Ohio senate passes senate bill 5

Discussion in 'General Education' started by waterfall, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Mar 3, 2011

    This just goes back to my original comment--It's not about the "crappiest" of the crappy. In those cases, I imagine that it's not hard to cite the gross incompetence needed to remove a teacher. But it's NOT so easy to cite the generally incompetent practices that you can find in the average and complacent, populating classrooms today.

    Now, I know at this point people here are gonna tell me that 100% of the teachers at their school are Jaime Escalente or LouAnne Johnson reincarnates. But I'm here to tell you that some schools are not as lucky as those. I would guess that you have one, two, three classrooms in each school who have a teacher in there who, either feel secure in their employment--in which case it reflects in their teaching methods and output. Or they are lacking in class management, and their class is the routine emination of loud, unrespectful students... and/or the teacher is routinely yelling to get their point across... and so on.

    I don't understand why schools should have their hands tied, in keeping any workers who they don't feel are the very best they can get. You can't get rid of anyone who you feel is quite ordinary, but manages to do his/her part in covering their bases. Despite what you may personally see, there are LOTS of ordinary teachers in the classrooms. Sorry to say it, but why should these ordinarys have a job, and some of the best coming down the pike not? It makes no sense, and I think those who argue tenure's need should be able to see that.

    I recognize the need to protect the rights of teachers, just like Reality Check said. But this is not the way. The biggest failing in this way (tenure) is that it acts not like a filter (filtering the good from the rest) for the new blood... it acts like a plug (keeping the good, the bad, and the ordinary out).
     
  2. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Mar 3, 2011

    Not arguing for or against tenure, but I see the logic behind this.

    But, in response to what Sarge posted (I think in another thread?? Maybe this one?? I don't know...), districts can demand that teachers adhere to certain rubrics, assessments, etc., to help those teachers who might, otherwise, not put in as much as they should.
     
  3. silverspoon65

    silverspoon65 Enthusiast

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    Why isn't it easy? If you can define what makes a bad teacher and you observe it, why can't you cite it? If you can't define it, then why should anyone be fired for it?

    In most states, you have 3 years to get rid of a teacher based on a gut feeling. After that, you have to cough up a little more evidence. I don't think that's unreasonable.
     
  4. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Mar 3, 2011

    I agree 100%. I think its naive of people to think that the "poor administration can't fire bad teachers." More often than not, the teachers need protection from crappy administration! Many good teachers are thrown out simply because the administration doesn't like them or is threatened by them, or because the teachers don't just blindly say yes to things that they know are not in the best interest of the student (teaching to the state test, for example). I am extremely fortunate to work with good administration (at least in my specific building) but with a long family history of teachers I know that's a rare blessing. As others mentioned, unions do not protect jobs. They protect due process. I don't see how anyone can argue the fact that you need to prove someone has actually done something wrong before firing them. I'd also like to mention that any positive working conditions came from unions...working an 8 hour day, not working weekends, getting insurance, maternity leave, etc...thank a union.

    I'd also like to know where everyone is getting these "lazy" teachers from. I'm in special ed. and therefore I'm frequently in other teachers' classes. I also collaborate with pretty much everyone in the building. I work with fabulous hard working people that are making a difference in students' lives every day. There is only one teacher in particular that I disagree with (in the way she handles her class). However, that teacher included, every single person in my building works ridiculously hard. Every single one of them. They are dedicated professionals. Like I said, I'm frequently passing through other teacher's classrooms to pick up kids, give strategies, etc- but I wonder how all these classroom teachers are judging other teachers. When do you have time to observe them? How do you know what kind of preperation they put in at home for classes? How do you know how they interact with students on a day to day basis within their classroom? With the public turning more and more against hardworking teachers, it's disheartening to see fellow teachers bashing each other.
     
  5. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Mar 3, 2011

    ABSOLUTELY!!! :agreed:
     
  6. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Mar 3, 2011

    My observations are also based on visiting techers classrooms daily, over the long-term, as both a special education teacher and/or a substitute teacher. I'm curious as to whether you are quoting me when you say "lazy" teachers. I don't remember thinking teachers are lazy; I have said many are complacent. (It's not the same thing.)

    As to the previous comment, "Why isn't it easy?" (to cite mediocre teaching practices): Because it isn't.

    As said, there are plenty of ordinary &/or complacent teachers out there. Some of these might be otherwise decent working housewives, or just nice people (doesn't make them good teachers). It's not easy for an administrator who wants to maintain a pleasant working environment, to oust a known and maybe liked member of the staff because they are not so good a teacher. People would get upset that there pal was canned...

    It's funny how we have this messed up education system, where too many kids don't graduate, and where our performance compared to the rest of the world lags... And, it's the fault of crappy administrators "more often than not". And of course it's the fault of the parents... but put a share of the blame on teachers? Ridiculous notion, John.
     
  7. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Mar 3, 2011

    :yeahthat::yeahthat:

    I have come across few 'bad teachers.' And really loving your last sentence that fellow teachers and admins want to take away due process and protection from ALL teachers because of a few bad ones. It's just very very sad.

    Tenure should and could be revamped, just like everything else in life can, but to strip the protection of great teachers just to rid the small percentage that are bad, it's mind boggling that any educator would agree with that. In no other field can the lie of a 5 year old cost you your career as quickly as it can with teaching. Same thing with dealing with hostile admins, who can single-handedly ruin your entire career by blackballing you.

    So frustrating that fellow educators can't see the abuse that teachers face (even if it never happened to them) it's happening to thousands of others.

    The teacher I considered to be a bad teacher---I was in there with her about 35 hours that week so I had a good idea-- (yeller, down-talking the students etc), was adored by the principal. So there it goes again, principals play favorites way too often. That's not the fault of the good teachers out there.

    That's why teaching has been so easy to attack, there is no or very little camaraderie in the field.
     
  8. EMonkey

    EMonkey Connoisseur

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    Mar 3, 2011

    I agree with the sadness of of other teachers attacking each other. It sounds like a lot of not so nice judging. The union do not hire the teachers, the unions to evaluate the teachers, and the unions do not fire the teachers. If the contract written has given way too much due process then the board and the superintendent can rewrite it and work a fairer due process. The district also does have the power to impose a contract if the district really believes the due process unfair. I do not like imposition (it was done to my district recently) but if the imposition is within reason there is no way the union would be able to go to courts and force the district back to negotiation.

    In my first year I was treated very well, I had a good evaluation, and I was told I was doing an outstanding job for first year. That same year a woman who had graduated from the same college as I was working at the same school, she was harassed by the principal to a point where she left the district to teach elsewhere. She was not doing a horrible job, she was good to the kids, she was just new. I came back after my first year to the same school same principal-the other new teacher was gone. The principal before the year even began threatened me with the fact she could choose to fire me at the end of the year. She proceeded to come into my classroom daily. She sat in for an entire day once. She gave vague undefinable orders to improve with. She would come in and search for something to complain about-once she hunted throughout the room for a complaint until she found a pencil somewhere, then I got to sit and listen to her berate me about untidy rooms. The woman loved to power trip. She also harassed the tenured teachers but couldn't threaten to fire them because there was no true basis for her harassment. I was moved to "one of the hardest schools" in my district due to consolidation that year. I was really worried; but I suddenly went from being harassed to appreciated and supported.

    After that experience and seeing what bullies principals can be; I would never support the undoing of due process before firing (which is what tenure in the k-12 schools is). I would never want to fear being fired because a mom was peeved her little angel was not an angel and I had to tell her. I would never want to fear being fired because a kid left a pencil on the floor in my classroom. I would never want to fear being fired because the pay I receive is more than someone with much less experience. I would never want to be fired because I was willing to stand up in support of the best teaching format for the children I teach. Get rid of tenure and that is what people would need to fear.
     
  9. silverspoon65

    silverspoon65 Enthusiast

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    Not sure what being an "otherwise decent working housewife" has to do with teaching.

    Secondly, protecting morale might be one reason an administrator might not come through and slash a bunch of jobs at once. It may or may not create a horrible work environment for the teachers, which is also not good for the kids. However, that is AGAIN the decision of the administrator and has nothing to do with unions.

    I think we DO need to put a share of the blame on certain teachers, too. In fact, I am the one advocating for administrators to gather evidence and fire them. There are plenty of teachers where I am now who really need to move out the door. But our admin spends about 20 minutes a year in each of our classrooms. That is disgraceful. But it would also be disgraceful for them to be able to say "Hmmm, I haven't really spent time in your classroom, but I don't think you are really that good, so we are going to let you go." The job I left requires admin to be in classrooms or doing other instruction-based duties 75-80% of their day (they have to keep journals). Additionally, the district admin were probably in your room a couple times of the year, the instructional coach and department chair were in a few times a month, and other teachers were required to observe classrooms a few times a month. And there weren't many bad or even mediocre teachers there because 1. someone is always in the room so you are always on your toes and 2. they got rid of them in the three years before the teachers got tenure.
     
  10. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Mar 4, 2011

    I really hate to report this news, but a group of union protesters followed a group of state senators to where they were having dinner (a place, I must add, I frequent when I can) and started a shouting match. The restaurant owner had to call 911.

    http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/liv...s-into-restaurant.html?adsec=politics&sid=101

    Ugh. This is not the way to get a point across. I'm afraid this will become what people think of when they ponder those against the bill, which is still in the Assembly.
     
  11. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    Mar 4, 2011

    Hopefully these "union protesters" wont turn to violence and start breaking legs, smashing cars, etc of people who oppose them.
     
  12. nstructor

    nstructor Cohort

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    Mar 4, 2011

    I'm with you waterfall! No teacher can judge any other teacher unless they're in that classroom daily for a long period of time! That's crazy too-some of these responses calling teachers lazy. I've always worked at urban schools and have NEVER seen a "lazy" teacher in my life! That's impossible!!!!!!!
     
  13. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Thankfully, the restaurant owner, one of the nicest guys to set a plate of saganaki aflame, was able to keep the senators from more than a verbal lashing.
     
  14. bandnerdtx

    bandnerdtx Aficionado

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    Mar 5, 2011

    I work in a non-Union state, so we've never had collective bargaining or tenure, and I'll tell you we have just as many "crappy" and "complacent" older teachers as those states who do. Firing *anyone* isn't easy, in education or anywhere else.
     
  15. cheer

    cheer Comrade

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    Mar 5, 2011

    :thumb:
     
  16. Emily Bronte

    Emily Bronte Groupie

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    Mar 5, 2011

    So true. I have had many a second job in addition to teaching and there are just as many lazy and crappy private sector workers and it was no easier to fire or get rid of them.
     
  17. Missy

    Missy Aficionado

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    Mar 6, 2011

    This bill is about so much more than just tenure.

    Kasich says the bill is to allow districts to deal with budget cuts; we have had budget cuts in the past and dealt with them on a local basis.
     

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