without meds... Then it's possible they can grow up and handle the problems as an adult w/o meds. If the child has meds, the hopes of them ever living drug-free is slim.
Soberval, I absolutely agree with you! I think it is horrifying and tragic that schools are pushing the subject of getting more and more children medicated. I absolutely think you are right...what ever happened to teacher's coping abilities? While I am aware that serious psychological/physical/chemical disorders do exist (I have ran across several children through the years who no doubt were suffering from the disorder they had been diagnosed wih), I think we, as a society, have supplied the easiest way out for parents, children, and teachers alike. Children are plastered with labels that they will carry their entire lives (after all, if you hear something enough, you believe it), teachers are losing the ability to cope with students who present challenges, and parents are fooled into thinking that the only way to keep their children "normal" is to medicate them!!! What on earth is this world coming to??? I am frustrated by teachers who (in my humble opinion), give us all a bad name...deal with the kids for heaven's sake!!! Children need to have limits...yes, I said LIMITS!!! They need to know that some behaviors are NOT acceptable, they don't need excuses made for the behaviors, such as, "he has ADD, so he can't keep from flinging pencils at another student's head!" It is frustrating, and down right shameful that we rely on medication for EVERYTHING! Stress? Take a couple sleeping pills...Headache? Take two aspirin...Inattentive? Take some Ritalin... As I said, I have no doubt that some children do suffer from severe, life altering disorders...to the parents of those children...do whatever it takes to keep your child healthy! To the parents who put their children on medication because the school said so...who is the parent? you or the school?? I have seen some children who had bi-polar disorder (I have NO doubt this was the case), among other things, and those children deserve to have medication that will give them a fair shot at life...but that doesn't mean that every 7 year old who can't sit still should have medication! What ever happened to children just being active, or just being children!!?? Ok, I think I have finished my rambling...please don't take offense, anyone, I am just a frustrated teacher at the end of a really long day... Regards, Bethany
Ok, I have to take the other side here. First, I don't know how it is at other schools, but at my school/district/state, if I told a parent their child needed medication, I could be held financially responsible. So I have NEVER told a parent to put their child on medication. I would love to see kids able to function without the medication. However, I teach 4th grade in Louisiana. That means in 1 month, 2 weeks, and 6 days my kids take the LEAP. A single test that will determine if they get to go to 5th grade. If they can't focus, work, function, without that medication, this isn't the grade to change it. Of the kids on meds at school, easily half could function without it. The biggest issue I've hit with parents, they can't handle the behavior at home or over the summer. Kids have freedom to move in my room. I don't require them to sit rigidly in their desk day after day. As long as they are not interfering with the education of those around them, they are fine. We do a lot of activities, things to keep them up and moving. Learning is often noisy in my room. I'm pretty tolerant of their behavior. I agree that there are a lot of kids who could do with none, or at least less medication. There are kids who do need medication. I don't think it's teachers seeking it, though. I take no offense at those who agree differently, just my humble opinion.
ChristyF, I have to agree with you. I have always been told (working in a daycare and now student teaching) that recommending medication for a child is COMPLETELY out of the question. Most teachers do not have medical degrees and therefor have no right to recommend medication for a child. The most that can be done is maybe suggesting counselling or other services within the school that may be useful depending on the situation, but suggesting that a child has a certain diagnosis or recommending medication is not even an option. I think that medication is warranted in some cases....I have seen both ends of the spectrum....children who do not need medication that are on waaay too much and also children that probably could benefit from medication that are not on any, but I do also think that is is over prescribed. Sometimes parents do use it as a cop-out because it is easier than trying different discipline strategies, but anyone other than a medical doctor that is recommending medication is way out of line.
I'm sorry, I think maybe you're right...nowadays! However, when my 24 year old son was in elementary school, there were no policies to prevent teachers from insisting that a child be on medication. At least, that was the case where he went to school. I have to agree that a lot of parents don't seem to care, and are so busy with their own problems that they have forgotten all about the kids, and I think that it's quite possible that this is the very root of the problem. "If I can't get attention from mom and dad unless I really lay it on thick, then I will really lay it on thick." Of course, I don't think kids conciously think that way, but it's so necessary to be present for your kids and fill their needs that they don't even know they have yet, and most parents are ill equipped to do this these days, and maybe that's partly because this generation of parents grew up with some pretty crazy ideas about child rearing, and many of them are very young themselves. I am now 46 years old. I have raised two into adulthood, and have two at home, and I will honestly say that I am not doing things the same way. I've learned. The most important thing in a childs life is love and acceptance from mom and dad. Along with this, parents have to take responsibility for teaching their kids that they are responsible for their behavior. Period. Society, also, needs to support that notion. When my older boy was a teenager, he did some pretty dumb things, which put him on the wrong side of the law. Was he held responsible? Nope. I was. What did he learn from that? He really walked away from the experience with nothing more terrible than having to talk to a probation officer once a week, and picking up some trash one day. He learned that mom is responsible. He can do whatever he likes, and mom will have to pick up the mess. He's since been set straight about that, but that is just such a wrong message to send kids! Stressed out kids need more play time, and more exercise, and more, well, giggling. Not medications. Yes, there are truly some kids that really have problems, and they really do need medications. But I have to say that far, far to many people...not just kids are becoming dependant upon Eli Lilly, and Pfizer and Merck. On your point about testing. Yes, it would do the children on meds a terrible disservice to change horses in midstream at such a juncture, this is a problem that is larger than that, and really, really needs to be addressed on a wide basis for quite some time. Also, I'm just curious...do kids ever get held back any more if they fail? I know there was a period of time where it was a big bad thing to hold a kid back...bad for their ego, apparently. I know with my little boy, I had to get all kinds of special permission to keep him out of kindergarten for an extra year. He was so not ready when he was "supposed" to be. I am so glad I did. He's one of the older ones in his class now, but he's about the same in terms of maturity, whereas if I would have let him go in earlier, I feel that he'd be way behind. It's hard to teach parents how to be parents. We have this mobile society, now, so the extended family isn't around to help with the kids...and while my Gramma may be able to tell me to straighten up my parenting, I would probably be a little resentful hearing that from someone else.
Soberval- I have read through your discussion threads and first I want to say thank you on behalf of 9th grade teachers everywhere for realizing that your little guy wasn't quite ready for kindergarten when his age said so. I truly think it will help him in the long run. My husband and I are at the stage right now where we are not sure what to do with our four year old next August. School starts the day he turns 5. He reads and writes, but he is a little immature socially, so we're giving pre-school a shot. As for the medication, when I was in school none of the kids in my class were on medication unless they were sick. You know chickenpox, strep, that sort of thing. I think ADD is a way for people to rationalize their kids/students inability to stay focussed and on task. When quite a bit of the problem can be attributed to either immaturity or lack of self-discipline or just plain curiosity. My littlest guy is 18 months and he can't stay still for anything he wants to explore how everything works. This may be a challenge for him when he gets to school, but he is going to have to learn appropriate school behavior, without medication. My four year old, on the other hand,could sit down for hours reading books or playing cars when he was 18 months. I have been teaching 9th graders for the past six years, and 8th graders before that. I really hammer the kids on responsibility and self-control otherwise they will struggle for the remainder of their lives. It's amazing how it seems to frequently be my fault that a kid has turned in nothing and is failing my class. As a society we need to get ourselves put back together. We need to stop overdiagnosing, pointing fingers, and do what we can as individuals to pass on to our youth the skills they need in order to be successful. 9th grade boys are creatures from another universe, but most don't need medication to straighten them out... they need guidance. Don't get me started on the girls... Thank goodness I was blessed with two boys.
I agree that ADHD is used as an excuse all too often. I have had several children that I've worked with that have used it as an excuse to not follow directions. There are cases in which a child really just needs to learn self control and have some sort of discipline in his/her life. It is, however, a valid disorder and there are many children that are physically unable to focus on just one thing long enough to complete an assignment no matter how many times they are reminded or how often they are punnished for their actions.
I think the main thing to keep in mind here is that no one is saying that NO child should be on medication, but rather, than it is often misused, abused and over percribed...I certainly know firsthand that there are some children who absolutely cannot function without their medication...I agree with that, and understand it, and know that it is in the child's best interest for them to have meds. HOWEVER, I do feel that ADD and other disorders that are no doubt, real disorders, are over diagnosed! And, despite what we all know as professional guidelines, i.e. not recommending meds to a family, this does not mean that it doesn't happen! I have had co-workers, employees, supervisors, etc. that have all said something that would have out and out offended me if I were the child's mother! As you said, Beth2004, most teachers do not have medical degrees...the appropriate way to seek help for a child is recommending the child be referred...most districts around me allow the teacher to bring such concerns to the social worker or school counselor, and then it is done in the appropriate way. It is sad how much emphasis we place on labels! Keep in mind, learned helplessness is also very real, and if a child goes through his whole life hearing that he can't do this or that because of ADD, etc, he will begin to believe it and give up. Frustrating but true. I do not doubt in any way, that there are some children who need the meds to have a fair chance in life, however, I think we have to be mindful as a society of how much we are helping our children with such labels and meds. What if pulling the child out of public school and putting the child into alternative schooling would be better? What if home schooling would be better? There are so many questions. We as professionals must see our way through the mess to do what is BEST for the child, whether it be meds or anything else...call it a civic duty if you want, but it is definitely a HUGE responsibility! As we all know, we are currently shaping our future!! God bless you all for your diligent work on behalf of children!
You all are awesome, and I am truly enjoying this discussion! We seem to have some sort of a concensus here, regarding overdiagnosing, enabling poor behavior, and lack of responsibility. I also agree that some kids do so much better in different types of learning situations. What can we do? We need to do something.
I am a parent who homeschools my own ... & I've had school system try to bully me into medicating his brothers ... put them thru the entire battery of testing (my own $$$pocket$$$--not school's) & discovered by experts there was no need for medication, no ADD/ADHD ... switched teachers & school decided no need for medication ... (we were going thru divorce at time & we were all having a tough time handling it) ... there can be lots of reasons for behavior problems in school ... & I love homeschooling my youngest (age 16) ... even tho I work in this district as a sub ... which I also enjoy (love the kids, hate the "politics") I am just grateful that I do have options ...
My son has been a remarkably self-sufficient kid since day one ... he is 11 years younger than his next oldest brother & 16 years younger than his oldest brother ... right now he takes Jazz Band, Symphonic Band, & Percussion Ensemble at the local high school, Jazz Ensemble, College Band, Applied Trombone, Geology,& U.S./WY Government at the local Jr. College. We work on Geometry, world history, literature (Shakespeare right now) & Biology at home. Kiddo can drive now so that makes life easier ... but I've always worked my schedule so that we were able to spend at least 3 days a week on the academic stuff & we've been able to rely on community resources. I once dropped him off at a free seminar at the college on food safety (a 2 day class for food service workers) & he was able to explain in disgusting detail why he never wanted to work in the food industry & just exactly what goes on inside a cow's gastro-intestinal tract ... eww! gross! He has also taken 2 semesters of Latin at the college & has 24 credits altogether there ... the Latin & U.S./WY Gov will count toward highschool as well as college thru the B.O.C.E.S. program ...
In my old school, students who were not full-time, and who came only for the perks, were not covered by insurance, nor were they eligible for field trips, parties, etc. I was wondering if other schools were that way?
It sounds like many of you get the younger undisciplined kids... You should see what they are like when they get to me in the ninth grade. By the time the kid has reached me the parents have given up and they really don't have any control over the situation anymore. I have a four year old in pre-school right now and my husband and I try very hard to discipline him so we don't have behavior issues once he hits school. Sometimes I see the kids in his class and I wonder how they will do next year in Kindergarten, and I wonder if our work is going to pay off or if he will be influenced by the other kids in his class to misbehave. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I taught 6,7, and 8th grades for over twenty years, and you are right; once they get up to us, many of their parents have given up. But, at that age, the peer pressure thing also kicks in, and often seeing the reaction of their friends is enough to straighten out some of the kids. Being denied the right to participate in sports because of poor citizenship is also a pretty successful tool, too. Sometimes the first person to say 'no' to these kids, and mean it, is a judge. But we teachers can't do it all by ourselves; we MUST have parental backing, and it seems like most of the time, the parents won't do it, and won't let us do it either. (Their poor child is being picked on, you know. . . . .)
I completely agree about the parents just giving up. Sometimes it happens way before a child is is middle school, though. I had a 10 year old at the after school program who completely ran his household. His mother had NO control over him. It was to the point that if we were having a problem with him and needed to call her, she'd tell us that she would keep him home the next day (this was usually during the full-time summer days), but in order for her to keep him home, we needed to tell him that he was suspended from the program because he wouldnt listen to her. She's scared of her 10 year old and obviously has been for quite some time! It scares me to think of where he'll be in a few years. I would not be at all surprised to see his name in the paper for seriously hurting someone.
Jane, I'm sorry that so many parents don't seem to be involved with their kids. I know from experience what a difference it makes. My older two had the misfortune of not having 2 parents involved. I worked full time, and although I loved them both deeply, and wanted the best for them, and did the best I could with what I had; I wasn't there for them in the way I should have been. Inexperience, and working full time nights and having little or no support from anyone made it tough. That's not an excuse, it's a reason. There were many things I missed. I also didn't get any support from the school system that we were in. When my son was in junior high, there was one teacher that picked his chair up and threw it against the wall, then threw my son and his desk out into the hallway. I complained about the teachers behavior, and was ignored. While I understand that my son was difficult to deal with, I thought a teacher throwing a temper tantrum was a bit over the top. Then, the county decided it would be a good idea to get the police and the court system more closely involved with the school. (This is a very small rural school district; I'm not talking about inner city gang territory!) If a child got into any kind of trouble at school, he was placed in detention which was run by a cop...not a teacher, a cop. Then, they came up with this idea that these kids needed the in-your-face kind of discipline you find in boot camp. So they picked a chosen few...my son among them, and started a new class with a wanna-be drill instructor for a teacher. These, mind you, are 8th grade kids. During that period of time, I was at that school almost every day trying to make some kind of sense out of what they were doing. I finally just pulled him out, and sent him to stay with his dad in another state where he could actually get an education rather than a boot camp routine. This child, who is now 24 ended up dropping out. He took his GED, however, and scored very well on it. His IQ is well over 140, and he has plans for his future that he is working on. I now have two younger kids, and I am married again. My freshman is so far a straight A student. She has goals, and standards and is a very good kid. My little sweetie pie baby boy is 8 and in 2nd grade. I conference with his teacher every single day when I pick him up. My husband and I are extremely involved in everything he does, and I am still communicating very well with my 14 year old. I have made it a point over the years to develop a trust between us. I am not working right now, but when I return to work I will remember the lessons I learned. Some things can be put aside...some things can wait, but a child can't. We, the parents are the first teachers, and we remain teachers for our entire lives. My oldest daughter, 25, married with two kids of her own still looks to me. What an awesome responsibility. If I could give something to young parents who haven't already raised kids, I would give them the understanding that nothing else matters, not really. You can always make money, but you can never make time. You can spend it wisely with your kids, or it's gone forever.
ours is the 1st district in our state to go "schools of choice" which means that they accept homeschoolers ... also that parents can select which school to send their kids to ... we are a "market driven" district ... our kids can even attend one school for core subjects & another for music/art/film/drama, whatever, they can take 1 class or 3 or 5 at a particular school & be homeschooled for everything else ... we don't even have to "prove" anything by testing or grades (other than the required C average) to participate in extracurriculars ... other districts in the state are still battling over allowing homeschoolers to attend ... we have 8th graders taking highschool math, 6th graders taking Jr. Hi English or music or whatever, very "progressive" district
I'm all for the AP classes, and any cultural experiences and exposures. But was I being unreasonable for refusing to allow kids I did not even know, who were not in any of my classes, to go with us to all the field trips I planned to coordinate with my lessons? I used to take my middle school classes to plays and musicals a lot, but I also required a LOT of preparation from them before they were allowed to go. Sometimes, parents of home-schooled kids, kids I didn't even KNOW, demanded that I include their child, and I refused. Why should a student who did not do the prepwork, a student I do not know, get to participate in something that other kids have been working towards for a long time? I know many of you think I'm truly mean, but I'm not, honest. I just wondered, sometimes, why/how a parent who did not trust me to teach their child literature, grammar, and spelling, would be so anxious to trust me with their child's body on a bus, and a field experience their child had not been prepared for? It seems like many parents insist on using school facilities for certain things, but pull their kids out for others, all the while expecting the teachers to know who these kids are and to include them in anything fun. It's not fair to the regular students. And don't start in with the 'I pay taxes' thing.
Jane, I agree...in my humble opinion, if you homeschool, you homeschool. There are organizations of homeschoolers for the purpose of social interaction and field trips; homeshoolers shouldn't rely on the school for this type of activity. You're right, it's not fair to the kids who worked so hard to prrepare for the priviledge of going on one of these trips to have someone come along who did not do the work; that's like having a group assignment, and everyone getting an A, while only one or two of the students did the work. And as far as taxes...I'm not sure, so I'm just asking the question: don't homeschoolers get a tax break, at least on income tax?
Oh, and where I live, anyway, school funding is based on attendance; so if you homeschool, that school that you want your kids to go on field trips with is not getting any funding for your child, so you are really getting a freebie and taxing an already overtaxed system. My local school district is just falling apart. Between charter schools, private schools, and kids moving out of the district, there are 4 elementary schools slated for closure this year alone, and they are recommending closing 13 more over the next ten years. They are eliminating librarians, aides, and some administrative positions, and music and p.e. programs. This used to be one of the top school districts in my state, and that's one of the reasons why we moved here...now, I'm thinking we're going to have to move again soon so that my kids can get a worthwhile education. So, anyway, I think it's only fair that homeschoolers stay out of the school system, and rely on their own networking to do all the extracuricular stuff.
Thank you so much, soberval. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I appreciate your feedback. I fully understand why some people would choose to homeschool instead of sending their kids to overcrowded classrooms, but once that decision is made, these families should stick to it, and not insist that their kids be included in band, sports, and any of the fun stuff. Either your child is a fully enrolled student, or he/she is not. Pick one.
Jane- Our district doesn't allow students who are home schooled to participate in these activities at our school, and I'm ok with this. There are other outlets for these creative and athletic functions through the community. Public schools shouldn't be expected to bear the finances of home schooled kids when there is no money coming in for those kids. Schools don't have enough money for paper much less supporting kids who are not part of the ADA. I agree, if people choose to home school, they need to take on all of the schooling responsibilities.
If a parent chooses to homeschool their child, then they aren't allowed to take part in school activities. If they are homebound for health reasons, then it become one of those gray areas. Next week I start working with a girl that I taught last year. She was diagnosed as a diabetic and is having a lot of trouble with it. They are considering putting an insulin pump in. Even though she will be homebound, she will still be able to take part in the field trip and hopefully will be able to come to other special events.
as a band director, I'm irritated with the idea of a homeschooled child coming in and getting to participate. (something they were trying to push through here that failed, thanksfully in my opinion) The kids in MY band are required to have a certain grade point, maintain certain standards of behavior (I have one going on probation for fighting today, that may be removed if the pattern of behavior continues), but I'm supposed to allow a child to come in who doesn't have to maintain these same standards in the same situations day in day out? Somehow doesn't seem quite "fair" (yea, yea I know life isn't fair, but like someone pointed out there are homeschool oragnizations for these things.. I live two doors down from the Homeschool BAND director from this area)
misunderstanding here I think, in this district, this very progressive district, this would not happen either ... a homeschooled kid would not expect to go on the field trip or excursion with the local public school kids unless that kid was in that teacher's class the whole year for that particular subject ... we have (for instance) 4th grade homeschooled kids who do attend the local public school for maybe 4th grade music or art & if those 4th graders were to go to a concert or art show then the 4th grade homeschooler would also go ... but he would not go on the history field trip if he did not take history classes with that particular class or group or teacher ... we have homeschooled 7th or 8th graders who attend the local middle schools for foreign languages maybe & if their 7th or 8th grade class attends a foreign language field trip, then they would be allowed to go also ... but homeschooled kids do not just up & demand to go on a field trip with a particular class or group if they are not already in that class or group ... the homeschool parents here organize their own field trips & excursions ... & invite their kids public schooled friends along if they want to go ...
as I've already explained, this does not happen ... a homeschooled kid who takes music at the local jr. hi or high school does get to go on the music field trips, because he does the prep work & it's part of his grade, but he would not go on the history or science field trip if he was not taking history or science with that particular teacher or at that particular school & no, homeschoolers pay property tax also which is what goes to support our public schools ... we do not get tax breaks on our property tax, we do not get any federal income tax breaks either ...
