National Experts Submit Legislative Testimony Against “High Stakes Testing”

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by teacherman1, Apr 6, 2014.

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  1. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    What do you consider reasonable tests during the year since you nixed DRA and DIBELS at the elementary level?

    There are complaints about the standardized test at the end of the year because it takes multiple tests to test reading, writing, math , science, and SS. If you stop testing science and history, schools stop teaching it in some cases (not all). So, what 1 test is acceptable.
     
  2. Honest_Teacher

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    There are MANY types of biases that are present even when professionals are the ones doing the evaluations; I'm well aware of that as a teacher, which is why it's so essential that my formative assessments and anecdotal observations be buttressed with actual measurable, collectable data that is free of said biases.
     
  3. Honest_Teacher

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    I doubt there will be an answer; the tendency to complain without offering an alternative solution is a universal human condition.
     
  4. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    The only students who get non-EOC certificates (they're not diplomas) are those with hardcore IEPs. The vast vast majority of students are expected to take the EOC exams. The only difference in actual diplomas is modified, standard and advanced, which depends on many factors, including number of EOC exams passed. Even the modified requires specific SOL tests to be passed, though. Students cannot avoid SOL tests completely and still get a diploma.

    But like I said, I've never seen a VA high school actually deny a diploma solely based on not passing the SOL exam. They give out waivers without a second thought.
     
  5. EdEd

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    DIBELS & DRA have instructional utility, so I wouldn't count those as useless, high-stakes tests with not instructional utility. I also wouldn't consider it a "loss of instructional time" because assessment is a critical feature of instruction.

    If you're school is taking 3 criterion-referenced tests all for purposes of accountability, I agree - that's too much and redundant.
     
  6. EdEd

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    The problem with this argument is that, if you're accurate, you've based your perceptions/understanding of the child's reading ability on something, and chances are that "something" is a psychometrically sound assessment, such as the DIBELS. So, there really isn't this "either or" argument - either we use assessments OR we use teacher judgements. Teacher judgements are (or should be) based on good assessments.

    There's nothing wrong with building a consistent, district-wide (or even statewide) assessment program - it allows comparison between schools, and if kids move from one class/school/district to the next, between years, etc.. In fact, it would be inappropriate if each teacher were to be expected to develop his/her own assessment system independently.
     
  7. EdEd

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    Weighing in on the "reasonable amount of assessment" argument, I think it would be helpful to be specific and look at actual amount of instructional time lost because of non-instructionally useful, high-stakes tests.

    Again, if a test is helpful in planning instruction, it's not a loss of instructional time. So, teacherman, how many days are lost out of 180 each year due to high-stakes tests in RI?
     
  8. CindyBlue

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    Agreed, up to a point.
    But...what if the tests are biased? When the tests don't match the curriculum? When there are so many tests that those tests highly impact class time /learning time? When those tests determine how a school is ranked and how a teacher keeps/doesn't keep his/her job? Why should the "standardized tests" determine the curriculum (i.e., some schools stop teaching art and history and science etc. because "it isn't on the test)?
    Why can't the tests I so carefully and professionally write, based on what I so carefully and professionally planned and taught, following a clearly established/standard curriculum as planned by me and my department, be considered more indicative of what my kids have learned than a test that someone else (especially a publishing company) has written?
    I think we need to trust teachers more, not less. With all the study and practice and work we go through to get that teaching credential, we should be considered professional enough to make the decisions about our students.
    Just sayin'...
     
  9. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I don't think there's any doubt that teachers should be expected to create assessments that measure mastery within and across the teachers' curriculum, but there's a need for a consistent assessment across classes when it comes to things like identifying risk levels, measuring progress across years, etc. You're really talking about 2 kinds of assessments.
     
  10. CindyBlue

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    Yep, you are right. I am talking about two different kinds of tests. And I'm saying that my professional tests and assessment of kids based on a year's worth of testing and observation should count more highly than a "standardized test" should. That there should be only one "standardized" test, if any, and that the results should be used only by the individual teachers and departments and the individual school to evaluate their own performance, not by the government to use to close schools and fire teachers.
     
  11. Honest_Teacher

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    1) If the tests are aligned to the standards in that content area and don't align with the curriculum, the curriculum is the problem.

    2) Why should YOUR grades determine whether YOU keep your job or not? Why should YOUR grades determine how a school is looked upon by the general public? Grade inflation is an insidious problem that's been around for decades; why do we have grade inflation if teachers are such professionals that they need no accountability?

    3) Teacher programs are notorious for a lack of rigor; no other job gets to say, "I studied hard to do this, so we need to ignore all data that indicates my efficacy and trust me instead."
     
  12. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Apr 7, 2014

    HT,
    Have you begun your HST yet? They have in New York, and you can see how teachers and parents are reacting to it day by day on http://testingtalk.org/

    Here's one from this afternoon:
    What are we doing to children?

    Author: Leslie Abel, Teacher
    |
    State: NY
    |
    Test: State test: Pearson
    |
    Date: April 7 at 4:53 pm ET

    This entry is for the amazing teachers and students with whom I work on a day-to-day basis and for all teachers across New York State. The testing company used by New York to create state mandated English Language Arts tests DOES NOT know how to interpret or assess the Common Core State Standards. The company is in the business of marketing testing documents, not in the world of working with children. The work teachers have been engaging their students in around close reading – reading to know and analyze characters, reading to notice craft and structure, thinking about why authors make certain writing moves, and which perspective they are writing from – was NOT tested on this year’s ELA. The work we have been doing around reading is thoughtful, engaging work that fosters life-long readers who are “noticers” and thinkers. We have taught students to go back to the text to find evidence that supports their thinking. But we have not, and will not, teach students how to answer ridiculous multiple choice questions like those presented to students in grades 3-5: poorly worded, difficult for the best of readers to make sense of, constructed in a way that demanded the students spend an inappropriate amount of time referring back to the text. What was assessed was not anything like any reading and comprehending any adult would do. Why, then, are we asking 8-, 9- and 10-year olds to read this way? Why would we ever want them to think that that is what reading is all about?
    I have been a literacy coach for 21 years, working with teachers to adjust, align, and improve our curriculum and instruction to help our students become the best readers and writers they can be. In addition, we wanted them to be prepared to take the NYS ELA. Never did any of us imagine it would look like this. It was bottom-line offensive. We are not opposed to good assessment, assessment that informs instruction. What was created by Pearson will do NOTHING to inform our instruction. It in no way reflects anything close to what we believe is good for students.
    Thank you, amazing teacher with whom I work, for holding onto what we know is best for children and not folding to the pressures of mandates and bad testing.
    Thank you to the steering committee for allowing our voices to be heard and for believing in teachers. We can only hope that our administration and state representatives will listen, too.


    *disclaimer: Anything I write on AtoZ is a reflection of what I've seen locally and what I glean from national news. It is my opinion and my opinion only. As far as I know, I'm still entitled to it .....
     
  13. EdEd

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    Apr 7, 2014

    I do think "accountability" needs to happen, but agree that standardized tests alone aren't the right way to do that. The government is the group of folks that organizes and administers education, so I think it's fair they have the right to evaluate the system and hold folks accountable. The question is how.
     
  14. EdEd

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    Demonized Pearson is pointless and inaccurate. They make many products that a variety of professionals use for great purposes all the time. They also employ many educators with real-world experience, and have many products that meet rigorous psychometric standards. I'm not saying I approve of a single, private company having that much control over public accountability, but saying Pearson has no professional experience, puts out no products of educational value, or otherwise trashing the company itself is, in my opinion, a lower form of argument in which people want to trash people/companies, not ideas.

    The comments above also reflect a lack of understanding, as we've been saying multiple times, that there is a difference between assessment for accountability and assessment for instruction.

    Here's the fundamental problem with the "resistance" as some folks are now calling themselves - they're using emotion, personalization, & hyperbole in place of rational, critical, and constructive analysis. No one is going to take people seriously if their thoughts aren't well put-together, even if they're right underneath it all.
     
  15. GTB4GT

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    Apr 7, 2014

    being somewhat cynical about the efficacy of the government to manage anything, the other nagging question is "are they capable of doing so"?
     
  16. CindyBlue

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    Apr 7, 2014

    Because I'm damned good at what I do. I find it insulting that you are implying that I'm a cause of grade inflation...how do you know that? Why shouldn't my grades be used for accountability? They are a darned sight better than having a stranger (or strange entity) who knows nothing about how professional my department is and how we have decided to teach our subject evaluate our kids. Common core standards are definitely lower than our department's standards...so why should I have to "dumb down" my classes just to comply with theirs? Why do you automatically assume that I matriculated at a college that has a lack of rigor? If I, and other teachers, are not to be trusted, then we should just close all the schools, because what's the point of having teachers in the classroom who can't be trusted?
    (...disgusted sigh...)
     
  17. GTB4GT

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    I will say as a self-admitted newbie to this profession, no other line of work seems as interested in self-flagellation (or eating their young) as this one appears to be. The conclusion that I draw is that our colleagues on this site must really see a large number of their peers who in fact are incompetent. and that truly is saddening or frightening.
     
  18. CindyBlue

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    You have no idea how much better I feel to read your post...I was feeling very depressed. I am far from being a newbie - this profession is my passion and my life. I totally agree with you, and thank you.
     
  19. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Certainly a valid question, but one that has to be answered "yes" if we're going to have a government at all.
     
  20. Honest_Teacher

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    Apr 7, 2014

    You're right, of course; we should all be allowed, individually, to create the assessments by which we're evaluated for our profession.

    Read the post above about emotional responses and terrible arguments; this post is a great example.
     
  21. EdEd

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    I actually don't think it has to do with quality of teachers. We need commonly administered assessments to be able to make statements across grades, kids, schools, etc. Even if every teacher crafted perfect assessments, they'd still be different and therefore wouldn't allow us to use the data in the way we'd need to.

    Here's another reason for commonality: Kids move between schools. In some areas, quite often. What happens when your department at your school decides to teach your subject in a totally different way than other schools? Not saying it's morally wrong to do that, but practically - if we're going to effectively serve kids whose parents move in the middle of their high school career - we need consistency.

    I know the conversation can easily become "we can't let you do your own assessments because you don't know how and are incompetent." It may sound like that, but there really are strong reasons aside from teacher competence.
     
  22. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Apr 8, 2014

    Students in Finland take one standardized, high-stakes test. Ever.
     
  23. GTB4GT

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    EdEd...my post was a bit TIC but I have made this point before. No process, business or organization can fix itself from the middle. To improve the state of things in a complex system, improvement needs to happen at the very top (at the federal and state level) and at the local level (school and district level). Plus a2z makes some compelling arguments about "fixing" the education of educators. Only when these things happen IN CONJUNCTION with raising the bar for teachers (not in lieu of) will we start to see more than incremental changes in the process. (imo)
     
  24. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Agreed.....
    Assessment is assessment and teaching is teaching. And since NCLB began (at least in Providence) teachers found themselves doing more and more mandatory testing. You can argue that DIBELS and DRA are instructional, but they tend to be redundant and simply reinforce what the good teachers already know through close work with their students.

    For example, the DRA takes 20-30 minutes per child and is done one-on-one with the classroom teacher. In a class of 25 that's a minimum of 500 minutes of instructional time lost. So that's 500 minutes in September, 500 minutes in December and 500 minutes in May. That's 1500 minutes.

    The DIBELS testing is also done one-on-one with the teacher. This one takes less time (maybe 10 minutes per student) and is done three times a year for every student.
    That's 750 minutes.
    But, with DIBELS you also have to "Progress Monitor" the lowest kids - and that's once a month. If you have 10 low kids in your class that's another 100 minutes/month in the off months.
    That's another 700 minutes.

    Close to 3,000 minutes (50 hours:eek:) of required standardized testing to tell me stuff that I already knew.

    Then we add the High Stakes Standardized Testing on top of that and wonder where our "instructional time" went!

    TM

    *disclaimer: Anything I write on AtoZ is a reflection of what I've seen locally and what I glean from national news. It is my opinion and my opinion only. As far as I know, I'm still entitled to it .....
     
  25. CindyBlue

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    Apr 8, 2014

    Darned right I'm emotional about this subject. I have watched schools and respect for teachers go downhill for years, and suffered through years of people who think the way you do try to fix it and fail, with programs that didn't work and which have demonized and demoralized teachers and students and school communities.
    I stated that I am the best person to evaluate the students I've seen and with whom I've worked all year and know better than anyone else. My arguments are as valid as yours. You think that yours is the only valid opinion, and all you seem to be able to do when someone posts an opinion that doesn't agree with yours is to be insulting. So much for discussion.
     
  26. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Apr 8, 2014

    Still waiting for a response, Teacherman. What are those reasonable assessments?

    By the end, do you mean once formal education is over? If so, what is really the point at that point of doing that? It isn't as if it showed bad results it would be any more accepted than the 3rd grade and HS assessments that are the only mandatory ones from NCLB. They were never accepted and it wasn't as if kids were being tested in extreme amounts.
     
  27. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Okay,
    In my ideal 2nd grade classroom (my area of expertise), I would have the EOY Standardized Test results from the previous Spring for each child along with the Permanent Record folder. Preferably, I would receive these in August, before school started, to review them and form reading groups. Then we could hit the ground running the first week of school.

    With continuous assessment going on during my regular reading groups, personal conferences, Writer's Workshop and weekly Spelling Tests I will have more than enough feedback to guide my instruction for the first 4 months.

    Just to keep TPTB happy, throw in a DIBELS or DRA or PALS or AIMS test before Christmas to demonstrate how they are progressing and give me additional feedback on strengths and weaknesses I may have missed.

    Then, at the end of the year have one major test to demonstrate what the class learned throughout the year. This will also give administration "evidence" of effectiveness of me and should be passed on to the next teacher to help them determine reading groups etc. etc.

    TM

    PS Note that, with the above schedule, I would re-capture a large chunk of actual instructional time when I can actually teach:eek:hmy:.

    *disclaimer: Anything I write on AtoZ is a reflection of what I've seen locally and what I glean from national news. It is my opinion and my opinion only. As far as I know, I'm still entitled to it .....
     
  28. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Apr 8, 2014

    Completely agreed. Well said.
     
  29. EdEd

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    I won't stand up for the DRA, particularly when using alongside the DIBELS, but I completely disagree that DIBELS simply gives information that a good teacher already knows. Progress-monitoring gives absolutely vital information about overall progress with reading that a good teacher can't simply guess at. There's no way a good teacher, for example, could guess between 65 and 75 WCM. There's no way a good teacher could guess at whether a child's WCM ROI was 1.4 vs. 1.9 WCM/week. Error analysis, when done at the beginning of the year, gives a teacher a quick snapshot into the child's reading skills, particularly with decoding & fluency. I do think a teacher would pick up on those deficits if working individually with a child over the course of a month or so, but that would be far more time consuming than 10-30 minutes spent in late August. It also allows for reading groups to be formed more accurately and quickly.
    On top of that, there's also evidence that progress-monitoring does actually lead to improvements in reading.
     
  30. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Cindy, the problem is that - even if you're a great teacher - there are plenty who need improvement. Not blaming the entirety of educational achievement on poor teaching, but I've seen it as a significant variable across many schools and several different states/districts in which I've worked, and a part of my job over the years has involved classroom consultation.

    The challenge, then, becomes how to grant professional freedom to teachers who really do have it together, while implementing more specific expectations for those who don't. I've advocated for there being certain instructional expectations set in place, but with teachers being allowed to choose alternatives if they can provide solid evidence for their choice, and implement a self-evaluation plan (including at least some standardized instruments such as DIBELS/AIMSweb) that allows the teacher to measure his/her effectiveness and demonstrate that effectiveness to building leaders.

    In short, I don't think the question is "should we have accountability," it's how we do that in a smart and meaningful way.
     
  31. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I can't see how you'd form meaningful reading groups off a cumulative folder and state test info.

    Also, there are a variety of supplemental support programs that use beginning of year assessments for placement, identification of services, etc. I would be very uncomfortable using end-of-grade tests to do this placement as they're generally not very accurate in terms of instructional utility.

    Among other problems, all you have is a score for the end of year test - not specific, instructionally useful item response data.

    What "continuous assessments?" Informal observations, running records? The point is that something like DIBELS could very well be that "continuous assessment" and doesn't take much time at all. For the record, I do support informal observation as a form of assessment during reading groups, and do think teacher judgement is a huge source of info when it comes to day-to-day lesson planning.

    How would you assess progress with no baseline data? If you don't administer DIBELS, etc. in the beginning of the year you don't have anything to compare it to.

    Also, the whole idea of routine progress-monitoring is so that you can make more quick instructional adjustments rather than waiting until mid-year to see how a child is progressing. Progress-monitoring was developed as an alternative to the "wait to fail" model with traditional, high-stakes testing you're generally opposed to which waits way too long before a child's progress is assessed and support is provided.

    I'd still be interested in how many days/hours of instructional time you lose with existing high-stakes testing. Again, not counting DIBELS and things that provide instructional benefit.
     
  32. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Apr 8, 2014

    One of our local high schools did the numbers. We have 180 school days and 150 of those days involve some kind of standardized testing for some or all of the students.

    Even if some of the students are tested, it means they are pulled from instruction, teacher then has to provide remediation or slow up the rest of the class.

    It's a vicious cycle.
     
  33. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    The information you provided doesn't say much about how much time is really spent on testing students. There is a huge difference between some and all. Also it says nothing about how much time is spent for the testing. It sounds ominous, but it doesn't say anything meaningful.
     
  34. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Apr 8, 2014

    Remember Susan Lusi, the first person I addressed in my YouTube resignation back in 2012 ? She was, and still is, the Superintendent of Schools in Providence, RI.

    Superintendent Lusi recently told lawmakers that "too much testing is hurting preparation for Common Core". Maybe someone is finally starting to "get it".

    http://www.providencejournal.com/br...sting-hurting-preparation-for-common-core.ece

    She also recently (after a great deal of "soul searching") came out against using High Stakes Testing as a requirement for graduation and explains why here: http://www.providencejournal.com/br...cap-test-as-graduation-requirement-unfair.ece

    Maybe there is hope for public education in our state:)
     
  35. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

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    Apr 9, 2014

    Negative Impact of High Stakes Testing

    Author: Anonymous, Teacher
    |
    State: OH
    |
    Test: All Tests
    |
    Date: April 9 at 1:24 am ET

    On 4/5/2014 8:47 AM, J wrote:
    I am a teacher from Southern Ohio. Having taught for 30 years, I have seen first hand the damage excessive testing has done to the psyche of our students. Students label themselves as below proficient and develop the “why try” attitude at a young age. They don’t realize we all have different talents and readiness levels. Students who don’t excel in grade four may excel in a later grade or even college, if we don’t keep telling them they are not able.

    My school begins short cycle assessments the first week of school! This is a 2 and a half hour battery in EACH OAA assessment area. This is repeated quarterly.

    Along with other evaluations such as SRI, STARS, weekly assessments, test preparation, and other misc. assessments, I calculate that at least a year of instruction is lost by the time a student becomes a senior in high school.

    Tests have pushed higher level skills and application to lower grades. Students should be building skills until at least 5th grade. When those skills are solid, application can be successful. There are always exceptions, but I know so many older students that still can’t multiply. Curriculums are so packed that subjects and skills cannot be covered in depth.

    To gain more instructional time, school days have been lengthened and recesses cut. Students receive one 10 minute recess daily at the school in which I am employed. This school instructs 3rd, 4th, and 5th grades! I frequently voice my opinion that prisoners get more yard time.

    In my opinion, students were better educated before the testing frenzy.Test anxiety and mental illness are at an all time high. We are pressuring youngsters to the breaking point and killing the joy of youth and learning. That coupled with a lack of disciplinary consequences does not bode well for society.

    Sincerely,
    An Ohio Tester/Teacher
     
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