Mom needs kindergarten teachers' help!

Discussion in 'Kindergarten' started by Mom2One, Mar 13, 2009.

  1. Mom2One

    Mom2One New Member

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    Mar 13, 2009

    I have a daughter, Jane who is 5 and attends kindergarten. The school has a "natural consequences" policy which I never found out about until recently when my daughter began to have problems.

    One day my daughter came home and said that she was not allowed to participate in gym because she forgot her shoes. I told Jane that the shoes were in her backpack. The next day she told me she had to go to the office for recess because she didn't get her snow pants on in time to go out. The third day she told me her teacher told her she couldn't come into the classroom until she improved her attitude. I asked her where she was supposed to stay and she said in the hall.

    I emailed the teacher the first day and asked the teacher to remind my child to look in her backpack for her shoes. The teacher emailed me back and said that Jane just didn't put her shoes on in time and that when she wanted to put them on (prior to music/prior to gym) it was too late and she had to sit out of gym. I was very upset about this since Jane wanted to participate and just wasn't allowed to since it didn't fit the teacher's timeline of when shoes were put on. I immediately set up an appointment with the principal and teacher.

    While in the meeting I explained my concerns of my child being singled out and isolated from others. I asked for other ideas and they just both told me that these consequences are "natural." I told them there is nothing natural about losing gym and recess privledges-if you are an adult, you just miss some time at gym or recess if you don't put shoes on right away-not all of it.

    I also was concerned because my daughter was never told if you do this-you get this. These are just adult-imposed consequences at whim. There is not a list of rules in the classroom, no consequences are listed, all are just what they call "natural."

    So I left that meeting with the teacher denying that she ever told my child she couldn't come into the classroom and I felt pretty upset still but wanted to make the best of it.

    I volunteered in my daughter's classroom for two days and did notice that my child is full of energy but no more than any boys in the class. She did have to be told more than once to do some tasks.

    Since then my husband has talked to her teacher several times and the teacher has told her that my daughter talks too much so during writer's workshop. The teacher starts Jane off in a group but then she has to send her to the back of the room (behind the cubbies) to finish her writing assignments (they are writing books-many, many sentences). She has told my husband that this works and that my daughter is quickly back with the group. Although I don't think it is that great of a way to help my daughter, I have let it go until today. I know my daughter and she has a hard time beginning to write because it is a skill that although she can do, still probably has some small muscle coordination difficulties-she is only 5!

    Fast forward to today. My daughter came home and told me that she was isolated again during writer's worskhop. She told me that she was isolated right away-not even given a chance to work at her table. She had to sit alone, out of sight of any adult for all of writer's workshop to do her work for no reason at all. She says that her and one other boy are the only ones in the classroom that ever get isolated. Although the teacher told my husband that she has always given Jane a chance this turned out to not be true.

    I truly think this teacher is VERY controlling, doesn't really know the 5 year-old's capabilities are and is off base. I don't like that recess is 5 minutes at the end of the day. I don't like what they call "natural consequences." I don't like that my child is being taught by the teacher that she is so "bad" that she needs to sit alone.

    Please advise. I have already sent an email to the principal and the teacher about this incident today. What do I do?
     
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  3. Teaching Grace

    Teaching Grace Connoisseur

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    Mar 13, 2009

    Is this the only school in your area where she can attend? If you have already spoken with the teacher and principal you may want to speak with just the principal. What about changing her to another classroom at this school? Or, last resort, it is almost at the end of the year, you may just end up sticking it out until she goes to first grade. I wish you the best!
     
  4. MandaNicole01

    MandaNicole01 Habitué

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    Mar 13, 2009

    I have a student that sits at a table alone. She works best here. When she is with the group it usually ends up in a hitting/he said she said episode. I feel that by putting her at her own table I'm setting her up for success and she has been extremely successful! I do allow her the chance to move every Monday. Sometimes she chooses to stay alone. We spend our days at the rug, tables, rug, tables, she does get to interact with the other students. But for her table work she sits alone. I call it her productive table! What is right for one child isn't always considered "fair".

    As for "natural" consequences I think they are part of growing up. I don't agree that she should have missed her entire gym period. But she is responsible to get out her gym shoes. If she didn't do it at the alotted time then tough. I bet she'll remember next time. I have a million other things to remember and do without reminding students to change their shoes. If it is a problem, then send her to school in tennis shoes on gym days.
    When I think about my classroom I have "natural" consequences as well. If my children don't remember to get their snack out of their backpacks in the morning and bring into the classroom they won't have a snack to eat during snack time. They are not allowed out in the hall to get it out of their backpack. This is part of adapting to our class routine. These type of things makes the children responsible. My students know if they forget to bring it in, no snack until they pack up their backpack...usually 5 minutes after snacktime so really no big deal but they RARELY forget their snack!:)

    It is March and I feel by this time the children need few reminders of daily routines and activities. By the 3 week of school many of my "natural" consequences were in place. I think of it like this...If I forget my hair appointment at 4:00 I can't go when I remember it at 6:00! I missed it...too bad! Same for things in the classroom, kids need to be made responsible.

    However, I would never leave a student alone in the hallway to "change their attitude" they are 5 and don't know that this even means!

    Please talk to the teacher about what happened. Like I tell my parents I can't do anything about it if I don't know about it. Often children get confused and relay incidents that were very small out of proportion or vice versa. I tell parents I'll believe half of what they say about you if you believe half of what they say about me! Get the teacher's prespective/side of the story too!

    As for recess, we have our recess at the end of the day and sometimes it's only 15 minutes and sometimes not at all. It truly depends on the day/weather/children. Do I agree with it at the end of the day? No. I would love to have 2 - 15 minute recesses...But teachers don't have control of the recess schedule at my school. It's all about sharing the playground with the other classes. I hope this helps.
     
  5. Blue

    Blue Aficionado

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    Mar 14, 2009

    You need to keep talking with the teacher, no matter how you feel about what is going on. The teacher has reasons for doing what she is doing, albeit, they sound excessive. From what you have said, I wonder if your daughter is a young Kinder? What does the teacher think about her age appropriatness?
     
  6. myKroom

    myKroom Habitué

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I totally agree with Manda!!!!
     
  7. Tasha

    Tasha Phenom

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    Mar 14, 2009

    You are right that her still being 5 in March makes her a young kindergartner. I wonder if had any concerns about her maturity before enrolling her? I don't really see anything wrong with the consequences being imposed. It is March and your daughter should be clear on when she needs to get her gym shoes on and be able to do that independently. If you have concerns about her doing this, send her in gym shoes every day. If your daughter was the only one not able to get her pants on in time for recess, that is another red flag that she is either playing around or needs help at home on how to dress herself. I think having her move during writer's workshop is a good solution. It certainly wouldn't be fair for her to interrupt the other student's educational process on a daily basis and if she is working alone it allows her to focus on her own work and not on talking. Allowing her a chance to start at the group each day and try top work together is more than fair. If I was you I would think about a private school and/or possibly having her repeat kindergarten (depending on her performance compared to the other students) to give her time to mature.
     
  8. map

    map Companion

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I agree with Manda.

    Talk with the teacher. Make sure what your child is telling you is correct. I have a 5 year old myself and sometimes things are relayed differently when they arrive home. Always get both sides of the story first before making a judgement. Please send your child to school with her gym shoes on gym days. This is a big hassel for a teacher with 20 plus students to teach. It will also be easier for your child.
     
  9. myKroom

    myKroom Habitué

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    Mar 14, 2009

    With the shoe thing...
    I'm guessing that the school is one where the kids have to have specific shoes for gym that can only be worn IN the gym (not outside EVER)! I student taught in a school like that...it was quite a hassel!

    If that's not the case then I would send her to school in her gym shoes.
     
  10. starbucks

    starbucks Comrade

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    Mar 14, 2009

    Is your child's teacher being too controlling? I don't know. I don't know your child or her teacher so it is hard to say. I will say that I do use natural consequences in my K room. I have 20 kids by myself for 7 hours a day. I have to have rules, expectations and consequences. I know that most parents would have to run their households differently if they had 20 kids rather than 1 or 2. I often move children by themselves when they aren't behaving at their table or becasue they aren't getting their work done. In fact I have some kids that request to sit by themselves because they know that they work better alone. As far as the clothing thing goes, I will gladly help any student who can't get dressed themselves/put on shoes etc.. ( And i have some kids that can't), but if they are just fooling around back at the lockers or are talking instead of getting dressed then they have to pay the consequences and sometimes that means missing an activity. I don't consider myself a meanie, but I do expect them to do the things that I ask of them when they are capable of doing so. It is my job to teach them these things. First grade will only have more expectations.

    My concern with your story is that you are just finding out about it now. I try to keep my parents informed of problems that I am having with their child throughout the year. If I continually have problems I make sure the parent is notified. Kids do tend to change and alter stories that happen at school. It doesn't mean that your daughter is lying, but just that she doesn't have all the facts in her translation to you. Perhaps you could request that the teacher notify you by note, email etc.. if she is having ongoing issues with your daughter so that you know the story. You will then have to make a decision whether or not the teacher is being fair. Ask her teacher if there is anything that you could do at home to help her with her issues at school. Most teachers are very willing to work with parents to solve issues. Good luck to you.
     
  11. Mom2One

    Mom2One New Member

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    Mar 14, 2009

    Jane attended Pre-K3 and Pre-K4 with no problems. She is going to be 6 in April. She definitely has all the academic skills needed to go to first grade.

    As for her not getting dressed on time I think she just likes to socialize and therefore does what she wants when she wants. I agree that she cannot do that and needs to follow the rules. I see a need for a teacher to maintain order (I am a teacher too) however I believe students should be warned of the consequence. She was not warned. My question is why would you call a consequence natural when it clearly is teacher-imposed? For example, a natural consequence of not putting your snowpants on in time would for you to be cold outside, not for you to miss recess-that is simply teacher-imposed. I really have a hard time with these so-called "natural" consequences being teacher-imposed consequences.

    Also, shouldn't kids have a list of rules to follow? Or is that not appropriate for kindergartens? I am confused on that.

    Since I have been in the classroom I know that there are many students who misbehave yet are not treated the way Jane is.

    I will definitely send her to school in her tennis shoes now that it is nice out. That was a great suggestion.

    I do want to work this out with the teacher. I do not want to disrupt my daughter's year by taking her out of the classroom. I also do not want to take my daughter out of the school district since it is one of the best in the nation.
     
  12. Lynnnn725

    Lynnnn725 Connoisseur

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I think it is great that you do not want to disrupt her school year. I love to see parents putting their children first!

    I believe expectations should be somewhere in the room...I have 5. "Follow directions" is one of them. I wouldn't have "Put gym shoes on time" as a rule - it would just be a part of "follow directions" expecation, which would be something we talked about in the beginning of the year.

    I definitely think you should be communicating more with your teacher..let me rephrase that- I think your teacher should be initiating more communication with you! Perhaps you can request her to email/notify you whenever she has been moved and why.

    I have one student who sits alone. He is much more productive there. He still is involved in class activities during whole group lessons on the floor and group actitivies at the tables; but for independent work, he is at his desk away from others. I also have a sheet that I fill out for him each day that lets the parents know about his behaviors throughout the day. He is the sweetest little kid and I love him so much.

    Did the teacher mention that she went over consequences when the class was learning about expectations and consequences. Perhaps the children know that if they don't meet an expectation, there will be a consequence.
    When one of my students spit in the water fountain, I gave him a clorox wipe and had him clean the water fountain. There is no way we could have reviewed that consequence before the incident happened. He knew he was expected to quietly get a drink of water. He chose to do something else and had a consequence. Your daughter knew she was supposed to put shoes (or snowpants..I don't remember) on in certain amount of time. She did not do it in the expected amount of time so she had a consequence. To be honest, I would probably have my student miss part of recess...if they kept the whole class from missing part of recess because we had to wait for him/her to put on snowpants, then that child would sit out part of recess while everyone else played. I don't think they'd miss the whole recess though!
     
  13. terptoteacher

    terptoteacher Connoisseur

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    Mar 14, 2009

    Is the five minute recess at the end of the day for her class only? If not, then she probably isn't responsible for the scheduling of that.

    If I have students who don't wear the appropriate shoes, they don't get to participate in p.e. That's a safety rule.
    If they don't have a coat or gloves, they get cold at recess. I have thought about keeping them inside and having them skip recess, but I figure the parents were with them in the morning and they should know waht the temperature is outside and what their child was wearing.
    We don't leave the room until we are ALL in line ready to go. If one child takes a long time getting ready, the others 'hurry' them along. Sometimes peer pressure can be used.
    If a child is being noisy at their table, then they get to move to help them refocus on their work. Also, they don't have the right to interfere with their neighbors ability to hear. Most times, the children appreciate being able to work in a quiet area without distractions.
    I do not have every single rule posted in the room.. I have some generaly rules --one being "keep your dear teacher happy' and "follow directions quickly'


    We all have our repeat offenders. Those students who seem to need repeated intructions on the rules and consequences. If one of my repeat offenders breaks a rule, the consequence might not seem as "fair" as if a new offender did the deed. If Johhny is always talking, and has struggled with that all year, then I will have him move to a quiet spot. If Jack who never talks, is talking at the wrong time, I will give him a reminder to be quiet. Someone who isn't familiar with my class might see that as unfair. Is it? I don't think so.

    I don't know why I wrote all that other than to say that I don't think the teacher's rules or procedures are out of the ordinary nor are they too harsh. By March, your child should know what to do and when to do it. She also should know what is going to get her those natural consequences.

    The only thing she should've done is to inform you all along that your child was having difficulties following directions.
     
  14. DrivingPigeon

    DrivingPigeon Phenom

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    Mar 14, 2009


    I agree with this. With 21 students, I can't keep track of things like gym shoes. They know when we have gym, and it's posted on our daily schedule pocket chart. If they come in the room in the morning and see "phy ed" they know they need their gym shoes on. I stopped reminding them after the first month. However, I still have kids who forget, walk all the way to phy ed and say, "I forgot to put my gym shoes on!" I would never make them sit out, though. They just end up being late, which doesn't make the phy ed teacher happy.

    Another K teacher has problems with a girl who doesn't dress in time for recess, and she has had her stay in many times because she isn't ready in time. This girl is always wandering around and talking to other kids. They've been getting dressed in winter clothes for almost 5 months now, so it just shouldn't be a problem. I had an issue with one of my students, so I created a sticker chart for her. When she fills it up she gets to eat lunch with me. Now, the other kids cheer her on to get ready in time!

    I talk to my class about their "jobs" and "responsibilities" often. If I see them wandering around and talking when they should be getting ready for recess, I ask them, "What is your job right now?" If they forget to put their gym shoes on, or forget their take-home folder at home, I remind them that it is their responsibility to remember these things (we have talked about the definition of responsibility a lot).

    Maybe you could talk to your daughter about these things. Explain that when she is at school she is "working" and she has a lot of "jobs" throughout the day. What is her job when she is getting ready for recess? Is it to visit with friends? What is her job during writer's workshop? Explain it in a way that she will understand. Her job is to write. Why? So she can be a really good writer! Can her friends be good writers when she is talking to them?

    As for the teacher, I would just address and document things that come up. That way, if you need to meet with the principal again you'll have a list of concerns and contacts.
     
  15. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I haven't read anyone else's responses yet, so if I duplicate any, I apologize.

    You state that your daughter will be 5 in April. That's VERY young for someone to be in K right now. VERY young. Developmentally there are some things the teacher may be asking her to do that are not appropriate. It's not the teacher's fault and it's not your daughters fault. It's just that your daughter is still 4.

    Have you thought about having her do K again and giver her some time to mature before moving on to 1st grade? It might make the world of difference for her.
     
  16. Proud2BATeacher

    Proud2BATeacher Phenom

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I was going to say the same thing Tracy.
     
  17. JaimeMarie

    JaimeMarie Moderator

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    Mar 14, 2009

    HOLD ON!! She isn't going to be five until APRIL!!!!!!!!!!!

    Well that is your problem right there. She is REALLY YOUNG! At least in my state she wouldn't even be in kindergarten yet. They have to be five before October 15th. I find that my August, Sept, and Oct. babies are the ones that stand out as being socially not ready. I have two this year I am on the fence about keeping back. They just are not ready to be in first grade. They need play time and so on.

    Anyway I agree that if my students aren't ready for gym or recess they will miss out. I give them plenty of time to get ready. Of course my younger students I will help get ready because they need it. The other day one of my students decided to put both legs into one snowpant leg. He got stuck. My aide stayed inside and made him solve his problem. I took t the rest out to recess. This made my lunch break only 10 minutes long. If he does it again. He will lose his recess and go to another classroom. Did the teacher mention how many times your daughter was slow getting ready?
     
  18. Historygeek

    Historygeek Companion

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    Mar 14, 2009

    How is your daughter in Kindergarten when she won't be 5 until April??!! I didn't know that they allowed this. In our area they have to be five by October 1. Even though she may have "book knowledge" I would think her maturity is way lower than the rest of the kids.

    Either way, I think you need to communicate with the teacher when your daughter comes home telling you these things. I know my nephew who is 5 comes home saying things that are really not the entire picture. Kids this young tend to have a little bit of an altered perception of what is going on. When you do get to the bottom of it and find out the full facts about the situation you can go from there.

    I would also add that as parents we have to be careful, since we love our kids so much we all tend to take what they say as the gospel and want to take their side. I would say that you should go over the rules with your daughter and help her learn that she has to follow directions and the class rules.
     
  19. JaimeMarie

    JaimeMarie Moderator

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    HG,
    Nicely said.

    Good thing teachers don't take everything students say as the whole truth. Goodness some of the things my come in telling me would make parents want to cry.
     
  20. Blue

    Blue Aficionado

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    Mar 14, 2009

    If she is not five yet, she is too young to be in Kindergarten.
     
  21. ecsmom

    ecsmom Habitué

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    Mar 14, 2009

    I think the mom2one made a typo. The original post says that her daughter is 5. If she is going to be 6 in April then she is probably one of the older students.

    Mom2 one, I don't think the teacher is being too controlling. You don't say what grade you teach but I am sure you have expectations that are age appropriate. I am also sure that you appreciate the support of your students' parents.

    I feel the rules and consequences in your daughters class are appropriate for K, especially by now.

    I move children whenever needed. The children know that they can move back when they feel they are ready to participate appropriately.

    This year is almost over and it sounds like you have talked with the teacher. I would suggest being very proactive in seeking information about rules and consequences for 1st grade, then you won't have unpleasant surprises in March.
     
  22. kimrandy1

    kimrandy1 Enthusiast

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    Yes, I'm going under the assumption that the child is already 5 and will turn 6 in April, and that the second statement was a typo.

    I'm wondering if your daughter is doing other things instead of getting dressed/getting her shoes on (like talking to classmates, fiddling with things in her backpack, etc). And then, when it's time for the class to leave, she's not ready when mostly everyone else is. By this point of the year, the teacher is right to expect her to conform to the group rules. Sometimes, classroom rules are not explicitly stated, they are implied. For example, I have as one of my rules "Listen to the teacher." If your child is not following the teacher's routine, then she is not listening to the teacher, and is breaking that rule. I do think that it IS a natural consequence to miss out on something because you weren't ready (or prepared) in time to do it. To me, it sort of fits this analogy: The bus is ready to leave. If you aren't ready to get on it, then you miss it. Same as the line to go to gym. When the line is ready to go, she must be ready to go with it, or she'll miss it.

    If it were my daughter, I'd help her by sending her in her gym shoes, and by getting her the easiest possible outside gear to change into so that she can do it quickly.

    As for the writing, if she is disrupting other students while they are working, the teacher may not have a choice but to move her. You may feel she has a need to be with the class, but I imagine the other parents feel that their kids have a need to learn without distractions.

    Kim
     
  23. kimrandy1

    kimrandy1 Enthusiast

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    " I was very upset about this since Jane wanted to participate and just wasn't allowed to since it didn't fit the teacher's timeline of when shoes were put on."

    Well, part of being in a classroom full of kids is to learn to adhere to others' expectations and timelines. If you're a teacher, I'm sure you also have timelines for the kids in your class, although if you teach older kids, they may be very different...homework due dates, a 5 period schedule, etc. Kindergarten is the very beginning of us teaching kids how to "be" in school. Part of that is learning that you have to do what the teacher says within a certain time frame. Translate that to high school - think play auditions. The child doesn't turn in the form according to the drama coach's timelines...but still WANTS to try out. Should they be allowed? It's a good lesson to learn that you may not get to do everything you WANT to do if you don't follow all of the expectations.



    I truly think this teacher is VERY controlling, doesn't really know the 5 year-old's capabilities are and is off base.


    Most kindergartens do have very strict routines, and that's to the benefit of all. Kids are comforted by routine. And it helps everything run smoothly, too. I don't know what grade you teach, but it seems to me that you don't have high enough expectations for 5 (almost 6) year olds. I'm not saying this to be mean or catty - just that many people think the smallest kids are not capable of so many things, and they can do a lot more, and a lot more independently, than they're given credit for.

    Kim
     
  24. Mom2One

    Mom2One New Member

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    I certainly do have high expectations for my child. I expect her to listen, do what the teacher asks, follow rules (if we knew what they were it would be helpful-NONE are posted or talked about and I have been to every parent-teacher meeting), etc. Jane is on a swim team, in karate, takes piano, takes tap and jazz, goes to Sunday school each week, and is in Daisies. She is expected to follow directions and does in all of these places.

    I have to admit that last summer she did get yelled at by her swim coaches at some of her practices for talking to others in the pool. At Daisies, she can get silly with the girls also.

    I do know that she sometimes needs creative ways to get moving.
    For example, in my house we have an imaginary brother. Whenever I say to her "Let's see who is going to get on their pjs first you or Jack" she races to do so. I think teachers should know that there are creative ways to get a student to work. Jane is very eager and willing to participate in anything like this.

    I also do not see the teacher looking for the CAUSE of why she is talking so much. She wants results and doesn't care how she is going to get them-be it isolating my child. I see how isolated children are treated by their other classmates-as the "bad" kid. It is embarrassing to the child and causes harm.

    This is also something that JUST started happening. It was not happening in the fall, just started.

    I still do NOT at all agree putting my child out of sight of any adult, behind the cubbies is an appropriate action. Especially when she told my husband that Jane is only isolated IF she is socializing too much. Then, instead she went on Friday and put her at a table by herself BEFORE even giving her a chance. We were working with her at home on being quiet, doing her work and thinking that the teacher would give her a chance. She did not.

    As for the gym/recess issues I still believe it was out of line for her to miss those. I really appreciate the teacher's comment that she has the other children motivate and help each other to get ready. Then they all go out together. That is good teaching practice. I appreciate creative, nice teachers who motivate their children.

    I am not asking for the world here just a little understanding. I really appreciate those that take the time to work with students, motivate them appropriately and know what they need to succeed without the cost of isolating a child.

    I am thankful for all of the responses/opinions and do know I have to hold my child accountable. I am hopeful next year I will get a kind teacher for my daughter.

    I really have felt all year that my child is not liked by this teacher, has favorites and shows it.

    Although I am a high school teacher (and certified elementary too) this is very hard for me since she is my only child and she was very hard to get in the first place. I am more of a tender-hearted teacher and give students the benefit of the doubt (which I know can be enabling). So I am going to print out all of these responses and read them carefully to see what I need to do to help her and help myself so that she can be successful in school. I will update this after I have talked to the teacher and principal.

    I really appreciate all the responses.
     
  25. Lynnnn725

    Lynnnn725 Connoisseur

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    As for next year - start taking a look at the first grade teachers. See which one has the personality that your little girl will benefit most from. I know it is impossible to know a lot but you can get a feel for them. Observe them in the hallway...how does she get her students to walk in a straight line? Does she use a commanding voice or is she soft spoken? Which teachers greet their students with a hug or smile when they see their class? Little things like that can give you an idea of how she may be and see who would be the best fit for your child. Perhaps you have friends who have children in first grade...ask about their child's teacher's style. Then perhaps you can talk to the prinicipal about your preference. I do realize that not all schools allow you to have a preference.

    As for her not getting to the cause of the problem, I would have her document the behaviors when your child has to move. I do that with one of my children as a way to see if I can find out what sparks certain behaviors. Perhaps over time, she will be able to look back and see a trend.

    How many years experience does this teacher have?

    My child loves his seat. Everyone else sits at tables and he has his very own desk. He also gets to use my trash can since he is next to my guided reading table. The other kids do not perceive him as the "bad kid" because he sits in isolation. They perceive him as the "kid who makes bad choices" because he disrupts others and does not follow directions. If I were not to isolate him, nobody would get their work done. Now that I isolate him, the whole class gets their work done.

    I really appreciate parents who help me try to problem solve. After all, they should know their child better than I do. What do you think could be done? What needs to be done for your child to stay at her table during writing time? What can be done so that she does not bother others?

    Have you and the teacher tried an incentive program...maybe a sticker chart or something? When she gets so many stickers, she gets a reward such as "extra read aloud with mom before bedtime" or "stay up extra 10 mins" or stuff like that.
     
  26. SpecSub

    SpecSub Comrade

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    Mar 16, 2009

    While fun motivators like that are OK on occasion, kids have to learn that they are to do what they are told because the adult is in charge.
     
  27. SpecSub

    SpecSub Comrade

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    While fun motivators like that are OK on occasion, kids have to learn that they are to do what they are told because the adult is in charge, and because their following rules benefits everyone.
     
  28. Blue

    Blue Aficionado

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    Mom2One, Maybe she has too many activities.
    She may need more down time to just do what she wants.
     
  29. Kindergarten31

    Kindergarten31 Cohort

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    This is my 32nd year teaching Kindergarten. I have my masters in early childhood education and train every year in this area. In my opinion, if your child is 4, they do not belong in Kindergarten. Our criteria is 5 on or before September first. A strict schedule is very important in Kindergarten or NOTHING would get accomplished. But most of the children learn that in the first few weeks of school. And after the first few weeks, I expect them to follow it. They do know my expectations and I don't think the teacher's natural consequences are on a whim. That's why they are natural consequences and they sound pretty much like mine(and my team mates). I also have a child that sits away from the group everyday, because she cannot get her work done or anyone else at her table because she talks, and plays during work time. I used to start her out at her table each day, but each day she would have to move, so I figured that was enough chances. And she is getting her work done. I also think you have too many activities scheduled-one is probably enough. Could be she is overstimulated.
    Continue talking to her teacher and if you are not comfortable, ask that the child be moved and see if it makes a difference.
     
  30. Mrs.Z.

    Mrs.Z. Companion

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    Are these routines BRAND NEW? As a K teacher, I expect my students to be responsible for themselves and their things. I can't mommy the kids through the day. There is some sense of order, structure and routine, just as you would find out there in the grown-up world. I would practice with your daughter at home to be prepared without a lot of 1 on 1 interaction/help from a parent. As a teacher it is NOT possible to be the helper for each kid.
    One big thing kids learn in Kindergarten is HOW TO BEHAVE IN SCHOOL and HOW TO BE A STUDENT. It would seem to me that your daughter should be able to take care of these things in a timely manner. I know its hard to step back and not be the protective mama bear, but please ( I implore you) try to understand that the goal of the teacher is to help your daughter progress and mature. No one becomes a teacher to be a meanie.
     
  31. leighbball

    leighbball Virtuoso

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    In my school, we also use "natural" consequences but they are called "logical" consequences. if a child draws on his desk, he cleans it. If a kid doesn't bring sneakers for gym, he/she sits out. I taught a year of K and it was the same way.

    As for the recess thing with the snow pants...in all honesty, if kids aren't ready or don't have what they should be wearing, we ARE NOT ALLOWED to send them outside. Its just the way it is.

    I don't think your child's teacher is controlling. Maybe she isn't the ideal teacher you want for your daughter, but I'm sure Jane is learning. If Jane was one of the worst behaved kids in the class, I'd hope that the teacher would communicate more frequently.

    Also, as much as you want to believe everything your daughter says, I think its important to talk with the teacher to hear both sides of the stories. I currently teach 3rd grade and still have students who go home and tell their parents different things than what really happened.
     
  32. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    OK- here is my two cents. I teach T-1, or halvers as my kids call themselves. On days I have duty at recess, I don't have time to wait on a student. I have been known to send them to the office so that they are supervised.

    I have tables and desks in my room. Most of my students sit at tables, but some stay at desks. When I have to spend most of my morning encouraging them to complete tasks, to stay focused, and to please let their peer work, they stay at a desk.

    As far as the PE thing, if a child does not have shoes on...they don't play. We walk a distance to our gym. If we are late, another class can not start. There are two classes in the gym at once. The PE teacher does warm-ups with the class. So by your plans, two classes (34 children) would wait until your daughter decided to get her shoes on her feet. If my child was in her class, I would be upset that my child is losing part of her 30 minute PE time because your daughter will not follow the teacher's instructions. Is that fair?

    I believe that by March, every child in my room should know what is expected and be able to do it. NO, I don't have every rule written down. No, it is not a rule that we don't spit in other people's face, but all of my kids know that they shouldn't do this. By your rules (or the fact I didn't make a fifty page rule chart), if student A spit in student B's face, I should only warn them?

    I think you are making a bigger issue out of some of this than is needed.:2cents:
     
  33. pinkpotato

    pinkpotato Rookie

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    What I love about your response is that you recognize that natural consequences are intended to teach people lessons about their behaviors, but they are not supposed to be PUNATIVE. As adults, we might forget something in our house, drive back and get it, and then we're late for the party or whatever... but we aren't usually excluded from the party! We're late. It's embarrassing, and we learn our lessons.

    It sounds like you also EMPOWER students to make good choices. For pete's sake, they're only 5/6 years old! They forget and need reminders. It's developmentally appropriate to provide the scaffolds for success. You're awesome!
     
  34. mrsc_teaches

    mrsc_teaches Companion

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    It seems to me that you have not made a big enough stink about it yet. Try try try again. I think that this "natural" consequence stuff is JUNK!!!!
    If I did have snack in my room and a child forgot it and I did not let them go out and get it even after reminding for 179 days I would get SCREAMED at by the parent and then the principal would agree. Now I like my principal so she is not a b****, but we need to remember that they are ONLY 5 and soon to be 6 or already and well I think some of this is crazy.
    My dd goes to a very strict private Catholic school and this would be considered "too tough" for even them. I do have expectations for my students, they need to get their lunches out of their bookbags in the morning and put them in a crate. They need to enter and begin a journal. If they are unable to do this then they finish it during center time, that is more of a natural consequence. YOu miss a hair appt and the next time the stylist can see you is during your spin class well you have to then make a decision what is more important spin class or covering my gray.
    If this was my daughter (and I have 2 and I teach Kindergarten in a very poor city area) I would be screaming from the rooftops about this MESS!!! That is what this is a MESS!!!!! If she cant get her shoes on yes send her in them everyday but why couldnt the teacher help her??? It is march and I have 6 yo who turned 6 in Spetember and I am still buttoning pants and fixing belts. Shall I have them pee themselves or walk around naked as a natural consequence?? What about shoe strings if they come untied and she cannot tie them, does falling on her face and breaking her nose become the "natural" consequence?? I mean as an adult that is what we could expect to happen.
    Some people here have come to think of these children as "little adults" and if I remember some theorists from college said this would "NEVER" work when working with young children.
    I cannot believe that some teachers have taken such a hard nose on this subject. A child should never be treated the way this one has. And just to let you know my children know what I expect, they know I mean business and they tell the others when they come to my room for a "visit" so you dont have to be apart of the Gestapo to be a "good" K teacher.
    I may not post often but I read a TON of the posts and most times they are responded to so warmly and supportive and this time I have not felt that.
     
  35. Lynnnn725

    Lynnnn725 Connoisseur

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    Well...what caused you to miss the hair appointment in the first place?? Were you chit-chatting on the cell phone in the parking lot instead of walking in the store like you were supposed to? So, because you were talking on the phone and not paying attention, you couldn't get your hair done.


    Perhaps you should buy the pants that have the elastic inside that you can tighten as needed with the inner buttons;)

    As an adult, if I have trouble doing something, I ask someone to help. If the kid can't tie shoes, find a friend who can! It's real-life problem solving and we talk about such scenarios at the beginning of the year - I don't expect them to fall flat on their faces, I expect them to try and solve their problems.
     
  36. lw3teach

    lw3teach Companion

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    THANK YOU MSRC TEACH! I commend your post and wish other teachers could see this point of view. Kindergarten is the place to learn this "real-life" problem solving and it is NOT and should NOT be an absolute. These poor kids are going to have a poor view of school and teachers who do not help them learn what to do in situations. It is all developmental and for some it is harder to learn than for others. It seems that most of these posts are forgetting to let kids be kids and learn naturally. For heavens sakes, our job as kindergarten teachers is to not just teach academics, but to nurture (notice I said nurture) our children... not give them ultimatums.
     
  37. kimrandy1

    kimrandy1 Enthusiast

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    I don't think anyone here is not nurturing with their students. Kids need to learn responsibility...at an age-appropriate pace, in an age-appropriate setting. Five (almost 6) year old kids are certainly capable of limited responsibility - including getting shoes on in time for gym and dressing in your snowpants to go outside. Now, granted, some of these tasks may be hard for kids to do without adult help...but that is part of learning responsibility....learning to ask for help when needed! Helping kids learn to be responsible is part of nurturing. It's nurturing their sense of independence. Fixing all of their problems for them, continuing to provide multiple reminders about daily routines after 6 months, doing too many things for them...well, all of that does nothing to nurture their problem-solving or their sense of accomplishment. It'll just lead to a bunch of kids who are dependent on adults for their thinking and who can't get through their day without someone telling them each step of the way what to do.

    Not that this has to be done in a mean manner. I don't imagine any of us here screaming at kids or berating them for not getting their things done in time.

    I teach Prek, and I also have 3 kids of my own (ages 5-10). By this time of the year, I have to provide very little by the way of routine reminders to my 4 year olds....who all are either poverty level, ESL or have IEPs or medical conditions.

    I think many, many people "baby" the youngest of students and don't have high enough expectations for them, either academically or emotionally.

    Kim
     
  38. Lynnnn725

    Lynnnn725 Connoisseur

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    Mar 23, 2009

    ITA
     
  39. mrsc_teaches

    mrsc_teaches Companion

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    Obviously, I did not make myself clear enough. The 6 year old is not my personal child (my daughter or son) but a child in my class. She is 6 and has been since sometime in September and cannot unbutton her pants. Have I talked with mom? Sure have. Have I suggested other pants? Sure have. But I dont buy the clothing.
    And the hair appt? Ah maybe I was gabbing on the phone or maybe I was caught up in a convo about teaching/rasing a child. Either way my "natural consequence" is that I have to decide skip it and have spin class or get that gray covered.:)
    I do tell the children to find a friend to help them but the last thing I want is 6 kids trying to help another get her pants down. Could you see the news story?? Yes they do find help to tie shoes, but again where I teach most of these shoes have seen a lot and many times it is not just tying but relacing unraveled laces.
    I am the mom in my room, this is a completely different scenerio than some may be accustomed to. It is my job to nurture then and help the children to see that adults can help and be comforting. When they respect you like they do mommy at home the day becomes SO much easier.:thumb:
     
  40. Lynnnn725

    Lynnnn725 Connoisseur

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    I feel like telling some parents that when their child respects them like they respect their teacher at school, their day becomes SO much easier. :lol:
     
  41. TeacherShelly

    TeacherShelly Aficionado

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    Mar 23, 2009

    In my view, it's all about gently teaching. That said, I know how tiresome some behavior can get. I have a second grade girl who tries my patience with her off-track behavior which throws her off schedule. I am "for" natural consequences whenever possible. But gently! especially for little ones (and I consider all of elementary "little"!) "Gosh, love, it's already time to come back from recess. Next time, use getting-ready-time to get ready so you can have recess."

    Five-going-on-six is really young. Ideally, all kindergartners would be on time and ready for each activity. That's what all the practice and routines are for! But, reality is that some kids will try our patience.
     

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