OK kids know more about evolution

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by 3Sons, Apr 20, 2014.

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  1. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    ... before taking Biology, according to a recent study.

    Apparently about 25% of the science teachers in OK don't accept evolution, which could have something to do with it. This seems to be an utter travesty to me, and the sad thing is I anticipate Oklahoma will do nothing to attempt to change this.
     
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  3. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    [​IMG]
     
  4. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    In all seriousness, though, it's despicable. I can't believe that we (as a society) allow that sort of thing to go on.

    I'll add this:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Unfortunately, there are states in the union that encourage this type of nonsense. Some states have laws specifically allowing ID to be taught in science classrooms. Barf.[​IMG]
     
  6. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    I'm missing the despicable part. Care to elaborate?
     
  7. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    The part where children are told unscientific drivel in a science classroom that makes them actively worse scientists.
     
  8. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    I see.

    I'm not trying to nitpick words, but that doesn't necessarily seem despicable. And I'm not a creationist. I mean, without starting some sort of religious debate here, OK is in the heart of the Bible Belt and that is what they believe in. I'm not saying it is right, but they think it is right. Its not like they're teaching something they know is wrong.
     
  9. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Science should be taught in science class. Creationism isn't science. It shouldn't be taught in science class. That's the whole problem here. If a science teacher doesn't believe in science, and isn't willing to teach science, then they should stop being a science teacher.
     
  10. KinderCowgirl

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    Therein lies the problem. Teachers aren't supposed to be teaching what they believe, they are supposed to be teaching facts. If any of these kids want to grow up and become scientists they will be far behind their counterparts who learned, you know, actual science.
     
  11. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Well, I think you're overstating the value of simply believing that all things sprung from divine creation. Or I'm more ignorant on the matter; could be.

    I don't think creationists don't believe in evolution. I think they just think we all were created by a god at some point in time, and we evolved from that point. And then, reconcile any inconsistencies going forward. In this regard, I don't think it is drastically different than evolutionism, who obviously cannot say with certainty either (obviously not having been there). In both beliefs, there is a level of conjecture.
     
  12. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    If Oklahoma teachers were teaching students that god did [enter scientific teaching of the theory of evolution here], then Oklahoma students wouldn't be more ignorant of evolution after taking Biology than before.
     
  13. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    I saw this the other day that made me laugh.

    Costa Rica is a catholic country. We had the entire week off of work for "Holy Week". Holy Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday all bars are closed and you can't get alcohol in the grocery stores. On Saturday, people burn Judas. Abortions are illegal. Day after pill doesn't exist. Not a single politician in the recent elections ever even spoke about marriage equality because it would have been political suicide. Yet there is 0, zero, zip, nil, push back against evolution.

    Creationism is a weird thing people do in the USA. Dunno why.
     
  14. Shanoo

    Shanoo Habitué

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    Yeah. Don't be so sure about that. I've been fascinated by religion and, recently, religious fundamentalism for a time now.

    There are people, like you suggest, who can combine (not the word I'm looking for, but it escapes me) the two levels of thinking. God created the Earth and what happened after that (evolution) was part of His master plan. My grandmother was like that.

    Then there are others who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, modern people (not early humans) lived side by side with dinosaurs, carbon dating is wrong and a lie, ice ages never existed, and all animals were created then as they exist today.

    On the surface, it's kinda funny. And then, you think about it for a little bit and realize how sad and scary it is that there are generations of kids losing out on basic science education.
     
  15. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    Good/interesting point.

    I think beyond the evolution vs. creationism debate is our national Church vs. State debate that some people can't seem to get past. We see this debate all the time outside of the science classroom - everywhere from Obamacare lawsuits to gay marriage debates.

    Despite what some may say are very clear-cut "boundaries" between Church and State here in America, people are always pushing back by saying that the Gov't is infringing on their (religious) rights. Legally, our courts can make these decisions but that doesn't mean that the person/people/group will change their beliefs/thinking.
     
  16. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Well, there is that the Pope (John Paul, I think) accepted evolution already. There's no central figure in the other various forms of Christianity (which dominates the US) to do that.

    I'd also mention that creationism is fairly prevalent in Australia as well, from what I understand.
     
  17. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    Can someone prove to me what this survey actually said instead of assuming the fault was with Christianity and not just bad teaching? There are tons of atheists with huge misconceptions of what evolution means and the implications behind it. The article noted that it is a far more complex topic than often explained.
     
  18. hbcaligirl1985

    hbcaligirl1985 Cohort

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    So what is the issue? That the kids DONT know more about evolution or that they are being taught that instead of creationism? Because if it's the latter... keep your religion out of my child's class.
     
  19. Nate

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    It's repulsive that this was made into something worth debating over. The "intelligent design" faction (or the anti-school/anti-government/anti-information forces funding them) picked the fight, but the scientific community didn't help matters by sinking to their level and fighting about it.
     
  20. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    How would you propose the scientific community handle having people proposing (and implementing!) actual laws involving mythology being taught in a science classroom?
     
  21. physteach

    physteach Companion

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    Exactly. When people are actually getting to the point of teaching non-science as though it is science, scientists really should step up.
     
  22. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Oh. My. God.

    Brilliant.
     
  23. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Intentionally inflammatory phrases like calling someone's religion "mythology" isn't helping keep the debate civil and intellectual.
     
  24. 2ndTimeAround

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    the issue I see with the ways that evolution is being taught is that some are saying it is directed by God and some say that it is driven by completely random mutations. Neither can be proven. When I have taught it I said it was caused by a series of mutations, that when sequenced together, can lead to speciation.

    When I teach my own children, I tell them that God has developed a process for life on Earth to continue. That process led to the creation of man. But it also led to birth defects, sickle cell disease, cystic fibrosis, etc.
     
  25. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    I really don't understand how calling religious beliefs mythology is inflammatory. It is a correct description suited for intelligent discourse.
     
  26. kcjo13

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    And who says gr3 was calling religion "mythology"? Maybe he was referring to...mythology. Not religion.
     
  27. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Mythology has a connotation of exaggeration or being untrue; neither of those things would be considered accurate or polite when talking to most people who subscribe to said religion.
     
  28. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    In a science classroom, intelligent design is equally as out of place as the Greek story of creationism, or any Native Ametican theory, etc. I don't give a **** about keeping the debate intellectual or civil. As soon as you introduce non-science in a science class, you're forfeiting the idea of intellectualism.
     
  29. bros

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    Native American creation stories are pretty interesting.

    But they belong in social studies or LAL
     
  30. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Agreed. I love Greek Mythology, and it's probably my favorite thing to teach third graders, and Egyptian mythology is pretty fascinating too. All of them have a place in school, as does all the Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

    A class on world history? Culture? Literature? Philosophy? Heck yeah. Science? NOPE, period, end of story.

    It's especially baffling when, more and more, Christians themselves are acknowledging the creation story as being the allegory it was intended as, rather than reality.
     
  31. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    I think we should face that most of the religious will be highly offended at atheists calling their beliefs (accurately or not) "mythology".

    gr3teacher, this isn't a street corner. This is the internet equivalent of a private home. The moderators are perfectly free to delete your post, and they DO care about keeping the atmosphere civil. Please take some care in how you express yourself, so that the discussions are not ended prematurely?
     
  32. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    I'm not an atheist. I'm not even agnostic, for that matter. I'm just not a Young Earth Creationist.

    The moderators are free to delete my post. I won't dispute that. I also won't apologize for calling Young Earth Creationism what it is. It's mythology, it's out of place in a science class, and it's actively hurting the scientific potential of any child that is taught it as though it were science.
     
  33. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    Yes, they are forfeiting the idea of intellectualism; why are you doing the same?

    If your intention is to actually improve the quality of the education for those students, persuasion is in order; blunt attacks that are just going to entrench people in their mistaken ideas is going to achieve the opposite of what you intend.
     
  34. ScienceEd

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    I teach natural selection, adaptations withing populations that help various individuals survive and reproduc, and the various observations like morphology, embrology, DNA similarities that support the current scientific theory of Evolution. However, I also show how science is developing and as we learn new things and develop new technology we also improve our current theories to fit the evidence we are constantly uncovering.

    When I teach my own children, I tell them God knows more than we can ever explain. We as humans can guess at how God made the world and what tools He used to create it. However, we are like small babies when it comes to what we have discovered.

    I believe we should teach our students to question both accepted scientific thought and supposed Bible scholars in the search for the Truth because God reveals true Knowledge and not just man made dogma.

    People used to think the world was flat, the sun revolved around the Earth, rats came from sewage through the process of abiogenesis, etc.

    Logic and critical thinking are skills all people need to learn and cultivate.
     
  35. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    I have parents repeatedly tell me to teach 'em the basics like reading and writing in class, but don't bother with any of that "critical thinking nonsense" because we'll tell 'em what to think when they get home.
     
  36. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    That is sad. This is a great place to debate ideas and discuss them. I don't feel rudeness is a proper way to discuss items that one is passionate about. This forum has a large diverse teacher population and we should be able to listen to one another in a civil manner--wouldn't you agree?
     
  37. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    There are a lot of areas where I am willing to engage in civil discussion and disagreement. None of those areas involve deliberately trying to hurt students, or trying to make them less knowledgeable or capable.
     
  38. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    While I agree with the teaching of Evolution, those who I have met who don't aren't trying to deliberately hurt students. They are trying to pass on the religious beliefs they have been taught. Hopefully other people can educate them on the truth of Evolution. I know I try to do my best on this. I believe the problem is ignorance not cruelty.
     
  39. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

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    Unfortunately, once you* have offended the very people you need on you side to effect the change you wish to see, you have lost the debate, and the one responsible for failing to change the status quo is you.

    One of the repercussions is that such discussions dissolve into bickering, which is not tolerated in, as 3sons so aptly phrased it, an "internet version of a private home." Unfortunately, what could have been a great discussion is in very serious danger of being shut down. I advise the participants to keep their commentary to the issue at hand and refrain from making offensive and inflammatory remarks or this thread will get closed down.

    *All "you's" general and not directed at a specific person.
     
  40. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    My apologies. Personally, I am an atheist, and I *do* view all creationist views as mythology. It's completely unnecessary to the argument here, though, and I recognize stating it as a simple fact will offend and just get the thread shut down. It's also completely unnecessary because no one here has even hinted that YEC (or any form of C) is appropriate in a science classroom. I'm not asking you to apologize for calling YEC mythology, just to keep civility in mind.

    It is interesting that even though many Christians view the creation story as an allegory they still have objections to evolution. I suspect it's because they want to think of humans as always having been human. I'd bet if they were told that evolution applied to all animals other than humans they'd accept everything else in the theory in a heartbeat. The problem is that there is no justification for that.

    Perhaps Rockyguykev is right, even -- that it's not any introduction of actual creationism that's causing the misconceptions, but rather bad teaching (to answer his question, incidentally, the study seems to just give that as a hypothesis, not a proven answer). The bad teaching might be a result of various religious views even without introducing them. Or, it might be because a very well-intentioned teacher might want to avoid spending a lot of time on a controversial topic (actually, come to think of it, a teacher could introduce the basics of evolution perfectly well and then the students could go home and speak to their families and friends and pick up all kinds of misconceptions outside of school, whereas they may not have if the topic had not been introduced at all).
     
  41. allaragallagher

    allaragallagher Comrade

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    In my opinion, it's pretty clear cut, unless you work at a private school you should not be teaching or passing on religious beliefs in a science class. I don't care where you're at or how controversial the subject matter is. You are obligated to teach the science. You don't kow-tow to public opinion and hope the students will later encounter someone brave enough to.

    That being said, I imagine it's a lot easier said than done. How bad do you want to keep your teaching job in OK?
     
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