On school dress codes

Discussion in 'General Education' started by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha, Feb 17, 2021.

  1. LimaUniformNovemberAlpha

    LimaUniformNovemberAlpha Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    3

    Feb 17, 2021

    When I was teaching in a prep school in China, dress codes were enforced by female employees who went from classroom to classroom, inspecting the students, and making notes about who was violating the dress code such that consequences could be meted out afterwards.

    In western schools, on the other hand, I was afraid to even point out violations of the dress code, on account of teenagers' collective reputation for calling male teachers pedophiles for enforcing it. Make no mistake, this was a selfish, cowardly act of appeasement on my part. A person of honour would feel even MORE compelled to enforce the dress code, not less, if only to fight back against such slanderers. (Fortunately, the western schools at which I taught were cold enough that obvious enough dress code violations causing any obvious harm weren't a thing anyway.) That and I've since changed careers.

    But I don't think it's realistic to expect people to endure false accusations of just about one of the worst things a teacher could be, just to enforce dress codes that could be enforced some other way.

    Why isn't the rest of the world doing what that prep school in China does? Is it because they're afraid to have anything in common with China? That'd be like saying Hitler ate sugar.

    Is it because they're afraid to subject any female employee to the tedious burden of inspecting students' appearance? If so, why is it any more acceptable to subject any janitor; male or female; to the tedious burden of cleaning up messes students made? Do they really think accusations of being a pedophile are as damaging if one's a woman as if one's a man?

    Do they secretly side with those slanderers on opposition to the dress code? If so, why do they re-elect school board trustees who support dress codes? (Or for that matter, why do they not ask themselves why they are on the same side of the issue as such slanderers?)

    Do they secretly side with those slanderers on making male teachers out to be inherently pedophiles? If so, why do they re-elect school board trustees who hire men as teachers at all?

    I say the rest of the world needs to immediately do what that prep school did. Every voter, in every school board election, has a decision to make; you can stand with us, or you can stand with the slanderers.
     
    sara nazari likes this.
  2.  
  3. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,653
    Likes Received:
    1,952

    Feb 18, 2021

    ...we don't all have dress codes?
     
    Tired Teacher likes this.
  4. sara nazari

    sara nazari New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2021
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0

    Feb 18, 2021

    My last School had dress code for girls only, and I disagreed with that. now I like A to Z group for helping students and teachers to better performance.
     
  5. LimaUniformNovemberAlpha

    LimaUniformNovemberAlpha Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    3

    Feb 18, 2021

    Well, ideally dress codes should have stipulations for male AND female students, but let's keep it real here, female students don't have quite as strong a reputation for dealing with horniness quite as severe. The same people who complain dress codes aren't "gender-neutral" are the same people who are more often caught responding to a guy they disagree with through a cheap shot about his virginity than a gal they disagree with through a cheap shot about hers. That wouldn't occur to them at all if they didn't assume male virginity implied undesirability more than it did for female virginity, which, in turn, wouldn't occur to them at all if they didn't consider men easier to arouse than women.

    As well, if a girl becomes aroused it's not going to be as visible, and in turn, not as embarrassing.

    Last but not least, it is confirmed by the tendency of those who say otherwise to be wrong about everything else. I remember like it was yesterday being so obsessed with my crushes in my own teen years that I'd be more excited to be near my crush who's in a modest jacket than to be around all the other girls who are in their swimsuits. So when people who preach this "gender-neutral" BS mistake me for "projecting" my own nature onto others, I can only extrapolate their tendency to be wrong to other things.
     
  6. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    6,253
    Likes Received:
    2,162

    Feb 18, 2021

    If there is a dress code, it should be based on the item of clothing rather than the perceived gender of the student since not all students identify as male or female. For example, shorts/skirts must come past the fingertips. Doesn't matter who wears them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    RainStorm and Tired Teacher like this.
  7. LimaUniformNovemberAlpha

    LimaUniformNovemberAlpha Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    3

    Feb 18, 2021

    If a student has a medical condition that may make eating something on short notice a literal matter of life or death, they can carve out a "no food in the classroom" exception for that student without revoking the entirety of the rule. (Okay, sometimes not even that at all schools; although I've always thought "just clean up after yourself" made more sense anyway.) No rule could realistically expect to apply to every possible student.

    I'm sure skirt length and the like can be made gender-neutral, but I wouldn't presume to claim to know whether or not everything can be. And at the end of the day, anything that's perceived as disproportionately targeting clothing that tends to be worn by girls is going to be perceived as "discriminatory" anyway. We can't afford to ignore the hormones that are at least part of the reason these dress codes are so necessary.

    EDIT: For the record, I do not intend to compare merely being intersex to harmful medical exceptionalities, except by the fact that exceptions to the norm are distinct from the norm.

    Feb 26 edit:

    As if on cue, I have since found a case of a student complaining that a (female!) teacher was "sexualizing" her by ascribing sexual motives to an outfit that she... claims wasn't intended to be sexual. Because heaven forbid someone actually have knowledge of what outfits have a history of causing sexual thoughts in hormone-addled teenage boys.

    https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/ne...propriate-for-a-kamloops-classroom-1.24286048

    There's just no getting through to these people, is there? -.-
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  8. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,063
    Likes Received:
    228

    Feb 26, 2021

    1) They're not necessary.
    2) As you've pointed out yourself, you've become more aroused if the girl you like is wearing a jacket and others are around in swimsuits. So it's not the clothes.
    3) I have a knowledge of what outfits have a history of causing sexual thoughts in hormone-addled teen boys. It's all of them.
    4) Schools have a very strong tendency towards authoritarianism. Some of it is necessary. Many dress codes are not.
    5) The way to avoid slanderous accusations is to make the dress code clear and precise. “Worn in a way that detracts from the teaching/learning process.” is not clear and precise, and therefore does not belong in a dress code.
     
  9. LimaUniformNovemberAlpha

    LimaUniformNovemberAlpha Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    3

    Feb 26, 2021

    1. According to whom?

    2. I never claimed to be a representative sample of 3 and a half billion people. You know what comes closer to being that, though? The aforementioned reasoning in the very same post you're referencing about who does or doesn't have said "tendency to be wrong."

    3. Not necessarily equally so. If anyone really felt the outfit makes no difference, that'd be all they felt the need to say. They wouldn't need any of this other stuff about accusing teachers of being "sexualizing" them, because heaven forbid we ascribe sexual motives to the clothing choices of a demographic so notoriously hormone addled they risk the dire poverty associated with pregnancy and/or child support bills.

    4. Again, according to whom?

    5. No, the way to avoid slanderous accusations is to cut them off at the source; the slanderers themselves. To fight back. Anything less is appeasement.
     
  10. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,954
    Likes Received:
    1,449

    Feb 27, 2021

    Dress codes are very, very common in everyday life. I’m not sure why people get so bent out of shape over school dress codes.
     
    vickilyn and Backroads like this.
  11. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,063
    Likes Received:
    228

    Mar 8, 2021

    Many schools do not feel the need to police their students' clothing. They would say dress codes are not necessary.

    Moreover, at those schools that do not police their students' clothing do not police students' clothing, the teachers aren't put in a position of having to comment on it. That eliminates complaints of sexualization based on dress code enforcement.

    If you bring in your personal experience to support a claim, then you can't turn around and say it's irrelevant later. It's either relevant or it's not -- decide which, and what you want it to provide support for.

    Pretty much any clothes are going to arouse some subset of the population -- I think we do agree on that, don't we? Putting responsibility for that arousal on the one wearing the clothes is wrong, frankly.

    This is a terrifying quote to me: it suggests that clothing choice causes more pregnancy, or that clothing choice itself is somehow a risk behavior.

    There's a lot of evidence that schools tend to be authoritarian -- the structure is hierarchical, they frequently expand their scope of control beyond what's necessary for education, discipline is frequently given without a significant hearing and sometimes relies on suspect evidence, usually with the same person fulfilling the role of both judge and jury.

    The link you cite is a great example of a poor dress code. The girl was sent home purely because of the teacher being "uncomfortable" with the clothing. That's not a standard. It will vary by teacher, and by student. Your "fight back against these slanderers" essentially is, "show these kids who's boss and don't listen to their complaints". That's authoritarianism.

    With a clear, precise dress code, a teacher could cite the lines from the dress code and say how it's being applied in a consistent and impartial fashion, not capriciously based on personal whim.

    It seems like the reason you want to enforce dress codes is to prevent arousal. You know this won't work in all cases at the very least. I don't think you even have anything other that suspicion that it will work in any cases, and it's unclear why you think this is such a negative to begin with.

    In most instances, one has a choice whether to subject themselves to a particular dress code. Kids in school do not.

    I think there are some decent arguments for dress codes, but don't think, "Oh no, the kids are horny" is one of them -- especially when you're trying to convince them it's not based on sexualization.
     
  12. LimaUniformNovemberAlpha

    LimaUniformNovemberAlpha Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    3

    Mar 11, 2021

    "Sexualization" in the sense of speculating as to how teenagers could arouse or distract each other is not the same thing as "sexualization" in the sense of referring to teachers as legitimate sex partners for students. The former is necessary if only because attraction cannot be objectively proven and is not always going to be admitted to. The latter is obviously not only unnecessary but at odds with everything society values about consent.


    I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said I am just one person; hence my experiences not necessarily being normal; whereas dozens of people have mistakenly presumed me to be speaking from experience (thousands, if you count the people on the same websites who did not distance themselves from such assumptions) and that is far less likely to be an anomaly.

    Of course, on the Internet, one cannot prove one's personal experiences, which is why the even more important point than that is the hypocrisy of those who make such assumptions about me while critiquing my own. Not saying you're in that category, but you're on the same side of this issue as many of those who do.


    If a biology textbook said the human body has two arms and two legs, to contrast it with other species, would it be able-ist? Obviously the question then becomes where "the many" end and "the few" begins.


    Not really. Bear in mind the context. The context is a debate where one side of this issue is the most prone to supposedly wondering "how mindlessly horny do you think teenagers are?" Well, horny enough to risk a lifetime of dire poverty for a moment of pleasure. If that's one harm that comes from said arousal, there's more where that came from. THAT was the point of bringing up the risks they take.


    No, I've been quite willing to pick my battles more carefully when that's the most pragmatic thing to do. I'm not sure "giving in to those whose 'resistance' essentially consists of the same tactics QAnon uses" is one of them.

    The standards of scrutiny for a sentence of incarceration, community service, and probation do not apply to removal from school or relocation from one part of the school to another. Their freedom of movement is already restricted when the law tells them to show up for school. Is it really a bridge too far to have a lower standard for sending them home instead than for sending someone to jail?


    Would that make people listen, though? That movement doesn't seem to have a track record of rational thought. Again, they'd be just as quick to insinuate these sorts of things over enforcement of cellphone policies as enforcement of dress codes.


    Shaming of said student by their classmates beyond what is warranted, impaired judgment, distraction, etc. Arousal isn't the only problem, of course. It's just another one to consider.


    I think you and I are interpreting the word "sexualization" differently. If by sexualization you mean acknowledging that teenagers are hormone-addled creatures, that is simply an acknowledgement of reality. If by sexualization you mean treating teenagers as sex objects for older adults' gratification then of course that would be unacceptable. But the former need not imply the latter.

    Now, if we were talking about elementary schoolers, that would be a different matter; the debate would be over whether to get them accustomed to dress codes before they hit puberty rather than giving them these freedoms only to subsequently take them away as they grow up; but that's distinct from trying to pretend teenagers don't have sexual thoughts of their own.

    . . .

    EDIT: Looking at it again, I can see how that particular story from B.C. could be considered a poorly written dress code. Even so, it bothers me to see the protesters pass judgment on the teachers for what might for all the students know have been an honest attempt to enforce the dress code as they interpreted it against attire they might have interpreted as circumventing it. It's not like every school puts dress codes to a teacher vote every year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. Regan@Off2Class,
  2. nstructor
Total: 573 (members: 3, guests: 510, robots: 60)
test